[MeadowCat]

Hey guys, can anyone tell me the best way to teach her that collar grabbing is not bad?

randomly I will grab her collar, drag her over to the table that has her treats on it and give her some.

should I be doing that differently?

"Sit on the Dog" should basically be like this:

. Unemotional, not engaging with her. She's leashed safely, she has enough room to lie down comfortably, but she's can't do anything else. You don't interact with her. You don't talk to her. You need to sit in a chair so she can't climb on you. You have to have the willpower to simply turn away and ignore whatever she's doing. Once she settles down I'd probably only leave her for 10-15 minutes, get up very calmly, unleash her, and just continue ignoring her.

You need to stop dragging her around by the collar. You're teaching her that grabbing her collar is a negative thing...many dogs HATE having collar grabs. The immediate response to the collar grab is DRAGGING, not the treat. What you need to understand is that the way a dog thinks and learns is that whatever happens INSTANTLY after the "thing" is the association they make. So if you touch her collar, and she immediately receives a treat, she will begin to associate a collar grab with good things. But right now, she's built up negative associations...collar grab = being dragged around, which she doesn't like. The delivery of the treat is so delayed that it has absolutely nothing to do with the collar in her mind. To fix this, you'll have to go way, way back to simply reaching toward her collar, then giving a treat. Then, very slowly, reaching closer, then treat. It's going to take work. It will go faster with a clicker, but you have to have good timing.

If you had a trainer you liked at Paws Abilities, I would absolutely contact them and see if you can do some private lessons. I think having someone work with you one on one would be very beneficial. It's okay to not "click" with all trainers. As the weather is warmer even meeting outside is possible now...I just had an outdoor lesson this week.

 

[Nani]

Shaking as in she seems scared or emotionally distraught?

This video was very helpful! I had her leash small most of the time but not like this. This was not clear in the other instructions. I will try this tomorrow

 

[Nani]

"Sit on the Dog" should basically be like this:

. Unemotional, not engaging with her. She's leashed safely, she has enough room to lie down comfortably, but she's can't do anything else. You don't interact with her. You don't talk to her. You need to sit in a chair so she can't climb on you. You have to have the willpower to simply turn away and ignore whatever she's doing. Once she settles down I'd probably only leave her for 10-15 minutes, get up very calmly, unleash her, and just continue ignoring her.

You need to stop dragging her around by the collar. You're teaching her that grabbing her collar is a negative thing...many dogs HATE having collar grabs. The immediate response to the collar grab is DRAGGING, not the treat. What you need to understand is that the way a dog thinks and learns is that whatever happens INSTANTLY after the "thing" is the association they make. So if you touch her collar, and she immediately receives a treat, she will begin to associate a collar grab with good things. But right now, she's built up negative associations...collar grab = being dragged around, which she doesn't like. The delivery of the treat is so delayed that it has absolutely nothing to do with the collar in her mind. To fix this, you'll have to go way, way back to simply reaching toward her collar, then giving a treat. Then, very slowly, reaching closer, then treat. It's going to take work. It will go faster with a clicker, but you have to have good timing.

If you had a trainer you liked at Paws Abilities, I would absolutely contact them and see if you can do some private lessons. I think having someone work with you one on one would be very beneficial. It's okay to not "click" with all trainers. As the weather is warmer even meeting outside is possible now...I just had an outdoor lesson this week.

Wonderful!!!
I’m sorry for not being clear. After dragging her to the table and giving her a treat I let go of her collar right away. And once she tries to walk away, or if she sits, or anything else like that I grab her collar once more and treat right away. Immediately

edit: is this okay or should I remember to grab her collar anytime I have a treat on hand?
And throw out the whole bringing her to the table

ps: I am a little offended by how you worded a few things... she doesn’t have any negative associations with collar grabs right now. At least as I can tell. She doesn’t get mad or run away when we grab her collar. She follows easily.

I should have been more clear. I am worried that this sit on the dog exercise will make her dislike the leash and me grabbing her collar to put on the leash.

I am trying to prevent the negative collar grab from happening in the first place

 

[LadyDi]

Great news for the human success!!!
Pups (just like our human babies) have so much energy.
Yeah!!!!!!
To get this in their little brains...repetition,repetition, repetition.
Great job!
Bet you feel real good about yourself and you should.
Friendly suggestion: please never get offended with comments from the forum members. Always remember the reason all of us are on this forum is due to our dedication to this breed and the virtual friendships are also nice.
You may not know this yet but you are getting some really good advise from some REALLY experienced trainers.
Keep asking questions as this is a great thread you started.
Many are viewing this thread and learning along with you.

 

[MeadowCat]

Wonderful!!!
I’m sorry for not being clear. After dragging her to the table and giving her a treat I let go of her collar right away. And once she tries to walk away, or if she sits, or anything else like that I grab her collar once more and treat right away. Immediately

edit: is this okay or should I remember to grab her collar anytime I have a treat on hand?
And throw out the whole bringing her to the table

ps: I am a little offended by how you worded a few things... she doesn’t have any negative associations with collar grabs right now. At least as I can tell. She doesn’t get mad or run away when we grab her collar. She follows easily.

I should have been more clear. I am worried that this sit on the dog exercise will make her dislike the leash and me grabbing her collar to put on the leash.

I am trying to prevent the negative collar grab from happening in the first place

I'm sorry if I misread your post. I teach collar grabs using a clicker and positive reinforcement. I like clicker training because it makes most things very clear for the dog, as it "marks" exactly what behavior or action you are reinforcing and buys you a small amount of time to delay the reward once you've "loaded" your clicker and your dog understands what a click means. If you have good timing, a clicker can be really nice. I don't use it for everything for I use it for a lot of things, especially with puppies. You can also "mark" with a verbal "yes" but it's a little less precise. It still works well, though, especially for times when you are without a clicker or when it's difficult to have too many things in your hands.

Here's a video from Kikopup (who has SO many great teaching videos) on teaching collar grabs:

When I have a puppy at home, I try to keep jars of tiny treats or kibble in pretty much every room of my house so that I can "catch" my puppy doing things I like all the time. That way I can always be saying Yes! and then running over to get a reward. The more puppies are reinforced for behaviors the more they will repeat them. Even simply dropping treats as they are quietly lying down on a bed will make it more likely that they will repeat that behavior of quietly lying down on a bed. For that type of behavior I don't get excited and say "yes!"...I simply let food fall out of the sky onto the place they are. Basically "mat training."

 

[MMcCown]

Just popping in to add that I was able to get to a socially-distanced puppy class and engage a private trainer so I could get Beau going with formal training early. There should be some trainers near you that have smaller classes, mask requirements, etc. Hopefully, you’ll find one that works for you because it can be a lot of fun to engage with your dog at a class!
Good luck!

 

[Nani]

Great news for the human success!!!
Pups (just like our human babies) have so much energy.
Yeah!!!!!!
To get this in their little brains...repetition,repetition, repetition.
Great job!
Bet you feel real good about yourself and you should.
Friendly suggestion: please never get offended with comments from the forum members. Always remember the reason all of us are on this forum is due to our dedication to this breed and the virtual friendships are also nice.
You may not know this yet but you are getting some really good advise from some REALLY experienced trainers.
Keep asking questions as this is a great thread you started.
Many are viewing this thread and learning along with you.

Thank you!!!! Yes, I feel really good about this exercise. Really really good.

I will try not to take anything personally.

I know I am not a professional. But I am here because I love Nani, I want her to be happy and healthy. But above all I know how much work I was getting into before I even decided to take Nani home with me. But here I am, trying to learn and research and do as much homework as possible. I read a lot of the other threads too. And again, before I even brought her home I did so much research. Countless hours.

I wanna do right by her
And I really do realize and appreciate the profession help I’m getting (for free) on this forum.
I really do.

I know that I am terrible at texting. I have a hard time communicating without tones or expressions.

 

[Nani]

Hi! I'll chime with a few principles of operant conditioning to help you analyze what's going on and adapt your training according to what you see and what people have suggested:

(1) Reinforcement:
Behavior is selected (reinforced, strengthened) by whats follows it, usually within 5 seconds. If dog nipping human is followed by ANY attention (man yells, man jumps or man or looks at dog) and nipping is increasing in frequency, then we can conclude that attention reinforces nipping.

(2) Extinction:
When a behavior is no longer followed by a reinforcer - CONSISTENTLY - then the behavior will undergo extinction ...eventually. Here's the IMPORTANT PART: at first, removing a reinforcer actually makes us INCREASE and VARY the behavior and can make us kinda pissed off. Imagine you're pressing the elevator button and it never comes - at first you'll press it once more, then a lot more, then you'll start banging it, and maybe even let out a few naughty words. Only after a while of the elevator not coming will you stop and decide to take the stairs.

(3) Intermittent reinforcement:
When a behavior is sometimes followed by a reinforcer and sometimes not, this behavior becomes RESISTANT to extinction (as melbrod mentioned). This means it will take longer for any extinction procedure to actually reduce a behavior. This is why it's so important to be consistent!

(4) DIFFERENTIAL REINFORCEMENT
So as to avoid the downside of a pure extinction procedure (that initial increase in behavior and frustration) , we need to suspend reinforcement for the undesirable behavior WHILE reinforcing an incompatible behavior (such as picking up a toy or anything that is incompatible with nipping humans).

(5) Punishment
This is a tricky one! Generally, when we talk about punishment, there is an aversive event that follows a behavior AND reduces the frequency of that behavior. However, once the punishing agent (human who pops snout, for example) is absent, the behavior will occur again if reinforcement is still produced. Imagine the guy who would run a red light at night but avoids doing so when the police are there. Punishment can also produce unwanted collateral effects: the punishing agent (and not just the punishing act) will also start to elicit negative responses (think dog who gets anxious/aggressive with a harsh handler even when they aren't being corrected).


Finally, you may also want to see how your fiancé responds to ANY initiation of interaction by your dog. It may be that if he feeds her when she signals she's hungry or takes her for a walk if she whines or strokes her of she pokes him, then it could be she's learned he will almost always respond when she wants something . Just a hypothesis!

Thought I responded! Fantastic explanations on behaviors and some great examples too. Thank you
Ps: literally this morning my first alarm went off. And I have a second one ten minutes later. In between these Nani started whining. He usually gets up in the morning with her. Not too long after she started crying he started getting out of bed. I stopped him. I told him to wait until my alarm goes off. Then we will jump out of bed and start our morning.

I am thinking you’re right. That he’s wrapped around her little paw lol

ps: both alarms had different ringtones
I want her to associate one with it’s almost time to get up and the other with it’s time to get up.

I recently started this. I sat down with him and wanted to start waking up at the same time together. Not just for Nani. But for us too

 

[Nani]

I'm sorry if I misread your post. I teach collar grabs using a clicker and positive reinforcement. I like clicker training because it makes most things very clear for the dog, as it "marks" exactly what behavior or action you are reinforcing and buys you a small amount of time to delay the reward once you've "loaded" your clicker and your dog understands what a click means. If you have good timing, a clicker can be really nice. I don't use it for everything for I use it for a lot of things, especially with puppies. You can also "mark" with a verbal "yes" but it's a little less precise. It still works well, though, especially for times when you are without a clicker or when it's difficult to have too many things in your hands.

Here's a video from Kikopup (who has SO many great teaching videos) on teaching collar grabs:

When I have a puppy at home, I try to keep jars of tiny treats or kibble in pretty much every room of my house so that I can "catch" my puppy doing things I like all the time. That way I can always be saying Yes! and then running over to get a reward. The more puppies are reinforced for behaviors the more they will repeat them. Even simply dropping treats as they are quietly lying down on a bed will make it more likely that they will repeat that behavior of quietly lying down on a bed. For that type of behavior I don't get excited and say "yes!"...I simply let food fall out of the sky onto the place they are. Basically "mat training."

Lovely video and advice, I really appreciate it.

since the get go I have been taking extra care to stop some behaviors from happening in the first place. I figure it’s a good approach.

I agree that I would like to do more clicker training with her! I would like to meet with a trainer privately about clickers. Nani is so high energy, a clicker would work good for her. We started at paws abilities. But I don’t think I grasped it well enough to keep going with it when we left and I don’t wanna screw it up.

Oh my gosh yes. I catch her doing good things all the time and will treat her. This is the reason why we can eat in piece now too. As soon as we sit at the dinner table she lays down on her bed. I love it. And will keep enforcing it.

I think that’s a bit of the issue with the boyfriend. I tell him to not forget to reward her for good behavior. Be it a treat, a massage, or telling her she’s a good girl. Positive reinforcing for good behavior is one of the best ways I think, I honestly just think that’s common sense, it always made sense to me

 

[Nani]

thanks again so much everyone 😊

ps: I am terrible at texting. I need tones and facial features lol

 

[LadyDi]

No problem we all understand that you are working hard for you pup.
Kiko pup has some real good videos on clicker training.
Clickers are excellent especially when teaching something new.
That click noise is a real clear identifier to your dog that “yes pup, thats what I wanted”.....followed with a reward.
Order a clicker they are fun to work with For us humans.
Practice your timing.
For instance when training “sit”
We refer to this as ”marking the behavior”
The second that pups butt touches the ground.... ( no sooner no later)
The second the butt touches the ground ...
mark it with a “click”..........then follow up with reward.
You can mark it with a word but boy that click sound can be a quick teach with something new.
You have to teach your human self to time this right......click.....then treat.
Practice by yourself before you work with the dog.
Its like a few seconds between the click...and then the Reward.
There has to be a little pause in between the two motions (click then treat).

Here is a Kiko Pup video That gives you some info on clicker use.

 

[Nani]

This video was very helpful! I had her leash small most of the time but not like this. This was not clear in the other instructions. I will try this tomorrow

hey guys. A trainer said

 

[Nani]

No problem we all understand that you are working hard for you pup.
Kiko pup has some real good videos on clicker training.
Clickers are excellent especially when teaching something new.
That click noise is a real clear identifier to your dog that “yes pup, thats what I wanted”.....followed with a reward.
Order a clicker they are fun to work with For us humans.
Practice your timing.
For instance when training “sit”
We refer to this as ”marking the behavior”
The second that pups butt touches the ground.... ( no sooner no later)
The second the butt touches the ground ...
mark it with a “click”..........then follow up with reward.
You can mark it with a word but boy that click sound can be a quick teach with something new.
You have to teach your human self to time this right......click.....then treat.
Practice by yourself before you work with the dog.
Its like a few seconds between the click...and then the Reward.
There has to be a little pause in between the two motions (click then treat).

Here is a Kiko Pup video That gives you some info on clicker use.

Hey guys. About the video I shared for sit on the dog. The trainer at paws abilities said “That protocol in the video is bad. Don't follow that trainer's advice. It's unrealistic and sets the dog up to fail.”

wanted you guys to know? What do I do now? Follow the one meadow posted?

but I know Nani. She will find something to “comfort” her in that situation instead of comforting herself

 

[MeadowCat]

The video that you shared is a little bit different than some of the others...the dog has almost no room to move around at all. It can't lie down comfortably, so it really can't "settle" or relax, it can only sit. I like the video I shared better - it's more of a modified version of "sit on the dog". The original version of the exercise is very restricted, and I don't find that it works very well or is as kind for dogs. I only use a modified version...I want my dog to have enough leash to comfortably lie down without the leash being tight at all. The dog doesn't need so much leash that they can roam around, but they do need enough leash that their collar isn't tight and the leash isn't tight when they lie down. For me, this is about a dog learning that they don't always need to interact with you and you aren't always going to entertain them. It's about settling and being calm. It DOES work. I would not do it like the video you shared.

I would also do mat work and other calming exercises with her. I would do structured crate time and/or x-pen time. I'd be doing exercises to teach her to lower her arousal level.

There are many excellent trainers at Paws Abilities with a lot of experience. I know other good trainers that are independent or work with other training schools, too, if you want other referrals.

 

[Nani]

The video that you shared is a little bit different than some of the others...the dog has almost no room to move around at all. It can't lie down comfortably, so it really can't "settle" or relax, it can only sit. I like the video I shared better - it's more of a modified version of "sit on the dog". The original version of the exercise is very restricted, and I don't find that it works very well or is as kind for dogs. I only use a modified version...I want my dog to have enough leash to comfortably lie down without the leash being tight at all. The dog doesn't need so much leash that they can roam around, but they do need enough leash that their collar isn't tight and the leash isn't tight when they lie down. For me, this is about a dog learning that they don't always need to interact with you and you aren't always going to entertain them. It's about settling and being calm. It DOES work. I would not do it like the video you shared.

I would also do mat work and other calming exercises with her. I would do structured crate time and/or x-pen time. I'd be doing exercises to teach her to lower her arousal level.

There are many excellent trainers at Paws Abilities with a lot of experience. I know other good trainers that are independent or work with other training schools, too, if you want other referrals.

I would love some referrals! Sorry for not responding right away. I would love to meet a trainer who loves/works specifically with dobes

 

[MeadowCat]

I would love some referrals! Sorry for not responding right away. I would love to meet a trainer who loves/works specifically with dobes

I don't think you'll find someone that exclusively handles Dobermans, but Hannah Halvorsen that I mentioned above is pretty familiar with working breeds (she's trained in IPG and owns breeds that are not easy dogs). I would recommend her as your first contact.

 

[Nani]

I don't think you'll find someone that exclusively handles Dobermans, but Hannah Halvorsen that I mentioned above is pretty familiar with working breeds (she's trained in IPG and owns breeds that are not easy dogs). I would recommend her as your first contact.

Sorry, but I didn’t say exclusively
I just want someone who cares about our breed.
Could I get her contact info?
Edit: maybe I’m missing something. I looked through your messages here and didn’t see her info

 

[MeadowCat]

Sorry, but I didn’t say exclusively
I just want someone who cares about our breed.
Could I get her contact info?
Edit: maybe I’m missing something. I looked through your messages here and didn’t see her info

Common Ground Canine, Hannah Halvorson: Dog Training in Minneapolis | Common Ground Canine

 

[Nani]

Common Ground Canine, Hannah Halvorson: Dog Training in Minneapolis | Common Ground Canine

Thank you so much 😊

 

[Nani]

Common Ground Canine, Hannah Halvorson: Dog Training in Minneapolis | Common Ground Canine

I sent an email