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So I was reading some threads that lead me to other threads and more researching and now I have gone and read enough to concern me but not enough to feel I should have any need to worry.

I had posted another thread about my puppy having incontinence issues (she is about 24 weeks old.) We had a urinalysis done and they found that it had a significant amount of RBC but did not see any WBC. It had pH of 6.0, Specific Gravity of 1.048 (that seems pretty high to me), and just trace protein. The vet put her on antibiotics and said to recheck in 10 days.

now as one thing lead to another, I somehow stumbled onto information regarding Hepatitis and how it has been seen to run in certain lines, more then others. I am not sure how accurate that information was, but I was concerned that my little kid might fit in that group of dogs.

As I read some of the symptoms I started to worry. She has been a VERY thirsty puppy and in turn, urinates quite frequently. I have asked my vet about it several times, run UA's and never found any reason for it. We chalked it up to puppy ADHD and never finishing her "job" when outside.
The second symptom is twice she has had a greyish colored BM with a diarrhea like consistency in the past 2 months. I hadnt thought a whole lot about it and decided she must have gotten into something strange.

I am just curious, could these be early signs of a liver problem? We ran blood work in June and everything looked fine, except a slightly elevated Glucose.

What have other's experienced with this disease? has anyone ever seen a very young puppy with symptoms?
 

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The main dog that I would worry about is Lex Luthor. While this is controversial, he does have a number of descendants that have developed CAH. I would worry if he is in a pups pedigree more then once or twice. About liver problems, I thought they would show up in a full blood panel. I hope they do cause just had one run on Parker and was depending on it to tell me if his liver is ok or not. I have read and heard over and over that by the time liver issues show signs the liver is already badly damaged. I thought CAH caused yellow poop, not sure if it will turn grey. Pancreas problems can cause grey poop, diarrhea, but I dont think they drink a lot of water. It wont show up on a full blood panel. You have to ask for it to be checked. Lots of things can cause a pancreas problem, too.a
 

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Only a full blood panel will tell you what state the liver is in - ALT, AST, ALK PHOS are the main numbers. There is a specific blood test to check the pancreas which you may want to consider. There are usually no symptoms at first and big thirst with weight loss are the first to usually appear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The main dog that I would worry about is Lex Luthor. While this is controversial, he does have a number of descendants that have developed CAH. I would worry if he is in a pups pedigree more then once or twice.

Thanks! She does have Lex, twice in her pedigree. She falls in the Marienberg/SA category-(Inaqui X Bond Girl). I figured if she had symptoms it would show up in her blood work, but wanted to double check. In June her liver values were all at the low end of the range. I will ask the vet to run a panel that includes pancreas, just to be safe.

thanks again
 

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So I was reading some threads that lead me to other threads and more researching and now I have gone and read enough to concern me but not enough to feel I should have any need to worry.

I had posted another thread about my puppy having incontinence issues (she is about 24 weeks old.) We had a urinalysis done and they found that it had a significant amount of RBC but did not see any WBC. It had pH of 6.0, Specific Gravity of 1.048 (that seems pretty high to me), and just trace protein. The vet put her on antibiotics and said to recheck in 10 days.

now as one thing lead to another, I somehow stumbled onto information regarding Hepatitis and how it has been seen to run in certain lines, more then others. I am not sure how accurate that information was, but I was concerned that my little kid might fit in that group of dogs.

As I read some of the symptoms I started to worry. She has been a VERY thirsty puppy and in turn, urinates quite frequently. I have asked my vet about it several times, run UA's and never found any reason for it. We chalked it up to puppy ADHD and never finishing her "job" when outside.
The second symptom is twice she has had a greyish colored BM with a diarrhea like consistency in the past 2 months. I hadnt thought a whole lot about it and decided she must have gotten into something strange.

I am just curious, could these be early signs of a liver problem? We ran blood work in June and everything looked fine, except a slightly elevated Glucose.

What have other's experienced with this disease? has anyone ever seen a very young puppy with symptoms?
It would be pretty unusual to see a young puppy showing symptoms of chronic active hepatitis. The average age of diagnosis is around 5 years of age, it's generally a late onset disease. That's not to say symptoms can't happen sooner-but there's a big difference between possible and probable.

One of the unfortunate things about CAH is the dog usually doesn't show any outward symtoms until a significant portion of the liver is destroyed-70% or more.

I lost a male to this disease in 2008-although we discovered his liver disease in 2006 through bloodwork, he showed no outward symptoms until less than 30 days before he was pts. When he did begin to show symptoms, it began with increased drinking/urination. Then progressed rapidly to anorexia, fluid buildup in the abdomen, and ultimately neurological issues, which is when he was pts.

The bitch who lives here now, Razzle, was diagnosed with CAH through bloodwork and subsequent liver biopsy in 2008. To this day she's still completely asymptomatic at 6+ years old.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It would be pretty unusual to see a young puppy showing symptoms of chronic active hepatitis. The average age of diagnosis is around 5 years of age, it's generally a late onset disease. That's not to say symptoms can't happen sooner-but there's a big difference between possible and probable.
Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I figured I was most likely "finding Zebras" but hadn't found anything that really came out and said it was a later in life, disease (generally). I will keep it in mind during future appointments, but perhaps I dont have to worry SOOO much, right this minute.
 

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My boy was dignosed about two months before his fith birthday, He has CAH and copper toxcity. He didnt show sighns at all then out of no where didnt eat and was joundice (sp?) Good luck.
 
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Only a full blood panel will tell you what state the liver is in - ALT, AST, ALK PHOS are the main numbers. There is a specific blood test to check the pancreas which you may want to consider. There are usually no symptoms at first and big thirst with weight loss are the first to usually appear.
My vet just told me last week that if a liver is going into slow failure, the enzyme levels will not be elevated, depending on how much of the liver remains healthy.

Most liver issues are found in routine blood work for other reasons - annual, pre-surgery, etc. A dog I have never shows signs of liver issues; his enzymes just escalate to horrible levels and then we jump thru hoops to bring it all down. But nothing shows up on him physically or behaviorally. We just keep on tweaking diet and meds to keep him in the normal zone.

PS: dx was at 13 mths of age for pre-surgery bloodwork for neutering
 

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Not To Scare You

Bond girl's sire was the litter mate brother of my "Minnie" who had copper storage disease. She was an R.P. Daughter. R.P. had copper storage disease. He was sired by Lex Luther.

Being that I have worked in medicine and law so much in my career, I was right on top of it when this became evident. This was why I had such a good outcome in the copper storage disease. It was managed successfully.
Though it was very expensive to manage. I caught the disease before there was any liver damage.

What took Minnie, as well as Bond girl's sire, was sudden death cardio.

So, when I got this new puppy, though not so related, I was such a nut about liver problems; I took her in every 4 months to make sure all was well. I sort of became like a "holter" liver nut.

It really surprised me when Minnie collaped with her heart on the spot. She had just passed ultra sound and holter just 2 weeks before. It really is a heart rhythm disease that is "cardio" in Dobermans.

Enjoy your pup. This breed is littered with problems. Which is now the reason I allow them to sleep in my bed with me. You never know when you can lose them. You just have to enjoy them for the day.

The first symptoms of which Minnie had was anoxeria. (not eating) It didn't matter what was offered, she did not want it. I think it struck at about 1 year of age.

The liver builds up toxins very fast when they don't eat. So there were times I had to stuff her for periods of like 3 months until her liver would kick back in. I did this with a fractured wrist and cast too. I did it because that was the dog of my life. And, she still is the top Doberman I have ever owned.

I would take her back in a heart beat. I spayed her, though I had bought her to show. It is irresponsible to breed an affected dog with this in my opinion.

She had a beautiful pedigree. Her grandsire was Thunder. While Thunder produced a lot of cardio, far enough back I feel it is safe; because you cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. Thunder produced some of the nicest temperments out there.

There is so much good and bad out there in this breed. All you can do now is make your best guesstimate and go from there.

Just enjoy your pup. That's all any of us can do. I don't think at this young of age you can know anything yet. Its like us worrying about having cancer. Worry about it when you get it. Why be miserable inbetween and live it twice?
 

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Maybe this is not appropriate because you have a very good vet and trust him competely and everything is fine - in this case just forget what I am writing now.
But - if there are significant deviations in your pups bloodwork I would check in with a specialist. I have made not so good experiences with vets who always give antibiotics when they find "something", hoping it might go away and saying: come back in two weeks.
There are wonderful specialists out there, in this case maybe a vet for internal medicine. The visit there costs you a little bit more but not really much. My cardiologists office fees were 20 bucks more compared to my standard vet. Laboratory costs and medications cost me less because they had it all on premisses. What I learned for myself: when my dogs will have issues or real symptoms in the future, I will always go to a specialist, right away, without asking the standard vet. No more antibiotics and wait and see.
 

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Maybe this is not appropriate because you have a very good vet and trust him competely and everything is fine - in this case just forget what I am writing now.
But - if there are significant deviations in your pups bloodwork I would check in with a specialist. I have made not so good experiences with vets who always give antibiotics when they find "something", hoping it might go away and saying: come back in two weeks.
There are wonderful specialists out there, in this case maybe a vet for internal medicine. The visit there costs you a little bit more but not really much. My cardiologists office fees were 20 bucks more compared to my standard vet. Laboratory costs and medications cost me less because they had it all on premisses. What I learned for myself: when my dogs will have issues or real symptoms in the future, I will always go to a specialist, right away, without asking the standard vet. No more antibiotics and wait and see.
This is so true, thank you!
 

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My boy is a lex grandson and has had liver issues basically his whole life :( My female was a lex grand daughter and never had liver issues, we lost her at 9 1/2 to cancer. The conventional vet couldn't really help him, hee did try though. He goes to Dr.Sharon Doolittle once a month, is on a large supplement regimen and semi raw diet of 4 meals a day. He is alive and doing well but costs me an arm and a leg ! He would not be if it wasn't for her methods, I would have had to euthanize him, not an option! He will be 5 in march :)
 

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thanks to all of you for all your information on this disease... it needs to be out there so people know the signs.. sooner it is discovered better chance of longer life expectency..
 
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