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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
this is the previous thread http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-rescue/49147-ontario-blue-spayed-female.html

So we have plans to meet on Wednesday so i can "look at his dog and decide if he should breed her"
He said that he "probably wouldnt" breed her if i didnt think she should be bred, but in the same "breath" would go on about asking how much i think he should charge if i know of a male etc.
I hope i can come up with some good excuses not to breed her- like maybe say the way she walks looks like she has hip issues.
I told him about someone losing their bitch in whelp and that didnt seem to strike a cord.
He has an older jack russell(female) and the dobe got her once and the jack had a $500 vet bill...wonder if change in temp would be a good excuse- saying maybe it would make her more agressive, right now his resolution is to put a nylon muzzle on the dobe.

I dont have much faith that he will change his mind so then my question is, do i help him find a good stud dog- so the puppies have a decent chance at health and good temperament?, help him screen homes?
If he goes ahead with breeding i will strongly urge him to speuter the pups before they go and just tack that onto the price, i think he said he wanted to charge $400 for the puppies so if he upped it to $800 and sold the speutered maybe that would work...
I would want to help him find good homes for the pups etc.
Why am i so interested in other people's dogs? Not sure- i think it's because it is a relative of Saph and the people who bred Saph and her siblings/relatives dont give two craps about what happens to the puppies.

Does this sound like a good idea or should i just mind my business and cut off contact with the guy? ughhh

I havent given up on him yet but...
 

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Oh no! Is there any kind of licensing in your city that breeders need to have to breed and sell puppies that are not spayed or neutered? Is there a pet limit? That could deter him if you throw the law in his face.

What would he do with the puppies he couldn't sell? Surely he wouldn't want 8+ juvenile Dobermans terrorizing his JRT....
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oh no! Is there any kind of licensing in your city that breeders need to have to breed and sell puppies that are not spayed or neutered? Is there a pet limit? That could deter him if you throw the law in his face.

What would he do with the puppies he couldn't sell? Surely he wouldn't want 8+ juvenile Dobermans terrorizing his JRT....
I tried the whole "you cant call these dogs purebred cuz you dont have papers, it would be considered fraud" thing and he just said he would show the people the mom
 

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I would just tell him straight out that she should not be bred, in any shape or form. Or maybe take a print out of the minimal testing (nevermind the cost of showing since people just don't get that at all) that needs to be done and that will probably do him in. Explain that if these tests are not done, especially since they were not done with the parents (I'm assuming) that there is a high likelyhood of the puppies having heart disease, debilitating structural problems, thyroid issues and other health related problems. If he is not very educated you could possibly throw in there that he could be responsible for selling puppies knowing they could have these issues but still did not test for them. Some places do have puppy lemon laws so it is not that far fetched. Make it seem that there is much more potential for him losing money than him making any money. Also, throw in the price of caring for the liter, food, tail docking, shots from vet, etc and how much it cost per week, especially since there is a good chance that some puppies will not sell and he is stuck caring for them longer than anticipated. So, the cost of health testing, possible labor and delivery complications requiring C-section, cost of caring for puppies and vetting them very potentially equals much more than what he could make selling puppies from non-titled parents, especially considering the fact that there could be legal complications from breeding a bitch from a known tempermental line if the dog attacks someone down the line = just not worth it.
 

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While your intent is good, I doubt you would be able to help this guy find a decent, health tested stud dog. No quality stud dog owner backed by strong morals, ethics and dedication to the breed is going to allow a breeding to an untitled bitch with no health testing and a possible sketchy temperament. There's three great reasons for him NOT to breed. Good for you for trying to educate him, but he'll probably just go out and breed her anyways. :(


 

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While your intent is good, I doubt you would be able to help this guy find a decent, health tested stud dog. No quality stud dog owner backed by strong morals, ethics and dedication to the breed is going to allow a breeding to an untitled bitch with no health testing and a possible sketchy temperament. There's three great reasons for him NOT to breed. Good for you for trying to educate him, but he'll probably just go out and breed her anyways. :(


That's what I was thinking. :(
Please keep us updated.
 

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If the health scare is not going to deter him, then money might be his objective. Tell him that the bitch doesn't have great qualities and the pups are not going to make much. Tell him the cost and time for raising pups. Ask him what is his plan if someone came back with a sick pup and demands to return it and have money back? Tell a white lie and say that people can do this and he can be sued if he refuses.

I have been in this situation (not dogs though) and I just kept listing all the problems that can happen: pups get sick and die, your out $500 (or however much the stud fee was), bitch gets sick and die, must hand raise pups, what if no one want s the pups because your bitch is not titled?

I would make it sound really hard, and not much money is to be made.
 

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I would try to educate him as much as possible when you meet with him...What is his reason for wanting to breed his bitch so badly?

If he doesn't listen, I wouldn't take part in assisting him in breeding... no way that is going to do any good for the doberman gene pool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I would just tell him straight out that she should not be bred, in any shape or form. Or maybe take a print out of the minimal testing (nevermind the cost of showing since people just don't get that at all) that needs to be done and that will probably do him in. Explain that if these tests are not done, especially since they were not done with the parents (I'm assuming) that there is a high likelyhood of the puppies having heart disease, debilitating structural problems, thyroid issues and other health related problems. If he is not very educated you could possibly throw in there that he could be responsible for selling puppies knowing they could have these issues but still did not test for them. Some places do have puppy lemon laws so it is not that far fetched. Make it seem that there is much more potential for him losing money than him making any money. Also, throw in the price of caring for the liter, food, tail docking, shots from vet, etc and how much it cost per week, especially since there is a good chance that some puppies will not sell and he is stuck caring for them longer than anticipated. So, the cost of health testing, possible labor and delivery complications requiring C-section, cost of caring for puppies and vetting them very potentially equals much more than what he could make selling puppies from non-titled parents, especially considering the fact that there could be legal complications from breeding a bitch from a known tempermental line if the dog attacks someone down the line = just not worth it.
When her first mentioned breeding i told him this is an expensive breed to breed...docking, feeding, deworming etc.
I told him he would probably get an all black litter so not to count on colours to attract buyers. I dunno I guess when you dont want to hear things...


While your intent is good, I doubt you would be able to help this guy find a decent, health tested stud dog. No quality stud dog owner backed by strong morals, ethics and dedication to the breed is going to allow a breeding to an untitled bitch with no health testing and a possible sketchy temperament. There's three great reasons for him NOT to breed. Good for you for trying to educate him, but he'll probably just go out and breed her anyways. :(


Im hoping this isnt the case, that he will listen because i do know about his dog and his dog's family, im going to talk to the "breeder" of the mother of his dog, see if she will talk to him too.

If you want to help the guy come to a decision not to breed, great. But I sure wouldn't be helping him in any way if he chooses TO breed. Like someone else said, no one with a good male is going to get involved in this anyway.
Maybe Im a control freak(maybe haha) but i feel like i need to make sure he places puppies with good owners and cares for puppies properly, but yes i agree that no good stud dog owner would breed to him but i have seen a couple breedings here that kinda baffled me...i guess if the price is right for some breeders around here....

If the health scare is not going to deter him, then money might be his objective. Tell him that the bitch doesn't have great qualities and the pups are not going to make much. Tell him the cost and time for raising pups. Ask him what is his plan if someone came back with a sick pup and demands to return it and have money back? Tell a white lie and say that people can do this and he can be sued if he refuses. I have asked him a couple of times why he wants to breed her and i told him that i wanted to breed Saph cause i was broke, he said that he wanted to breed her because she is a good dog and listens well- i told him well yes but thats because you puit time and effort into her not because she was well bred, i have told him it is fraud to sell a dog as purebred if she isnt registered, but her paid $700 for her and most people around feel like they need to get their money back on their "investment" and i assume that is why he is doing it.

I have been in this situation (not dogs though) and I just kept listing all the problems that can happen: pups get sick and die, your out $500 (or however much the stud fee was), bitch gets sick and die, must hand raise pups, what if no one want s the pups because your bitch is not titled?I tried telling him he wont make as much money as he thinks he might but for most people a couple grand is lots of money for "no work"

I would make it sound really hard, and not much money is to be made.
I would try to educate him as much as possible when you meet with him...What is his reason for wanting to breed his bitch so badly?

If he doesn't listen, I wouldn't take part in assisting him in breeding... no way that is going to do any good for the doberman gene pool.
The reason he wants to breed her he says is because she is a good dog and she listens well.
The reason i have agreed to meeting her is because i am hoping that if he sees me putting my hands on her, interacting with her seeing that she "isnt so bad" and i still think she shouldnt be bred that he will take my word and not breed her because someone like me who "seems to know alot" doesnt think she would be a good dog to breed...im hoping here that he would go along with my advice..but we'll see.
I also think part of the reason he wants to breed her is so that he can make his money back and then sell her because she is beating up the jack russell.
 

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I wouldnt do one thing to enable him in his efforts. Why would you want to help a byb do his dirty work? Take him to a doberman rescue or a large pound and ask him if he wants to contribute to the problem. I doubt if he will listen to anything negative you have to say. He is probably just hoping he can eventually lay you anyway. Sorry, not saying anything bad about you, just dont give men much credit for anything much else on their minds! :)
 

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I actually love Linda's idea to try to get him to visit a pound with you and volunteer. Maybe it can be like "Okay, you think I don't know how nice your girl is, I think you don't know how bad the homeless animal situation is." a sort of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours," if you will. ;)

Then finish the lesson with a sort of "And I already spend my spare time trying to find homes for Dobermans from the exact lines your girl is from. There's just no excuse to breed more while I can't find homes for the ones there already are."
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I wouldnt do one thing to enable him in his efforts. Why would you want to help a byb do his dirty work? Take him to a doberman rescue or a large pound and ask him if he wants to contribute to the problem. I doubt if he will listen to anything negative you have to say. He is probably just hoping he can eventually lay you anyway. Sorry, not saying anything bad about you, just dont give men much credit for anything much else on their minds! :)
Unfortunately we dont have shelters (within an hour) near me with a high kill rate and the shelter here only allows you to see the adoptable animals and often they have empty runs...so it doesn't *seem* too bad of a problem around here. If I knew of an animal control facility that kills a lot I would take him there and then there is the issue that really, in simcoe county, there aren't many dobes looking for homes. I have been to the downstairs of the shelter in town and again, its never full and never dobes, the only dobes this shelter has had is rroma puppy mill over a year ago. I know there was one that ended up at the next town over's shelter and it was half brother to the mother of this guys pup. All I can do is hope for the best... have him talk to the breeder of the mother of his dog.


I actually love Linda's idea to try to get him to visit a pound with you and volunteer. Maybe it can be like "Okay, you think I don't know how nice your girl is, I think you don't know how bad the homeless animal situation is." a sort of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours," if you will. ;)

Then finish the lesson with a sort of "And I already spend my spare time trying to find homes for Dobermans from the exact lines your girl is from. There's just no excuse to breed more while I can't find homes for the ones there already are."
I told him about the many dogs related to his in the last year and his response was that his girl isn't that bad he just wishes I could meet her to see what I thought... so ill do my best. I have such moral issues with not keeping in contact with the guy to make sure he spays her or keeping in contact with the guy and make it seem like I'm ok with that decision..ha maybe I can convince him to give her to me and I can "breed" her and it won't take... then I can make up some excuse why it won't take ever...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I wouldnt do one thing to enable him in his efforts. Why would you want to help a byb do his dirty work? Take him to a doberman rescue or a large pound and ask him if he wants to contribute to the problem. I doubt if he will listen to anything negative you have to say. He is probably just hoping he can eventually lay you anyway. Sorry, not saying anything bad about you, just dont give men much credit for anything much else on their minds! :)
Lol Linda I shudder at that thought- I never brought up my age because I didn't think he would ever meet- but he has a daughter my age and one of the pics of his dog he sent me has him in it and again...shudder... he is a bit creepy looking - I was originally going to meet him at my house but have decided to meet downtown... I am thinking of bringing saph to shiw soke of her temperament issues...but don't want to have issues between his dog and mine...but maybe I should anyways... going to talk to breeder of mother of his dog see if she can bring in her baddest girl with no training as well or at least say that she will sue him if he breeds her since she sold the mother of his puppy on a non breeding non registered contract(BS). See if she can come up with some bull****.
 

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Not that its as complicated as this situation, my 'friend' that i lived with
wanted to breed her dog. Wasnt a dobe, but anyway. she sount alot like
this fella, thought about the selling part, more than reality. She even thought
that her dog was so beautiful there should be more of them, hence the 'friend'
part as i didnt want to asociate with someone so stupid. The way we
got her to change her mind was saying how much money goes into it, was really
the only way she stepped back at the situation. & was the only thing that actually
stopped her from doing it as she didnt want to spend more looking after them to selling them.. #urgh.. anyway think it would be a good idea laying it thick on how much its
gonna cost him if he has no care.
 

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If he has at least asked for advise I would not burn him off, nor would I possible lie and say it looks like she has hip problems if she doesn't.

I would make a list of questions to ask him. -First does he want to be a good breeder or does he care about long term responsibility???? Is she AKC reg? What are his plans for cropping and docking and I would tell him if she is unreg and uncrpped he will not get much money and even more importantly the puppies will not get great homes. I would ask him if he know about BSL and the possiblity of things coming back on him.

Is he prepared to take a puppy back if it doesn't work out??? What does he know about health issues?? The to even half way get anything for the puppies he needs to do Vwd, OFA hips and Full blood panel with Thyroid? Was he aware of any of that??? If not suggest he do a little more reserach before he jumps in and becomes one more who gives the breed and breeders a bad name.

I have found by asking questons it helps them to think when they have to answer.

I would tell him honestly that not a single quality dog would breed to her under the circumstances. So that means he is left with breeding to sub par dogs - Wouldn't he rather wait and learn more and have a better chance at prodcing something he could be proud to have his name on.

Good luck.
 
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