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Am I discouraged to be honest. Importing is complicated and time consuming to the UK and it seemed more sensible to have a broker do the leg work to find us a suitable puppy.
Nope. Dollars to donuts you'll end up screwed, in the end.

Do the leg work. Do the research. Find breeders whose dogs you like. THEN talk to them, network.

This will take time. Time spent in research and networking is important, as you don't want to end up with a sickly dog with questionable temperament.

DAM : HD-A
SIRE: HD-B, vWD N/A, DCM N/N, B LOCUS B/B, Narcolepsy N/N

Any advice here?
Why isn't there any health testing on the dam? Why was this tiny scrap of information provided and the dam's registered name is not?

Seriously. Ditch the broker.
 

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I wish I were better informed on the European codes for these tests. I am sure someone else can chime in here that knows.
I am 'assuming' HD - A means Hip Dysplasia Excellent and HD - B means Hip Dysplasia Good.
DCM of course is Dilated Cardiomyopathy, but I don't know what N/N is. Maybe negative, but they might be referring to the DNA cheek swab which is not the same as
echocardiogram and a 24 hr. holter test. Those are the ones you want to ask about.
Honestly do not know what B LOCUS B/B would be. Sorry.
In addition to asking the breeder, they should also offer copies of tests done for your record keeping.
The vWD would be the VonWillderbrand disease for blood clotting in Dobermans.

Is there anyway you can bypass the broker just to email the breeders directly? As a breeder I would want personal conversation with prospective owner of one of my puppies.
I want to help, just thinking someone that has been thru this process could offer better advise.
We have a DT member here that has imported and knows many breeders in Europe. You might contact Kansa Dobermans.
 

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The B-locus part is a genetic test which just tells you whether the dog carries all black genes or has a recessive gene for red. Not exactly a health test, though it can be useful for breeders. A D-locus test would tell you whether you might have a chance of getting a dilute dobe from a particular breeding, which is of concern because of possible coat problems. Though again, that test may be useful for a breeder to predict possible coat colors puppies he might have from a particular breeding, but once you have a puppy on the ground, it is pretty obvious what color he is!

B/B means both genes the dog carries for coat color code for Black.

I'm thinking the DCM N/N result may refer to the genetic tests looking for markers to indicate if a dog might have a tendency to develop DCM. At this point, those test results are equivocal; some dogs with positive results never develop DCM, others who are negative do. These tests are of interest academically, as scientists try to track down causes of DCM and a way to track it in your breeding stock. But because we really don't know exactly what is going on with DCM, it is much more useful, mandatory really, that a breeder do a holter and echocardiogram on all dogs he intends to breed within 6 months to a year of the planned breeding.
 

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I believe the HD-B rating is the equivalent of OFA Fair to Good. Not sure about what it would be in the UK rating system, but it’s an acceptable rating, especially when bred to an HD-A Good to Excellent rated dog.

The N/A for the vWD (a bleeding disorder) test could mean either Not Available or Not Applicable. I would certainly want to know the vWD status of any puppy I bought.

The DCM N/N probably means that they have tested clear for one of the genetic markers associated with Dilated Cardiomyopathy, a serious heart condition that is extremely common in Dobermans. There are two known markers at the moment, and testing for them in nowhere near definitive as to a dog’s risk of developing it. As mentioned above, 24 hour holter monitoring and ultrasounds are considered much more accurate in determining cardiac health.
 

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Where is the FB page?
 

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So, Louise&Arron....

Your words: " We can’t do it another other way in the UK because cropping and docking is illegal!

I am going to toss my 2 cents in here.

First of all, all my boys have been cropped and docked. I really prefer the look. But more importantly, almost every breeder that I would consider unites their pups and humans with the pup cropped, docked and dew claws removed.

That being said. Ears and tails do not make the dog.

If I lived in a country that had a ban on ear cropping, I would easily live with dog with "natural" ears rather than risk a compromise of health, breeding and temperament.

If your only reason for importing a Doberman to the UK is cosmetic, I would reconsider your priorities.

One more thing... As others have said. You may be making a huge mistake using a broker.

In my experience, one really benefits from a nice relationship with the breeder of their pup.

You will not get that with a broker acting as a middleman.

Oh.. One other thing: The pedigree, health and competition information that you provided here is so lacking, that that alone would cause me to drop all communication with these people and start researching a qualified Doberman breeder.

Best to you in your search.

John
Portland OR
 

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Discussion Starter #29
However we decided to source our puppy I will do my research hence why I am here.

The health of the puppy is my main concern. Our reasons for wanting a cropped and docked Doberman is because this is the breed my husband fell in love with as a child before it was made illegal in the UK. I am looking for a healthy cropped and docked Doberman.

Unless the dog is a true working dog I believe the decision to crop and dock is a “cosmetic” one anyway, regardless of the legalities. But I also believe it is a personal decision, and I respect that.

Thank you all for your advice. I have a degree in biomedical science, I understand genetics, physiology and biology of disease in particular cancer, it is an area in which I work every day. Trust me I am trying to do the best thing here.




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Aritaur Dobermanns - Full Monty
I may as well put myself out there for criticism. It's kind of a boring day anyway with snow still coming down. But, I hope the day never comes that I could not have my cropped/docked Doberman.
At this point it is cropped or nothing, but if as much as I love this breed now, I would have to wait until I came face to face with that decision.
I have looked at this kennel in England before and thought, I 'may' be able to handle one of their gorgeous Dobermans with uncropped ears. Can't do the undocked tail, though.
I think an uncropped/undocked Doberman has to be twice as good as a cropped one to look good.
If I lived in UK I would check ARITAUR Dobermans for sure. They may even give good direction for importing from EU as it looks like they have done that themselves.
 
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I echo the others- stay away from a broker. It is a sure way to get scammed- the wrong puppy, a sick puppy, a puppy with no papers, or worse yet no puppy and you're out several thousand dollars (pounds). We have seen it happen here on DT.

While I do think it's best to deal face to face with a breeder, there are some breeders in Eastern Europe that do some health testing (I would want more than most offer, personally) and they regularly sell puppies abroad already cropped and docked. Good luck!
 

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My thought on the broker situation.

I think of them like a pet store.

If YOU were the breeder, would you put your puppies in someone else's pet store and just let anyone who comes along buy them? I just think that it says that the breeder really doesn't care who gets the puppies. Just sell them.

As a breeder, I WANT a first hand relationship with my buyers. I want to interview them, I want to meet them, I want to like them because I want us to be able to continue to have a relationship, I want to know what they need so that I can choose the right puppy for them. I want them to be able to comfortably contact me with any concerns. I don't want a language barrier, and I hope that doesn't sound racist - I just want to be able to communicate with my owners. Why should my owners have to pay someone else to do the things I should be doing for my puppies and my owners?

Secondly, that is very little health testing. Very little. I would not support that monetarily, which tacitly says you approve of them doing less than what responsible breeders are doing.

Six weeks away from getting a puppy and you don't even know who the parents are for sure. Nope. No way. Put your dollars away for now.
 

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It is tough looking for a puppy and the ban in the UK further complicates the situation.

When I was looking for a pup, Sugars breeder came to our house to meet us and do a home study on us. He brought a binder with all of the health testing on both parents and their pedigrees. We discussed our life with Coco and what we wanted in a dog and what we had to offer. This was prior to us filling out an application. Once I filled that out, he requested to do a vet reference check which I gladly consented to. I was pleased that he was checking me out so thoroughly. I then spoke to him one night on the phone for an hour and asked him my 10 questions I had for him. When we were both satisfied with each other, we decided to enter into a contract.

He is coming over this weekend as he has 1 of Sugars sisters still because he hasn't found the right home for her. The other 2 sisters have been placed and they both may come over also this weekend.

I value this relationship with him. I didn't have this with Coco as she was from a byb. We text and check in regularly. He has offered to watch Sugar if we go away. This relationship is important.

I wish you luck and hope things work out well.
 

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Just wanted you to know I have used this site before .........when you enter the link listed above .......go to the column that reads “about” ......then scroll to the very bottom..........you will see an option for “contact us”........you can email the holder of this blog and they might be able to give you more info regarding the dogs as well as the broker.
My dog Hoss is a European Doberman .....and this man from Doberman blog did some investigating for me.
Emailed day one......and they responded to me the very next day. Just a resource for you that might help with some of your questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Hi everyone thanks again for your advice.

I would like to just reiterate, perhaps I’ve not made this clear enough, that I won’t be spending any money on any puppy I am unsure about whoever I get it from.....no papers no puppy.....no heath checks no puppy......no pedigree no puppy.

I have taken your advice and have contacted a couple of breeders in the UK who have imported their dogs and bitches from Europe. I have even come across a breeder who has a dual location...Belgrade and London who I have asked advice from.

Thanks again....and I understand


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You might try sending a PM to member Iceman here on this forum. He hasn't posted in a while, but he's a breeder in Cyprus. He might have alerts turned on to get your message - it's a least worth a try. https://www.dobermantalk.com/member.php?u=8407
 

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DAM : HD-A
SIRE: HD-B, vWD N/A, DCM N/N, B LOCUS B/B, Narcolepsy N/N

Any advice here?


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This is insufficient health testing.

You would want to see for BOTH parents:
Hips (hips are done on both in this case)
vWD Status (only done on sire on this case)
At the very least an echo done in the last year from the date of breeding. Not done here.
Eyes, examined and certified by an ophtamologist. Also not done here.

Ideally - but I've not seen it as frequently done in europe, you'd also want to see:
A thyroid pannel at least one year before date of mating.
Elbows
A holter monitor test for the heart.

There are other health tests/results I would like seeing but they aren't what I consider bare bones minimum, non-negotiable.

The B locus is only useful in terms of knowing the possibility of the resulting offspring being either black or brown based. Interesting they don't have the D locus listed, as dilutes are not allowed in the European standard most Euro breeds test for it.

The DCM N/N is likely the PDK4 gene (also called DCM1) but it does not give the dog a clean bill of health regarding DCM as DCM is polygenic and we have thus far only located 2 of the suspected 30+ genes involved. This information is useful for research purposes, possibly for breeding, but it is not a 'health test' per se.

Also the hip grading system has changed in europe, it is now straight equivalent to OFA.
HD-A = Excellent
HD-B = Good
HD-C = Fair
HD-D = Borderline
etc.

I would definitely find a breeder you are interested in and then use a broker solely for the transport if you are unable to fly out yourselves.
A friend of mine had a good experience importing from Vital Screen in Belarus.
I just gave a quick look at their website, the dam of their latest litter is listed as being cardio free with an EKG and Echo-Doppler. The Sire just says cardio free so I would enquire further about what that means for him. I think they have their own transport/contact/broker people, as they seem to have a UK specific contact.

Of course I cannot vouch for them myself, I can only say my friend had a good experience, her bitch will be 3 this year, so far so good on all the health tests, she's a UKC Ch, got her BH and has her first CC to becoming a UDC Champion, her hips were rated good by OFA, only issue I can think of is she has a hard time tolerating and digesting grain, but that is minimal. Stellar temperament. Whether that's a fluke or a reflection of the breeding program as a whole is another question, but that's where you come in and do your homework. If possible ask for proof of the claimed health tests.

This is not an endorsement, simply giving you an idea of where to start looking and researching.
If you have any questions about what should be potential red flags, what kind of questions to ask, DT is here to help you.
http://www.vitalscreen.ru/pupies-.html
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I wanted to say thanks....after all your advice we ditched the importer and have since been in touch with a breeder.
She is a lovely lady and really cares about her dogs and the puppies.
After discussions about parents health I have seen health certificates and Doppler results for Dam and Sire.....all good!
Dam is Liberos sister and is also vWD carrier but Sire is clear so Pup will only carry the gene. We won’t breed so that’s ok with me.
The breeder has offered a contract that guarantees no known genetic conditions will affect pup - she is clearly serious about the health of the breed.
I get a really good feeling from her.

She has arranged transport to our door in about 6 weeks time so we don’t even need to worry about travelling to collect him.

Sooooooooo

This is Axel




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