Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,038 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Lifelong Immunity: Why Are Vets Pushing Back?


Did you know your dog’s (and your cat’s) vaccines last a lot longer than 3 years?

The duration of immunity for Rabies vaccine, Canine distemper vaccine, Canine Parvovirus vaccine, Feline Panleukopenia vaccine, Feline Rhinotracheitis, feline Calicivirus, have all been shown to last*a minimum of 7 years by serology (measuring blood antibody levels) for rabies and challenge studies for all the rest.

In the*Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and What We Don’t Know, Proceedings – Canine Infectious Diseases: From Clinics to Molecular Pathogenesis, Ithaca, NY, 1999, *Dr Ronald Schultz,*a veterinary immunologist at the forefront of vaccine research and chair of the University of Wisconsin’s Department of Pathobiological Sciences, outlines the duration of immunity*for the following vaccines:


Minimum Duration Of Immunity For Canine Vaccines

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology


Dr Schultz concludes: “Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.” *(Are we vaccinating too much*JAVMA, No. 4, August 15, 1995, pg. 421)

Yet vets continue to vaccinate annually. Dog owners feel that their vets are doing their dogs a great service by vaccinating every three years instead of annually – why do we allow it when these studies were done over thirty years ago and have been replicated time and again by other researchers?
Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.

Ian Tizard states:* “With modified live virus vaccines like canine parvovirus, canine distemper and feline panleukopenia, calicivirus, and rhinotracheitis the virus in the vaccine must replicate to stimulate the immune system. In a patient that has been previously immunized, antibodies from the previous vaccine will block the replication of the new vaccinal virus. Antibody titers are not significantly boosted. Memory cell populations are not expanded. The immune status of the patient is not enhanced.

After the second rabies vaccination, re-administration of rabies vaccine does not enhance the immune status of the patient at one or two year intervals.* We do not know the interval at which re-administration of vaccines will enhance the immunity of a significant percentage of the pet population, but it is certainly not at one or two year intervals.*Tizard Ian, Yawei N, Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals, JAVMA, vol 213, No 1, July 1, 1998.
Vaccination-DNM

"The recommendation for annual re-vaccination is a practice that was officially started in 1978.”* says Dr. Schultz.* “This recommendation was made without any scientific validation of the need to booster immunity so frequently. In fact the presence of good humoral antibody levels blocks the anamnestic response to vaccine boosters just as maternal antibody blocks the response in some young animals.”

He adds:* “The patient receives no benefit and may be placed at serious risk when an unnecessary vaccine is given. Few or no scientific studies have demonstrated a need for cats or dogs to be revaccinated. Annual vaccination for diseases caused by CDV, CPV2, FPLP and FeLV has not been shown to provide a level of immunity any different from the immunity in an animal vaccinated and immunized at an early age and challenged years later. We have found that annual revaccination with the vaccines that provide long-term immunity provides no*demonstrable benefit.".....

For the rest of the article refer to the link at the top.
 

·
Da Boss
Joined
·
3,467 Posts
We did a titer for distemper (if I remember correctly) with Brandy and it was almost $100! It turned out she still had immunity, so we didn't need to give her the shot again. Definitely more expensive than the shot though, but I think it's worth it to not over vaccinate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,780 Posts
Can someone explain what this part means I'm confused?








Lifelong Immunity – Why Vets Are Pushing Back


Lifelong Immunity: Why Are Vets Pushing Back?


Did you know your dog’s (and your cat’s) vaccines last a lot longer than 3 years?

The duration of immunity for Rabies vaccine, Canine distemper vaccine, Canine Parvovirus vaccine, Feline Panleukopenia vaccine, Feline Rhinotracheitis, feline Calicivirus, have all been shown to last*a minimum of 7 years by serology (measuring blood antibody levels) for rabies and challenge studies for all the rest.

In the*Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and What We Don’t Know, Proceedings – Canine Infectious Diseases: From Clinics to Molecular Pathogenesis, Ithaca, NY, 1999, *Dr Ronald Schultz,*a veterinary immunologist at the forefront of vaccine research and chair of the University of Wisconsin’s Department of Pathobiological Sciences, outlines the duration of immunity*for the following vaccines:


Minimum Duration Of Immunity For Canine Vaccines

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Thanks Linda for all of your posts! Always informative!

Because I had to fight so many vets I recently started going to a half holistic vet and so far I'm very happy. I don't mind if tittering costs more money to me it's worth it to not over vaccinate.
 

·
Super Moderator
Hairy Dog, RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Joined
·
25,102 Posts
Of course, a decent vet does a complete physical to check for other problems during that yearly visit folks make for their dog’s shots.

Not arguing for shots to be given yearly--only saying that a lot of folks would probably never bring their dogs to the vets for any checkups if they didn’t have that yearly routine of shots to remind them. I don’t even get around to a yearly physical for myself.

In an ideal world with responsible dog owners, following the titer method is the way to go--but not sure it is something to be recommended to everyone. If a vet can catch other developing problems in a dog’s health with yearly blood work and other testing during the annual physical which accompanies that annual shot cycle, it might outweigh the problems that can be caused by giving too many shots.
 

·
formerly known as moona
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Of course, a decent vet does a complete physical to check for other problems during that yearly visit folks make for their dog’s shots.

Not arguing for shots to be given yearly--only saying that a lot of folks would probably never bring their dogs to the vets for any checkups if they didn’t have that yearly routine of shots to remind them. I don’t even get around to a yearly physical for myself.

In an ideal world with responsible dog owners, following the titer method is the way to go--but not sure it is something to be recommended to everyone. If a vet can catch other developing problems in a dog’s health with yearly blood work and other testing during the annual physical which accompanies that annual shot cycle, it might outweigh the problems that can be caused by giving too many shots.
Very good points, melbrod. I didn't think of it this way before. Once Dexter was diagnosed with MMM, we stopped doing any vaccinations on him (except rabies) and titer for everything else. After that, I asked our vet to only do titers on Indy and Roxy and he refused - shots only. So, I found another vet. She's 100% on board with not over vaccinating. That being said, mine go in annually (or more!) for full blood work, general checkup, etc.

I think you are right though. There's a good chance a lot of people would stop going to the vet if there wasn't, in their mind, and annual reason to do so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,038 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Can someone explain what this part means I'm confused?








Lifelong Immunity – Why Vets Are Pushing Back


Lifelong Immunity: Why Are Vets Pushing Back?


Did you know your dog’s (and your cat’s) vaccines last a lot longer than 3 years?

The duration of immunity for Rabies vaccine, Canine distemper vaccine, Canine Parvovirus vaccine, Feline Panleukopenia vaccine, Feline Rhinotracheitis, feline Calicivirus, have all been shown to last*a minimum of 7 years by serology (measuring blood antibody levels) for rabies and challenge studies for all the rest.

In the*Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and What We Don’t Know, Proceedings – Canine Infectious Diseases: From Clinics to Molecular Pathogenesis, Ithaca, NY, 1999, *Dr Ronald Schultz,*a veterinary immunologist at the forefront of vaccine research and chair of the University of Wisconsin’s Department of Pathobiological Sciences, outlines the duration of immunity*for the following vaccines:


Minimum Duration Of Immunity For Canine Vaccines

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Thanks Linda for all of your posts! Always informative!

Because I had to fight so many vets I recently started going to a half holistic vet and so far I'm very happy. I don't mind if tittering costs more money to me it's worth it to not over vaccinate.
Do you mean the challenge and serology? If so, I'm thinking the challenge would be direct exposure to the disease whereas serology would be a titer.



Of course, a decent vet does a complete physical to check for other problems during that yearly visit folks make for their dog’s shots.

Not arguing for shots to be given yearly--only saying that a lot of folks would probably never bring their dogs to the vets for any checkups if they didn’t have that yearly routine of shots to remind them. I don’t even get around to a yearly physical for myself.

In an ideal world with responsible dog owners, following the titer method is the way to go--but not sure it is something to be recommended to everyone. If a vet can catch other developing problems in a dog’s health with yearly blood work and other testing during the annual physical which accompanies that annual shot cycle, it might outweigh the problems that can be caused by giving too many shots.
That's what the article says. However, the exam that goes with shots is purely physical. Eyes, ears, teeth, listening to the heart. The people who are going to have the blood checked or any other tests are the one's that are going to come in once a year anyway.

I'm not all that positive a person needs to take the dog in once a year anyway. That is unless they're on heartworm meds. A dog should be checked once a year to make sure there have been no breakthroughs, but if the dog is doing well, I'm just not a biggy on taking it in myself. I suppose if I was ever caught with one of those diseases that don't show till it's too late to do anything such as kidneys or liver, I would change my tune.

I do take Parker in yearly and have bloodwork, heartworm check because he's a doberman.

Very good points, melbrod. I didn't think of it this way before. Once Dexter was diagnosed with MMM, we stopped doing any vaccinations on him (except rabies) and titer for everything else. After that, I asked our vet to only do titers on Indy and Roxy and he refused - shots only. So, I found another vet. She's 100% on board with not over vaccinating. That being said, mine go in annually (or more!) for full blood work, general checkup, etc.

I think you are right though. There's a good chance a lot of people would stop going to the vet if there wasn't, in their mind, and annual reason to do so.
What was his reason for refusing to titer? I don't blame you for changing vet's!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
401 Posts
If only I was only going in to the vet once a year :rolleyesww: There are people who are so lucky?

I have always believed in the minimum necessary shots to keep my dogs healthy. Also remember that there are Distemper and rabies shots that are labeled for 3 years instead of 2, they may cost more but I always ask for them. Titering is unfortunately an imprecise science, but does provide valuable information. Many variables can affect whether or not a specific level of circulating antibody is sufficient to protect your dog if it were exposed to a disease. When you go this route it is very important to work with a veterinarian who has a lot of experience!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,038 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
If only I was only going in to the vet once a year :rolleyesww: There are people who are so lucky?

I have always believed in the minimum necessary shots to keep my dogs healthy. Also remember that there are Distemper and rabies shots that are labeled for 3 years instead of 2, they may cost more but I always ask for them. Titering is unfortunately an imprecise science, but does provide valuable information. Many variables can affect whether or not a specific level of circulating antibody is sufficient to protect your dog if it were exposed to a disease. When you go this route it is very important to work with a veterinarian who has a lot of experience!

You know what kilts me...when I was growing up, albeit a long, long time ago in a faraway galaxy, all vet's here gave two distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis combo shots. I'm thinking one at six weeks and one at eight, tho I might be off on the times slightly. This was back when everyone sent puppies off at six weeks in the fifties and sixties, tho maybe not show breeders.

When I bred my doberman litters in the early seventies, pups didn't leave till eight weeks, but shots remained the same, tho I did get a difference of opinion from a vet in a larger town. When I mentioned this to my vet, he adamantly stated he knew what worked where we lived and explained that dogs would run into the distemper virus here and there throughout their life and each occurrence would up their immunity. This was also when dogs ran loose and distemper was very common.

This had always rolled around in my head when mentions of yearly boosters came up and I never did them...ever, well, except for Parker. I might do another one, possibly two during the dog's lifetime and I've never had a problem, again, except for Parker. He has immunity problems and I just can't help but correlate them with all the vaccinations he received growing up.

When I had my two litters...just the difference in health was a shocker to me. I'm not saying Parker was a sickly pup as he was not, but just the difference in expected doberman puppy health today compared with "back in the day" is alarming to me because I can't help but wonder where this is going.

I will say Parker kept hurting himself and developed a very painful long lasting case of pano (I blame my overfeeding for the pano). The hurting himself, I now feel was a case of a reaction to an antibiotic for staph which affected his synovial fluid in his joints. My vet suggested giving Parker glucosamine when he was a puppy.

My breeder was supportive through pretty well all of this tho I know she had to dread seeing my emails after a point. I should have waited for longer before bringing things to her just to cut down on my whining. She did offer a my money back at one point, probably just so she would never have to hear from me again. I can only imagine how far her heart dropped when I said I would prefer another puppy if it came to that. :) The vet was wrong on his initial diagnosis...see, I should have waited for confirmation before reaching out to my breeder.

End
 

·
formerly known as moona
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Forgot to quote you, Linda. I honestly don't remember the reason that he gave, he was just very pro-vaccination and wouldn't even consider doing titers on the girls. Who knows, maybe he just didn't understand or know enough about titers? I don't know. In hindsight, it was probably a good thing as I absolutely adore the vet I'm with now.

If only I was only going in to the vet once a year :rolleyesww: There are people who are so lucky?
Can you imagine? I go so often and to different vets that I'm surprised I haven't shown up at the wrong vet or with the wrong dog!!
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top