Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi All!

I'm Mandy, I have been on the site about 5 days now. Im 29 married with three boys Jesse 12, Colton 10 and Dalton 8. I worked as a vet tech for 2 years an a groomer before that. I have a 3 and a half year old Boston Terrie named Raven. She is an absolute doll! I have grown up with dobermans as a kid, and have always wanted to own one. My husband and I decided (bravly) to take on two.

I posted first about the horrible esperience I had at the Vets while bringing my two 12 week old pups to have there ears cropped. As an update, we are going ahead and cropping Rowen in 9 days. (Making her 14 weeks at the time.) But Rayna with her sensitivity will not be cropped. Both are litter mates, and black and tan. Both are euro X Am blood, and I seem to have the best in both worlds in these two. I will get some pictures up soon.

Rayna and Rowen and all signed up for puppy classes starting the 18th of April. My husband Paul and I are excited to begin working with them. I have high hopes or doing Schutzhund, and/or Cadaver(sp?) work. I am having trouble finding the right people to help get us started. The local clubs don't seem to do much here in Maine. But we are going to keep searching. Any advice of some things we could try with the new pups, to help prepare them would be awesome! We are trying some touch and reward stuff with them now, and getting them use to the leash. They already got the sit command down pat. I don't want to over load them with commands this early.

I'm also concidering a 50/50 raw/kibble diet, I did read Kimdobes thread and it was great. Any info on how to start a pup off? And maybe a daily meal to compare to?

Thanks all, I look forward to getting to now all of you and your dogs!

~Mandy
Raven~ 3/F Black and White Boston Terrier
Rowen~ 13 weeks/F Black and Tan Doberman
Rayna~ 13 weeks/F Black and Tan Doberman
Gypsy~ 1/Sex Unknown Greenwing Macaw

:wavey:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
891 Posts
Welcome, I must say...sounds busy at your house LOL!!! 3 boys...oh my goodness!!! I have 2...how do you do it while maintaining you sanity? Mine are 11 and 9.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The Xbox helps! Now that nicer weather is here hopfully they will get out of the house more. It's been a LONGGG winter! ~grins~

~Mandy

P/S Whoever said I mantain my sanity? :lol2:
 

·
Still Here Despite Rumour
Joined
·
4,376 Posts
Hi and welcome to the forum from 1 insane Englishman and his pack of Dobiegirls!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,571 Posts
Welcome.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
420 Posts
hi and welcome from me and luna in florida. good luck with the two pups. that's a lot of work on your hands! as i'm sure you know, make sure you are able to spend alone time with each of them.

and if you're feeding half raw/kibble, make sure you feed raw and kibble separately in different meals. if mixed together in one meal, it can stress out the digestive system. since kibble is digested much slower than raw, you increase the chance of illness from the bacteria in the raw meat. naturally, a dog's system can handle the bacteria b/c raw is assimilated quickly; therefore, there is very little time for bacteria to cause a problem. if, however, the raw is mixed with kibble, you allow more time for the bacteria to make trouble.

well, that's what i understand of it, anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Hi and welcome.. As you have found this is a great place of advise..I feed my dogs 50/50 also.. Kibble in the morning and afternoon and raw at night.. I love it.. we have to freezers, One was going to be for mom and Dad but no longer.. got a deal on deer meat.. at only a $1 per lbs got 75+ and still more at the butchers for me to pick up when I have room.. Welcome again.. I am praying for a safe crop..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank Guys!

I gave the girls there first raw lunch. They had ground turkey w/ a bit of whole milk mixed in. They Loved it. Thankfully I read someplace not to feed the raw and kibble at the same time, I just never knew why. Now I do! I'm just trying to think of what else would be ok for a 12 week olds diet of raw. I did warm the turkey up a bit, as it was freezing cold. Is this ok?

Thanks again for the warm welcome!
 

·
Extraordimary
Joined
·
4,979 Posts
I don't know any responsible breeders that will sell littermates to one owner at the same time.

I thought you might find this article interesting, especially since it seems to me that your littermates are already exhibiting some of the problems mentioned in it.

Stan Rawlinson (Doglistener) talks about the pitfalls of purchasing siblings...

The incidence of owners purchasing siblings, either same sex or brother and sister from the same litter is now more prevalent than at any other time in living memory. The old dogmen and owners knew the pitfalls and problems that this action would create; however, this knowledge now appears to have been lost on today’s dog owners with devastating consequences.

On the surface, the idea appears to be highly commendable. With the busy lifestyles we now lead, it would seem feasible to take on two pups. They can stimulate each other and keep themselves company, hopefully alleviating any separation anxiety. They can also imitate the good characteristics of each other. They will be able to do everything together and therefore will benefit from that closeness and companionship, and could glean untold
pleasure from each other’s company.

Sounds fantastic! Unfortunately, the reality is far from this ideal and you really get the worst of both worlds in this scenario. The puppies come to rely on each other and it weakens both of them, often to the extent that they become withdrawn from everything other than themselves. I call it “Littermate Syndrome”

The puppies can come to fear other dogs, people and any situation where they are separated from each other. The stress this causes can often then spill over into aggression against each other culminating in fighting in some cases causing serious injury or even death, commonly known as “Sibling Rivalry”. Strangely enough the worst fights are normally between bitches.

Although nothing is set in stone, generally bringing together dogs with too many similar qualities, ie age, size, sex, temperament and breed, may spark a conflict. So many related characteristics make it difficult for them to decide who is the alpha or top dog; therefore fights occur because of the similarities.

Often, we can inadvertently cause the conflict - owners can disturb the hierarchical balance by rushing to protect the would-be subordinate from being “bullied” or “picked on” granting him/her liberties, such as being petted first, which the other dog may consider his due. The lower dog may now feel emboldened enough to challenge the other. We need to understand that dogs have their own set of social rules, whereas we humans just want democracy.

Two Choices:
To my mind you have two choices with siblings from the same litter. Whilst I believe the first solution is the most practicable, which is to re-home one of them, I am also aware it is the hardest and most difficult for the owners. If not they will always be damaged by their almost total reliance on each other.

If you decide to choose this alternative, you can home one of the dogs with another family member or a trusted friend. You will see dramatic improvements to the personalities of both pups. These changes occur almost immediately. Be aware that the longer you delay, the harder it will be to part with one of your pups. It is a difficult and agonizing decision for someone to make, however in the long run it is in yours and ultimately both your dog’s best interest.

Your second choice is to create two individual dogs, with two separate identities and personalities, without the total reliance on each other. To do this you will need to work twice as hard because all the things you did together you will now need to do totally apart.

Things you must do:
Everything must now be done independently to allow for the siblings to have any chance of becoming separate entities instead of the reduced sum of the whole.

• Walk them separately

• Feed them separately

• Train them separately

• Crate them separately

• Play with them separately

Literally everything you do should be separate. That includes Puppy and Training classes. Take them to a trainer that understands the inherent difficulties of raising two puppies together. Take them on separate nights hopefully to the same trainer. They can play together but only at strict designated times and for a period of no more than 15 minutes each designated play time.

This regime will not be for life as the pups will, after a period of about 12 to 14 months, have formed their own personalities and temperaments. At this age they will have become confident of their own individual abilities. Not as in most cases total inter-dependence to each other when siblings are raised, trained, and fed together.
Without the total reliance on their sibling for constant support they will grow and blossom into much rounder and less aggressive and fearful individuals. I cannot stress how important it is to separate the siblings until they are older. It will produce two individuals rather than an impaired two parts of the whole.

It is worth stating that it is not only siblings that have these problems. If you raise two young pups from different litters or even breeds, you can have similar problems. I always recommend my clients to wait until their puppy is 14 months old before purchasing another puppy this then allows you to concentrate all your efforts on that individual, and hopefully it will take on some of the good traits of the older more experienced dog.

However be aware that this can also have its pitfalls. It is too easy to keep the new pup in the company of the older dog, depriving him of the opportunity to develop self-confidence of his own, without relying totally on the older dog/s and their protection. You must train and occasionally walk separately, keep them apart at certain times in the day so that over reliance does not happen which could stunt the pups ability to interact with both humans and other dogs.

I think what truly annoys me are the breeders that sell siblings, and in some cases actually use emotional blackmail to push two pups. For instance "what a shame you can't take two as I may have problems as he's so small/white/little/runt etc and I'll probably have to have him put down in the end". I have no respect for a breeder that uses these tactics or that sell littermates to one owner. If they are experienced and not a first time breeder then they are well aware of the pitfalls of these actions, and that the dogs will suffer for the rest of their lives.

© Stan Rawlinson

Stan Rawlinson (Doglistener) is a Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer with over 25 years experience of working with dogs. He now has a successful practice covering London Surrey and Middlesex. Web site www.Doglistener.co.uk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well Thanks for the Welcome MaryandDobes...

The artical while interesting, and having some great ideas also has some contradictions. The same problems can arrise out of bringing in a second dog no matter what age or time. Mulit dog families have toughed it out through some of the same problems. I beleave once the pack order is determined all should go well. Though we do try and keep one on one bonding. And I will try some of the idea's from the artical.

As for thier breeder... I don't think she was being unresponsible by selling a puppy to me for my hopes and dreams of working with a dobe. And a litter mate to my husband who has waited and wanted a pup of his own for so long. I guess these pups are just doomed to "suffer for the rest of thier lives."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,150 Posts
I don't think he was trying to be ugly. He was being quite honest. I don't know anyone who would sell two to the same home or even to a home who had one near the same age. Its not best for the puppies. They bond with each other more so than their humans. One puppy usually ends up more submissive or you have horrid fights on your hand. Not normally the case if you bring a puppy into the house with older animals.
You are very welcome here, but it is a place for learning and I totally agree with his comments. After 20+ years of breeding, I have seen and heard the horror stories. One "breeder" on the net actually sold two MALES to a family with young children. That is totally outragous and dangerous. I feel for the unsuspecting new owners who really don't have a clue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
I'm also concidering a 50/50 raw/kibble diet, I did read Kimdobes thread and it was great. Any info on how to start a pup off? And maybe a daily meal to compare to?

Thanks all, I look forward to getting to now all of you and your dogs!

~Mandy
Raven~ 3/F Black and White Boston Terrier
Rowen~ 13 weeks/F Black and Tan Doberman
Rayna~ 13 weeks/F Black and Tan Doberman
Gypsy~ 1/Sex Unknown Greenwing Macaw

:wavey:
Hi MandysBlackRoses,

I would think long and hard about feeding raw to your young puppies, especially if you are a newbie to this. I suggest you read up on a few books before just tossing some raw turkey to the pups. I am mostly a raw feeder to but I really researched it before doing it and I only feed it to my older dog. I thought about feeding ******* raw when she was a young pup as I know it can be done successfully but I did not want to chance it at such an important age of development. I mean she went from a 17 pound puppy at 8 weeks to a 80 pound puppy at 8 months!! So it is very important to have a nutritional diet to help through this period. She has always had raw meaty bones to knaw on and eventually when she is a little older I will feed the raw diet. I really like the book a Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog by Wendy Volhard and Kerry Brown, D.V.M. That is just one book, there are many more. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Welcome to the board! I hope your girls bring much love and happiness to you and your husband.

We also have 2 dogs (boys) that have been together since they were pups (8 weeks) and we have no aggression issues or symbiotic personality disorders or whatever. They have their own identities and are happy.

BUT at the same time, I do think that friendly advise on adopting litter mates is a thoughtful gesture. It gives you signs to watch for, and the knowledge that problems do exist.

Looking forward to seeing those pics when you get around to them!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I just ordered a couple books, the one you mentioned and another. I have to say I am a tad nervous feeding raw, thats why I figured go 50/50. But it is more like one raw meal, and 3 kibble. They are still eating 4 times a day. I will take them down to three after Rowen is cropped. (As I suspect maybe lack of fat might of contributed to Rayna's sensitivity, like in sighhounds.) They had ground turkey for the first time today, and seem to handle it ok. They both gobbled it down. I'm also thinking about trying something besides Nutro.

There are so many choices out there, and so many opinons. This reminds me of having a new baby all over again. And as a proud parent I want the best for them, but sometimes you do what YOU think is best.

I love to hear from all dog owners, and I do take in alot of advice. I'm not sure about EVERYTHING a "good" breeder should and shoudn't do. As I'm not one myself. But she did most things right, and I'm happy with my choice in her dogs. So, I take some advice with a grain of salt, and know they are trying to help, and inform people. I know I have a life time of learning to do, and all one can hope for is to make the best choices he/she can, and do what makes them happy. Because in the end...Thats what owning a pet is all about.

Thanks Again all for the welcome.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
Oh, and I forgot Mandy where are the pics. of your little gal's?? We love puppy pictures. :)
 

·
Extraordimary
Joined
·
4,979 Posts
As for thier breeder... I don't think she was being unresponsible by selling a puppy to me for my hopes and dreams of working with a dobe. And a litter mate to my husband who has waited and wanted a pup of his own for so long.
Well, you'd sure find a lot of knowledgeable breeders that disagree with the practice. It's been discussed many, many times on the various Doberman newsgroups over the 10 or so years I've been reading them.

The breeder is supposed to be doing what is best for her puppies, not what you think is best for you and your husband. As a breeder, people ask me frequently enough to purchase littermates and they are always turned down. Again, it's about the puppies and what is best for them, not what the people think is best for them. If the breeder had sold you one puppy, it certainly wouldn't have killed either your husband's dream or your own.

As a rescuer, I have often seen one littermate having to be rehomed - particularly so when they are males, but certainly sisters can be fractious as well.

I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my "welcome". You'll find that I'm not much into the warm fuzzies, but prefer to get down to the business of actual discussions rather than "I'm ok, you're ok."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Well, I guess it's fair for one breeder to question anothers practices...

I'm glad I'm not a breeder. Neither of my girls will see a litter. Eaither way, It's not my argument really. You may be right about it not being a great thing to do, and maybe she is of a very few who would allow this. But I'm glad she did in my case. I agree I did not think of how there bonding would effect things... I was worried about being able to train Rowen with Rayna and Raven around. I ried passing out treats for "sits" with all three the other day. That was no fun. So I get what your saying...I see where it would be hard for a dog to become it's full potential, while in company of a litter mate. I don't think agression, and behavioral problems are anything speacil to my getting two litter mates at the SAME time. I think I would have to deal with that even if I had waited a year to add the third dog. Everyone who has a Multi Dog home has to deal with these issues at one time or another. Most people know not to keep to intact males of some breeds in the same house, but I think females are the worse, and I espect to have some problems with them at one point or another.

They are crate training right now, and have not seen much of each other, maybe a few hours a day playing all together. I did feed them supper seperatly tonight, so I'm hearing what your trying to tell me. Lets hope for the best with them, they are here to stay. And you need to find your warm fuzzies...It's nice to be nice. ~grins~
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,472 Posts
Welcome from Florida. My grandmother was born up in your neck of the woods. Bangor to be exact. I have not had the pleasue to make it up that way but she used to tell me wonderful stories of how beautiful it is up there.
We have a 2 year old red boy Titus and our Jada will be 6 months old next week. Good luck with your girls!
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top