[Conan]

Hi all, gonna try to make this a long story short. All in all my doberman started out with food aggression and attacked me as well as my boyfriend. He was fixed early, has all his shots, etc. We took him to a wonderful trainer who deals with dogs with aggression problems in all scenarios. He stayed there for over 2 weeks. The method used was choke chain which we still use. He is also not allowed off the leash because he gets too independent and won't listen completely. Things have been going down hill though. He attacked my boyfriend yesterday and bit his hand because my boyfriend went to grab his leash because he had gotten loose. He also "knows" I am not as aggressive with the choke chain so now he will put on the brakes when I ask him to go into his kennel. He did that once with my boyfriend but he choked him enough to where he goes in every time for him. All in all my doberman is still not trustworthy and I'm extremely upset and I wondered if ANYONE has had this experience and what to do. My boyfriend has spent over a grand on this dog in training trying to "fix" him. Were at a point where we just are lost and don't know what to do next with him. We love him dearly and would do anything for him but when is enough, enough?

And besides the fact of his aggression, I love a Doberman and this is our first Doberman as well, but this discourages us from ever having another one. No we did not get him from a known breeder, more of a back yard breeder but every dog needs a home, right? Just please give me any info and input on this.

 

[heidi's mom]

how old is he?
have you and BF taken him to school or just sent him ?
the choke chain could be causing a bigger issuer. in other words sending him into an elevated state of agression with every correction.
Have you tried Positive training ? Maybe clicker training? rewarding good behavior not just bad.. i dont have any expereince with this .. but im sure other here can help point you in the right direction... however I think that its importamnt for all in the house to take part in training.. and you cant fix this type of issue just by sending him to school.. i hope you can get some help for him

also i think you should ditch the choke chain.. you are not making training a positive thing.. choking him to get him into the kennel.. of course he doesnt want to go.... its not a positive thing.. is he your first dobie ?

 

[MsMoppett]

As you are aware, this is a serious and dangerous problem.

Unfortunately, the methods the trainer has employed have ultimately set you back lightyears in properly mitigating this problem and training your dog. Choking a behavior out of a dog does not make it a willing or offered behavior. Unfortunately, it just creates further distrust in your dog, which he had from the beginning and showed in the form of food aggression. I'm sorry, but choking a dog does not create trustworthy behavior-- it creates insecurity and fear.

I am NOT a dog training expert, but please provide us your location so we might be able to give you advice as to trainers to look into.

Also, a good place to start is reading up on the "Nothing In Life Is Free" dog training philosophy here http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm . Please understand that your dog is not attempting to dominate you or intentionally disobey you. Keep an open mind and let go all those myths about "Alpha-dog" or "Top-dog" that are popularized on TV. Find a trainer that does not perpetuate such myths.

Overall, PLEASE be patient with your dog. As sad as it is, the training you sought to help your dog has set him back further in his progress toward being a stable, secure pet.

 

[sam&macksmom]

You've been dealing with this for a while now.

Did Conan have a thorough vet check; bloodwork, especially thyroid panel? I know he's young but it might be something to check out and it's not that expensive.

Are you in the US? Which state? Perhaps someone can recommend another trainer, if you're willing to keep working with Conan. Not all trainers are created equal.

 

[Conan]

No

Okay people, listen, before EVER using a choke chain, which has only been used for about 2 months we tried clicker training, the NILF program, EVERYTHING. This is NOT a dog that does well with that training. He disrespected us worse than he does now and also listened way worse than he does now. We live in an area that is very limited to trainers. We researched everything. The choke chain has been working and he listens very well with it. The only problem we have now with his aggression is that he ONLY goes into his kennel for my boyfriend and no one else and if you try to get him in than he will get nasty. I don't believe in giving a million and one treats to a dog. The dog is then not doing what you want him to because he wants to. The dog is doing it for the treat. A dog should listen because he is serving you and not the other way around. Thank you for the advice but it was already tried with a different trainer and things got worse.

And Conan's birthday is Thanksgiving day. He will be one year old. He's had many vet checks. Nothing wrong.

 

[Sam Erin]

Wow, what a mess. I'm sorry you are dealing with this. Here's what I think:
-he is not truly aggressive
-he is very confused/unclear as to what is expected of him
-he does not trust either of you
-he is scared of your SO
-he associates both of you with the pain of the choke collar
-he needs structure
-he needs consistency
-he needs the rules clearly laid out for him

I would throw the choke collar in the trash, and find a trainer who specializes in positive methods, clicker, NILIF, and who can properly teach you how to use a prong collar, if needed.

Hopefully some people will start chiming in with some trainer referrals!

 

[OliviaB]

How old is he? When did the food aggression start and how did you handle it? The fact that he bit your boyfriend simply for trying to pick up his leash is extremely concerning...sounds like the choke collar has made him fearful. I really hope you can find a solid trainer who uses positive methods. It sounds like your dog had some instability and issues to start with and the choke collar method has made it worse. In my opinion, if you have to use an extreme device to force a dog to do something, he's not trained. It can be a tool if used correctly, but I agree that in this case, it's probably doing more harm than good.

Sorry, we posted at the same time and I see the age now. Thanks.

 

[MsMoppett]

How old is your dog?

 

[Sam Erin]

I don't believe in giving a million and one treats to a dog. The dog is then not doing what you want him to because he wants to. The dog is doing it for the treat. A dog should listen because he is serving you and not the other way around.

This is completely wrong, wrong, wrong! This shows us that you have a complete lack of understanding of these methods. You need someone to teach you about these methods, immediately.

 

[Conan]

We've done everything

We have tried everything with Conan. All types of training. The dog knows what's expected of him and what we want. Conans father (dog) had a past like this as well with his owner (the breeder) that we got him from as well.

 

[MsMoppett]

Well, what did the breeder do about it? Has that problem been fixed?

 

[heidi's mom]

We have tried everything with Conan. All types of training. The dog knows what's expected of him and what we want. Conans father (dog) had a past like this as well with his owner (the breeder) that we got him from as well.

if he is not listening to you then he does not know what is expected of him... he is a baby ,, not even a year ? he clearly doesnt know what you want and may be reacting to your frustration,,,
ie.. agression,,, if he feels backed into a corner its the fight or flight thing...

 

[RedFawnRising]

Hi all, gonna try to make this a long story short. All in all my doberman started out with food aggression and attacked me as well as my boyfriend. He was fixed early, has all his shots, etc. We took him to a wonderful trainer who deals with dogs with aggression problems in all scenarios. He stayed there for over 2 weeks. The method used was choke chain which we still use. He is also not allowed off the leash because he gets too independent and won't listen completely. Things have been going down hill though. He attacked my boyfriend yesterday and bit his hand because my boyfriend went to grab his leash because he had gotten loose. He also "knows" I am not as aggressive with the choke chain so now he will put on the brakes when I ask him to go into his kennel. He did that once with my boyfriend but he choked him enough to where he goes in every time for him. All in all my doberman is still not trustworthy and I'm extremely upset and I wondered if ANYONE has had this experience and what to do. My boyfriend has spent over a grand on this dog in training trying to "fix" him. Were at a point where we just are lost and don't know what to do next with him. We love him dearly and would do anything for him but when is enough, enough?

And besides the fact of his aggression, I love a Doberman and this is our first Doberman as well, but this discourages us from ever having another one. No we did not get him from a known breeder, more of a back yard breeder but every dog needs a home, right? Just please give me any info and input on this.

Okay people, listen, before EVER using a choke chain, which has only been used for about 2 months we tried clicker training, the NILF program, EVERYTHING. This is NOT a dog that does well with that training. He disrespected us worse than he does now and also listened way worse than he does now. We live in an area that is very limited to trainers. We researched everything. The choke chain has been working and he listens very well with it. The only problem we have now with his aggression is that he ONLY goes into his kennel for my boyfriend and no one else and if you try to get him in than he will get nasty. I don't believe in giving a million and one treats to a dog. The dog is then not doing what you want him to because he wants to. The dog is doing it for the treat. A dog should listen because he is serving you and not the other way around. Thank you for the advice but it was already tried with a different trainer and things got worse.

And Conan's birthday is Thanksgiving day. He will be one year old. He's had many vet checks. Nothing wrong.

This has escalated to an entirely unsafe situation, for both human and dog.

No one is enjoying their day together either, sounds like.

I recommend getting a good veterinary behaviorist involved immediately and following their recommendations.

You need someone excellent, there in person--biting can't be solved safely over the internet.

If the dog is from a BYB as you say, then you are now discovering the hard way, one of the pitfalls of supporting that kind of breeding program with your purchase money--no way to know what's in his family history, if there have been mental or physical health issues in his bloodline, no support on behavioral questions from the breeder, etc, etc.

I doubt you're going to easily find a rescue placement, since the dog now has a bite history, but I think you should try.

If the dog is truly unstable, he needs to be euth'd. That said, it is almost always "owner/operator" error, in cases like you're describing.

Btw, the choke chain is NOT working--else you wouldn't be on here. Think about it.

Please don't choke him out anymore--someone is going to get badly injured.

 

[sam&macksmom]

So let me ask the tough question, is Conan's temperament so bad that he should be euth'd?

We have tried everything with Conan. All types of training. The dog knows what's expected of him and what we want. Conans father (dog) had a past like this as well with his owner (the breeder) that we got him from as well.

 

[OliviaB]

We have tried everything with Conan. All types of training. The dog knows what's expected of him and what we want. Conans father (dog) had a past like this as well with his owner (the breeder) that we got him from as well.

Wait a second....so to clarify....the sire of your dog had similiar aggression issues and was bred anyways? And you were aware of this when you got your dog? Please tell me I'm confused....

 

[Conan]

Confused.

I apologize if anyone disagrees with the way we handle our dog. I know completely well about clicker training, treat method, and the NILF program. We had a wonderful trainer that used clicker training and the NILF program and used treats as well and Conan actually turned on her over food while in a training session. I know my dog, you do not. He is aggressive and needs correction. I'm not saying the choke chain is the wonder tool and that it's going to fix everything but we HAVE to use this with him and again I'm sorry if anyone disagrees.

 

[MsMoppett]

Of course you know your dog better than anyone over the internet, but what advice did your breeder give? They had a similar problem with the sire, and what came of it? What has your vet said about the situation?

 

[GingerGunlock]

I apologize if this may seem out of line, but "choke him until he does it" and "love our dog dearly" seem mutually exclusive to me.

However, it seems as though the trainer that you used should be giving you backup on this issue, and having training sessions with both you and your boyfriend so that you can both consistently maintain the same rules and behavior. An unfortunate facet of "board and train" is that the dog might learn all right, from that trainer. It has nothing to do with you.

Patience, precision, and consistency on the part of the humans and trainers will work wonders with a clicker and NILIF method. If you don't want to give your dog "a million treats", then feed Conan his food in this manner, kibble by kibble. People have used positive methods to train and rehabilitate aggressive and reactive dogs.

In addition to the suggested thyroid panel and bloodwork, I would suggest contacting a Certified Animal Behavioralist. If it's medical, you'll get an answer there. If it's behavioral, you'll hopefully get a window on the "why" and "what do to different".

Books you might look into: Control Unleashed (which also has training seminars across the country) by Leslie McDevitt
Bringing Light to Shadow, by Pamela S. Dennison
Reaching the Animal Mind, by Karen Pryor

 

[MIA]

How long have you been training him? It can take time to see improvement. Not all dogs can be "fixed" in a few weeks. Having worked with some pretty tough dogs it can take months of consistent work.

 

[heidi's mom]

I apologize if anyone disagrees with the way we handle our dog. I know completely well about clicker training, treat method, and the NILF program. We had a wonderful trainer that used clicker training and the NILF program and used treats as well and Conan actually turned on her over food while in a training session. I know my dog, you do not. He is aggressive and needs correction. I'm not saying the choke chain is the wonder tool and that it's going to fix everything but we HAVE to use this with him and again I'm sorry if anyone disagrees.

maybe he is not in the right home,,, maybe he is to strong a dog for you.. is there any doberman clubs around that maybe can help.. maybe someone who is familiar with the breed can help you make an educated choice.. be it possible rescue, or training him .. maybe they can point you in the right direction,, also if there is a dobe rescue near you. ask for their trainer to look at him..