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Discussion Starter #21
Well, that's just nuts. No one can keep 7-9 or more puppies. Then you've got males you know aren't going to get along eventually, you've got littermate syndrome happening, you've got huge bills. Obviously, you have to sell puppies.



So, question -- if you have no contact with the breeder, how will you know what happens to the parents of your male (and/or his siblings)? How will you know if one of them develops a problem that directly affects your male and any puppy he may produce? How will you know if one of them drops dead at 6, for eg? How can you be responsible to the puppies you produce when you don't have that info? That's one of the reasons that breeding dogs from irresponsible breeders isn't a great idea. It causes a break in the information chain of the pedigree.



How so? I mean, that's an easy thing to say.
I've done the research on the parents, grandparents, and great grandparents. I have looked at their records. For my female I don't have all that info but she is fixed and I have done a lot of testing on her already. She may have blocked my number but I know how to get around that and have other means of contacting her. I know all about litter mate syndrome.

This forum was never about getting judgement on breeding. It was simply about same sex aggression. Like stated in every previous post I have made I will only do what is best for MY dogs. You guys can get pissy all you want. the fact is you don't know me and my dogs and I don't know you and your dogs.
 

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We don't know you and your dogs and you don't know us and our dogs.

However, I and the others that posted know THE BREED. The situation you are describing, breeding dogs and keeping all the puppies, is a recipe for disaster, no matter if the parents had excellent pedigrees, health, conformation and temperament. This is a breed that needs to work and needs to form strong bonds with their people. That takes significant 1:1 time.

The likely output of what you are describing is very unhappy, stressed dogs.

I don't care "how much research" you have done, you are not doing it correctly.
 

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You also posted here: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/215969-doberland-puppies.html#post4073845 about where your dogs come from. So we do have some information. You, yourself, said they are from a bad breeder. I don't understand why you'd want to perpetuate her lines. Frankly, you won't find a GOOD breeder that wants to sell you a quality bitch to breed to your male, so you'll just be another breeder like her, breeding substandard dogs to either make money, or to put more Dobermans out there with sketchy health or temperaments (since your female from that breeder has health issues, what makes you think your male won't have issues down the road?).

Clearly you aren't interested or open to opinions on the topic, so I won't waste any more time on this. Since you seem firmly of the opinion that you're able to do your own research on the other topic, feel free to dismiss our opinions on same sex aggression, too...why does our input have any value there?
 

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Well...back to the same sex problem.

As you can see looking at the previous responses, the answers to "Will two females get along?" are...maybe, probably, perhaps, it depends and you never know.

Two dobes in a mixed set is really about the only combination that you can be fairly certain will get along (and of course, even there, there are exceptions). Add in one or more "duplicates" and you just don't know. And unfortunately, you may get two who get along just fine--until they don't. So you can almost never be entirely sure your dogs are OK together. Dobes are not bred to get along in a pack the way some hunting dogs are, so how they do with other dogs has not been a breeding priority.



You have gotten some honest truthful remarks about the wisdom of breeding your own dogs though. There is a lot to take into account. Ideally, with every breeding, even with dogs who are top-notch really-should-be-bred-to-improve-the-breed champion types, you want to pick a mate whose characteristics fit with yours, and improve on your dog's weak spots. You want to pick a stud who brings something to the table the bitch is not so good at (every dog has some flaws). The likelihood that your own two dogs will be the perfect breeding match is very low.

But two things about what you've said just seem impractical to me...

One, that you are prepared to keep all of the puppies if necessary, in fact don't really even plan to sell them. That's just plain unrealistic. You'd already have three adults...do you really think you'd be able to keep, oh, I don't know, 8 more?! Littermate syndrome for sure, in addition to (finger counting here) 11 fully mature male and female dobes trucking around your property who need to all get along?? Wow.

Another real concern, though, is the cost. Dobes are not a healthy breed, as you've found out with your girl. Can you really manage that kind of vet bills for, let's just say, 6 out of those 11 dogs? I dropped $25,000 on my last female in one year...she obstructed three times--twice with peritonitis--needed emergency surgery and intensive care several times and had a tendon problem that required on-going physical therapy and a custom made brace. My other dog at the time was treated his entire life for allergies (shots, meds), bloated 8 times total (maybe IBD related in his case) and had DCM. We lived at the vet's offices (both GP and specialists), and singlehandedly put everyone's kids through college, I am convinced.

I can't imagine what I would have done if i had had several dogs with that kind of vet bills. We were stretched with only two. And I can't imagine what kind of heartbreak I would have had to go through if we had gotten to the point where we really COULDN'T have afforded to care for our dogs' treatable (but expensive) medical problems. Putting an animal to sleep because you really just CANNOT find the money to treat him, that no one else will take under their wings because of their health problems either...I shudder to think of it. And we got close to having that reality hit us in the face.


I'm glad you're researching and thinking through whether or not what you'd like to have is a realistic option for you; that's so much better than jumping in feet first and only then regretting your decision (because then what will you do?) And I hope you'll consider all of the advice you get, both what you want to hear, and what you'd rather not, when you figure out what options are reasonably doable for you.

Dobes are a fun breed...sometimes a headache and tough to manage, but always rewarding. It's fun to share stories too, both your "I'm so proud" moments and your "I want to kill the beast" ones. Stick around and contribute. We'd love to have you in the loop.

But really do give some thought to what folks have said here. I think dobes are wonderful, but where I am right now, I just can't have another. *sniff* Sometimes we can't just have everything we want. No one can figure out what another person's limits are--but outside advice based on lots of cumulative knowledge is not something to throw out the window.

No one here is trying to pick on you personally. We would say the same thing to anyone who came here with the questions and ideas you've shared. Just....don't rush in too fast and get in over your head.
 

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No one here is trying to be a pissy, judgemental bully - some here are just more passionate about the breed.
In the past I volunteered at Doberman Rescue Unlimited in NH. At any given time they have least 40 Dobes. Many are between 9 - 18 months, the dreaded Doberteens, when so many people realize they are in over their heads. And that's in the Northeast.
By all means, get another pup! Or two! But please please don't breed just because you love dogs.
 

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Big Lil pup
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@charcoal...
" I'm not going to take opinions on breeding by keyboard warriors here. I simply wanted experiences and opinions on same sex aggression."

OK.. a response to your preliminary and apparently only question regarding SSA:

It took over 100 stitches to reattach my thumb and repair my wist and forearm when my 2 boys , after being best friends for over 5 years decided that one of then had to die.

Yes..I was stupid for intervening. but I was young and naive. 40 years later, my right hand still gives me grief.

Does that answer your question about Doberman SSA?

I am soooo done with this thread.

John
Portland OR
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I just want to make this clear. We would be getting a pup. this means over 2 to 2 1/2 years before even thinking about breeding. I simply just want to know about same sex aggression. We live on a lot of acreage and can work the dogs. I just want to know if even introducing a new girl is a good idea and if it works out we will think about that way down the line. If finances allow and HEALTH allows breeding MAY but NOT 100% happening may occur. I just want experiences on same sex aggression specifically with females because we would be getting a female regardless of breeding or not. I found that my female dobe and many that I have met work better for me personally.

I do appreciate some of the insight given and some more topics to research if we do go that route. But I would have over 2 years to even think about that. I have learned a lot about the breed before getting one and while having them. I did also have one growing up that was a rescue so I understand the breed quite well too. It is like I am being treated on here as someone who knows nothing about my dog.

Please less talk about breeding and more talk about experiences of same sex aggression. I would like opinions from more than just the 5 people I see post on every single forum that usually divert the conversation to something else anyways.
 

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You've been given requested advice from several (more than the 5 you refer to) owners who have had or experienced SSA. You were the one who posted about breeding and keeping the puppies from the breeding and as such you received excellent advice from members who have been in Dobes for literally decades. Not one posted it was a good or even viable idea to do. Those posters went into explicit detail as to the reasons against such breeding etc.. Even though you keep posting about your experience with this breed each post shows you are no different than the others who have come here with the same aspirations and misguided plans. Like I said before I am not trying to insult you but give you reality. There are two kinds of breeders.....reputable and byb. Looking at your posts I don't believe you aspire to be the reputable breeder that is an asset to the breed. No offense meant but merely stating what comes across from your posts.
 

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No offense, but you want the opinion and hopefully the expert opinion from people on this forum. You are pretty much getting it. I've been giving my opinion and what some people think is an expert opinion for a lot of years. One thing I have learned, is to not help people with their plans to become a back yard breeder. I'm sure you mean well, but you are going about it the wrong way..... and you only get one chance to make a good impression with the people who are in the know.

So my opinion is this: enjoy the dogs you have - do stuff with them.... agility, obedience, rally, nose work, dock diving, flyball, lure coursing, therapy dog work, etc etc etc...... Neuter your boy. Make an effort to meet and get to know Doberman people in your area.... the ones who really do stuff with their well bred Dobermans. Find mentors in the breed and really start learning. At some point, you would hopefully be ready to take another step towards becoming a good breeder.

I spent 15 years as a Doberman owner .... gained multiple mentors, joined a local Doberman club, and had two well bred show bitches (that I put titles on) before breeding my first litter with the help of a very reputable established breeder. You don't start at the bottom and work your way up in the dog world if you have any hope of being respectable.
 

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I have a 3 year old male doberman, and a 2 year old female doberman. Female is spayed and got spayed after having a heat cycle. She has had a false pregnancy before too. We are looking at adding another female doberman to the family. We would potentially like to breed the new female with the male if health allows. The reason the first female got spayed was because of health concerns and health is top priority. I have been told only once that a female spayed doberman and a unspayed female will not get along together and cause potentially deadly fights...is this at all true? Or does this all depend on training at a young age? Both of our dogs are very well behaved and love each other and they love playing with other dogs too, sometimes they just are a little "too friendly" and they don't realize how big they are compared to other dogs.

Any opinions or experience with this..
OK, I thought I had answered the question about two females getting along but I'm going to try again--and I'm responding to the bolded sections of your post.

When it comes to same sex aggression it doesn't seem to be dependent on whether the two bitches ( of males for that matter) are intact or neutered. I'm not sure where you heard that an intact bitch and a neutered bitch might get into a fight that could be deadly. The situation is less clear cut than that. They could be two adult bitches that had always gotten along or two that only started fighting when one was spayed or they could both be spayed. It just doesn't make any difference--if two bitches living in the same household decided to fight it's going to be a crate and separate situation. One they start to fight it's very unlikely it's going to stop.

I've seen a few trainers who claim to be able to train dogs to get along. I've got 60 years in the breed and that's not what I've seen. SSA--if it exists in your dogs isn't going to be trained out of them and you aren't really going to know it's there until it rears it's ugly head and your pair of bitches (or dogs) start to fight.

Over time I've had a fair amount of experience with SSA--less with my own dogs (and I do not keep bitches--the last one I had was in the early '60's) I keep only males. But I've been showing Dobes since 1960 and I know a lot of breeders so I've seen the situation often enough where a household may have one males and 3, 4, 5 or more bitches and some may be neuters and some may be intact but in general you chances of having more than one bitch get along with the other bitches is pretty good. But there really aren't guarantees.

The bottom line is that same sex dogs or bitches in a household who get along and don't fight is always going to be kind of obscure. Your chances are better of it working with a pair of bitches than with a pair of dogs. But really it's always kind of going to be a deal where it works until it doesn't.

It helps to find a very reliable breeder who knows their breeding lines well enough to tell you if their dogs (or bitches) generally get along well together. And it helps to know that you will need to oversee interactions between the dogs so that you are aware and watchful for signs of aggression when it still can be stopped before it escalates into war.

Good luck...

dobebug
 

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I simply just want to know about same sex aggression.
Then one could simply do a search on it. You know, and avoid all of the pesky responses from experienced people here that freely share their knowledge about other stuff at the same time.

My experience with same sex aggression in females is that I've had as many as 6 or 7 females at a time (in the past), some spayed, some not. It was fine for many years. Then I picked up a young, stray, female German shorthaired pointer on the side of the road one day. One of my Doberman females and the new GSP that we had hoped to keep (as we've had a few of them in the past as well) could not tolerate each other, period. The final straw was a fight in the family room one day ending with the GSP firmly latched onto the face of Shelby, the Doberman, and it took seemingly forever to get her to let go. We were trying to pry her mouth open and when she finally let go, Shelby turned back on the GSP to try to finish what had started. We got them separated, and that's how the situation stayed until we placed the GSP as soon as I could after that.
 

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Thank you M and D...

Folks who take SSA lightly, have no idea until hits home. A couple of 85lb. dogs or bitches can do more damage to each other or any human around in a matter of seconds than one can imagine. Been there.

Our sweet puppies pushed into the wrong mode are total fighting machines. It is not their fault. It is nature.

My boy, McCoy, (who I call Baby) is the nicest, most socialized Dobe that I have ever owned.
He loves humans and other dogs. Still... he is an intimidating dog.

Do I trust him in public? Heck no. He never barks, never growls, yet he is very hard for other dogs to read. He presents himself stoic and firm. He is a fairly large intact male. He is not received well by many dogs. He was attacked once when he was about 2 yo by a large Pit bull mix. He tore the attacking dog apart.

So "Baby" is never off leash in public. Not because of him. It's the other dogs and their clueless owners/walkers.

I have had multiple same sex male homes. But i will not do it again. I am too old for the potential consequences.Our current boys do very well. Yet, they are never allowed to to be alone together unsupervised. It has gotten better as The Sheriff has entered his senior years.

I believe that dobebug subscribes to the same philosophy, as she (like me), have pretty much
only owned dogs.

One needs to be on guard at all times IMO

John
Portland OR
 

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I successfully had two bitches together for nearly a decade. They were best-friends AFTER some rocky events early on that resulted in some puncture wounds and periods of crate-and-rotate and serious revision of dog management and house rules.

In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed. And you have to be on your toes to stop potential problems, and be strict and fair in your response; i.e., no one is ever allowed to ignore the rules on anything that could trigger a problem.

My girls had a few fights when my youngest got to be around 1.5-2 years old and she decided to push boundaries with my other girl who was a year older. So, my younger girl often instigated if I didn't stay on her. She was just being young, pushy, and stupid. And my older girl was a bitch that wouldn't start problems but she would end them. She was a sharp girl anyway and there's more to her story than just this, but in short, I was the only person that I trusted to be able to intervene once her switch was flipped. So that also complicated things.

General house rules were:

1. They were never left out together unsupervised. Someone was *always* crated when we weren't home. And, at first, they couldn't be left out together unless I specifically was home because my SO couldn't handle them.

2. Certain groups of toys were supervision only. And by supervision, I mean I would get them out when I decided and tell each girl where they could hang out and enjoy their toys. And if one of my girls so much as looked at the other with a toy, that was it. Toys were taken away.

3. They were fed in separate rooms. High value chews were given in crates. If any body got tense about it, chews were taken away.

4. NO POSTURING. EVER. OVER ANYTHING. No staring down, no standing over, no possession of anything allowed. Everything was mine. If either one acted toward the other like they owned anything, I took it from them.

5. Growling was allowed to communicate with each other but no one was allowed to snarl. Growls were strongly enforced, by me (if the recipient tried to ignore or challenge it) so there was never any reason for things to escalate to teeth.

6. Play was heavily monitored and refereed. Early on, I would end play sessions periodically and well before anyone was worked up just to keep things from getting anywhere near problematic and keep everyone thinking clearly while being active.

Over the years, they became best-friends and I think they were able to develop that bond because of the strict rules I implemented, in addition to their temperaments being suited to it. It removed the potential for either one to control anything. Once any chance for competition was destroyed, they could relax with one another. But it was work to get there and house rules were house rules for their entire lives. No playing favorites, no letting up for good behavior. Rules were rules, period.

Both of my girls were healthy and in their prime at the time and they both put holes in each other on (thankfully, only) a few occasions until I was able to sort it out. You say that your current girl has early signs of spondylosis? I would seriously think about what position you might be putting her in if she were to end up in even one fight with another, presumably healthy, adult Dobe bitch. What might happen to her spine if she's attacked?

Not everyone's bitches fight even one time. But I know of enough who have that I wouldn't totally dismiss it as a concern, especially considering your current girl's spinal condition that greatly elevates her risk of serious injury.

ETA...Also, you realize you posted this in "Breeding and Breeders," right? If you didn't want opinions on breeding maybe this wasn't the best sub-forum...? LOL Just sayin'.
 

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Big Lil pup
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@ brw

Great post. Your rules are pretty much identical to how I handle our two when they are together. The senior is actually my son's dog, but he has always spent days at a time at our house.

On other thing that I do, is to have them sleep in separate rooms. This is because McCoy sleeps open crated. McCoy has his own room and The Sheriff sleep on a big bed in my room.

When I separate them when I leave the house, McCoy gets locked in his room. It is no big deal because it is his "safe place" and in my absence, he generally goes up to his crate anyway.

In anywise, thanks for laundry listing you method. I am sure many people will find it quite useful at some time.

John
Portland OR
 

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No more breeding please

I am President of Doberman Rescue of NM so I see all of the cast offs from "I just want to breed once" First off do your home work and look up how many dogs are destroyed in your state, in our country. Do you want to add to that. That one time breeding does not result in one dog you will easily have 6 or more. I don't care how much property you have you can not keep them all, Why ? look up littermate syndrome. Even two puppies that show up at the same time can become real rivals, resulting in two unbalanced dogs. "But my friend have all said they want one......" When the pups are born you will find not all of those folks really can buy/adopt one of your Dobes. Then there are the people that see your well trained Dobe want one but have no clue how much time and training you put into your Dobermans for them to be so spectacular. I guarantee one or more of the pups you brought into the world will wind up in a rescue if the dog is lucky or the shelter, where there is no consideration for who buys the dog.
Please don't breed. You are not seeing the whole picture. I've seen it for 16 years. Trish Coffey President Doberman Rescue of NM
 

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In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed.
I remember reading in the past on a vet's website that used to post a lot of interesting studies that if you have 2 bitches with no problems that spaying or not spaying is probably not going to change that. But, if you had bitches with aggression problems that spaying had a high likelihood of making it worse.
 

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Like everything else with dogs, the answer to "Will two bitches get along" is "It depends".

I currently have two bitches, a GSD and APBT. Until 2017, I also had a mixed breed bitch. I lived in a strict crate and rotate system with the three of them. And when I say strict, I mean that only two of them were out at any given time, while the third was crated. The one time I tried all three loose, I had a squabble that was thankfully got stopped before it really got started, but it scared the ever-loving bejeebers out of me. I knew then that if I was alone and something started, I was out numbered and outgunned when it came to sheer damage power, and someone (probably myself and/or the little pittie) was going to come out on the losing end.

Even with rotating pairs, I had to watch the mutt like a hawk when she and the pittie were out, because the mutt was a snarky, bitchy bitch who was also a serious resource guarder. Even with the troublemaker gone (and mourned still), to this day, the pittie and shepherd are crated when I'm gone, and while rough play is allowed, posturing and pestering aren't.

Add in wanting to breed, with no plans to sell or otherwise rehome upwards of a dozen puppies, that's just asking for trouble.
 
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