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http://www.katoba.com/dobermans

I was wondering if anyone has any information regarding this breeder. I was searching the DPCA's breeder referral site for breeders on the West Coast and I came across this person. Most of the breeders on the West Coast I am [somewhat] familiar with, but this one I haven't heard/seen anything about.

There are a few things that bothered me, and if I may I will list them out. Now, if this is not allowed please let me know so I can edit my post.

While I realize I'm not experienced with breeding or genetics, I thought that breeding vWD carriers together was a bad thing to do? Is there more of a chance of producing puppies that are affected or carriers than clear?

Two parts of the questionnaire concerned me. I have questions with some of the statements, maybe someone can better explain them to me?

Request for driver's license number. That was removed recently, as it used to be on there a few months ago so it probably doesn't matter now? Why would the driver's license number matter?


Katoba Dobermans are co-owned by breeder through end of contract; said Katoba Dobermans deemed to be of conformation status are handled by the breeder or other professional handler of breeders choosing.


Do a lot of show breeders require a professional handler and not allow the owner to show their own dog? How do people start showing if they can't show their own dog? What does it mean by through the end of contract? Co-owning isn't a problem, that I can understand. I am just confused about the other questions above lol.

I haven't emailed them yet because I haven't found a lot of information regarding their kennel or AKC Championship titles, and honestly I'm hesitant at the moment. Would it be a good idea to email the breeder of the bitch that whelped the litter and ask their opinion on this kennel since the bitch is from Sudahr? And is there other ways of finding information about their dogs before/if I contact them?

My last question is would it be smarter to talk with a kennel that is well known for their dogs and go from there than chosing a kennel that isn't as well known? I'm a novice in selecting a breeder, but have done homework on what to look for.

Anything at all would be appreciated. Again, if this type of post is not allowed please let me know so I can edit it.

Becca
 

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I don't personally know them so I can't comment. Their dogs have been shown here though and I know their handlers. They would be easy enough to check out by asking around as you are doing. Their bitch Echo is a littermate to my Cher's dam.
 

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http://www.katoba.com/dobermans

I was wondering if anyone has any information regarding this breeder. I was searching the DPCA's breeder referral site for breeders on the West Coast and I came across this person. Most of the breeders on the West Coast I am [somewhat] familiar with, but this one I haven't heard/seen anything about.

There are a few things that bothered me, and if I may I will list them out. Now, if this is not allowed please let me know so I can edit my post.

While I realize I'm not experienced with breeding or genetics, I thought that breeding vWD carriers together was a bad thing to do? Is there more of a chance of producing puppies that are affected or carriers than clear?

Two parts of the questionnaire concerned me. I have questions with some of the statements, maybe someone can better explain them to me?

Request for driver's license number. That was removed recently, as it used to be on there a few months ago so it probably doesn't matter now? Why would the driver's license number matter?


Katoba Dobermans are co-owned by breeder through end of contract; said Katoba Dobermans deemed to be of conformation status are handled by the breeder or other professional handler of breeders choosing.


Do a lot of show breeders require a professional handler and not allow the owner to show their own dog? How do people start showing if they can't show their own dog? What does it mean by through the end of contract? Co-owning isn't a problem, that I can understand. I am just confused about the other questions above lol.

I haven't emailed them yet because I haven't found a lot of information regarding their kennel or AKC Championship titles, and honestly I'm hesitant at the moment. Would it be a good idea to email the breeder of the bitch that whelped the litter and ask their opinion on this kennel since the bitch is from Sudahr? And is there other ways of finding information about their dogs before/if I contact them?

My last question is would it be smarter to talk with a kennel that is well known for their dogs and go from there than chosing a kennel that isn't as well known? I'm a novice in selecting a breeder, but have done homework on what to look for.

Anything at all would be appreciated. Again, if this type of post is not allowed please let me know so I can edit it.

Becca
It's not at all uncommon to see breedings that are carrier x carrier. Each puppy in the litter has a 25% chance of being clear, 50% chance of being carrier, 25% chance of being affected.

The reason these breeding have been considered acceptable is due to the shortage of clear dogs. Restricting breeding to clear x clear or even clear x carrier would shrink the genepool down too far, and create a situation that has far more potential for danger than producing an affected puppy. Instead, it was suggested that breeders take a couple of generations to improve their vWD status. This is working-there are more clear dogs around than ever before, but we're still not at the point where carrier x carrier breeding can be completely eliminated.

While I can see breeders requiring references, I think requiring driver's license #'s is overly intrusive-I wouldn't supply that if I were looking for a puppy.

Some breeders *do* require that their show prospects be handled by a professional handler-they normally provide a list of handlers they consider acceptable. Some do this for all show prospects, some make that a requirement on a case by case basis, with that requirement in place for their very, very best.

I can see both sides of this issue-I understand why the breeders do this, but I can also see that it might be frustrating for a newbie who wants to owner handle. There's SO MUCH to learn with that first show dog-and there's a world of time to learn to handle along the way, so the next dog can be one you could handle yourself.

In many cases, the "end of contract" is when you provide the breeder with a pick puppies or puppies. At that time, the contract is satisfied and you're given sole ownership of your dog. But the end of contract could be any time or with any terms the breeder chooses-it's up to the buyer to decide if they want to accept those terms. A puppy back IS a pretty common term with co owned dogs.

To the best of my knowledge, Kathy Babbit (Katoba) has yet to produce an AKC champion. She has puppies from her first litter being shown-they've finished in Canada and are minor pointed in the US. Time will tell if she'll be able to finish a dog in this country.

I don't have anything against people buying from smaller breeders. My last puppy came from a breeder who isn't particularly well known. But I think if a newbie wants a viable show prospect, they're probably better off buying from breeders who have consistently proven they can produce AKC champions. That definitely will maximize their chances.

I think you can do better. I know there was a problem about a deposit not being refunded by this breeder that became VERY public, and was a long term "situation".
 

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Yes, there was the VERY public situation about this breeder and a deposit not being returned. This is just my personal opinion but I have exchanged some emails with this breeder and I personally would not get involved with her.
 

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http://www.katoba.com/dobermans

I was wondering if anyone has any information regarding this breeder. I was searching the DPCA's breeder referral site for breeders on the West Coast and I came across this person. Most of the breeders on the West Coast I am [somewhat] familiar with, but this one I haven't heard/seen anything about.

There are a few things that bothered me, and if I may I will list them out. Now, if this is not allowed please let me know so I can edit my post.

While I realize I'm not experienced with breeding or genetics, I thought that breeding vWD carriers together was a bad thing to do? Is there more of a chance of producing puppies that are affected or carriers than clear?

Two parts of the questionnaire concerned me. I have questions with some of the statements, maybe someone can better explain them to me?

Request for driver's license number. That was removed recently, as it used to be on there a few months ago so it probably doesn't matter now? Why would the driver's license number matter?


Katoba Dobermans are co-owned by breeder through end of contract; said Katoba Dobermans deemed to be of conformation status are handled by the breeder or other professional handler of breeders choosing.


Do a lot of show breeders require a professional handler and not allow the owner to show their own dog? How do people start showing if they can't show their own dog? What does it mean by through the end of contract? Co-owning isn't a problem, that I can understand. I am just confused about the other questions above lol.

I haven't emailed them yet because I haven't found a lot of information regarding their kennel or AKC Championship titles, and honestly I'm hesitant at the moment. Would it be a good idea to email the breeder of the bitch that whelped the litter and ask their opinion on this kennel since the bitch is from Sudahr? And is there other ways of finding information about their dogs before/if I contact them?

My last question is would it be smarter to talk with a kennel that is well known for their dogs and go from there than chosing a kennel that isn't as well known? I'm a novice in selecting a breeder, but have done homework on what to look for.

Anything at all would be appreciated. Again, if this type of post is not allowed please let me know so I can edit it.

Becca
Like Murreydobe I wouldn't be particularly concerned with a carrier x carrier breeding. She has an excellent explanation so I won't reiterate.

I would not provide a breeder with a drivers license number--it is used (often) in commercial credit application but in those cases it is used only if there is payment failure to track down a skip. One would assume that you would be entering into a contract in good faith with no intentions to disappear.

Co-ownerships are fairly common--all of my dogs are co-owned--actually most of the dogs I've ever owned have been co-owned--I've never had a problem with it and for me it is one way of assuring that if something happened to me the dogs would be taken care of by their breeder and properly rehomed.

As far as show contracts go--all bets are off--there are some breeders who I'd never enter into a contract with--often it seems to me the more demands in a contract the more "iffy" the contract is. I've seen contracts where the breeder has retained the right to dictate what food the dog should be fed at what ages as well as what handler should be used.

I show my dogs--I never needed a contract to make sure that I did so--the best contracts I've seen are pretty open about this part of it. A lot of dogs don't turn out to be what the breeder hoped. Many breeders aren't really very good at picking litters. I think it's very hard to guarantee show vs pet puppies and novice breeders are often overly optimistic. Kathy Babbit (Katoba) is a novice breeder--this is the second litter she has bred. I know most of the dogs on both sides of the pedigree for at least three generations back. I also know the breeders of most of the dogs behind this litter for at least three generations back.

As far as being able to show your own puppy--it's one of the reasons that I'd never sign up for a contract like that. I used to be an owner handler--a reasonably successful one. With age and bad knees I don't show my own dogs any more but I'm well aware of my limitations--I think most prospective owner handlers either figure out how to do it (show their own dogs) and do it well enough to win with a good dog or they figure out they have no talent and hire a handler.

If you are in the market for a show prospect that you can owner handle I think I'd look elsewhere--someone else pointed out that she has not finished any of her dogs in AKC shows (she has finished dogs in Canada but that's a bit easier than doing it in the AKC shows)--I've seen these dogs from the first litter and I think they'd be tough for an owner handler to finish. They aren't bad dogs it's just that they have some problems that take more than a novice handler to figure out.

I'm not sure just what contacting Ket Ayrling (Sudahr) would do--she's been a successful owner handler but has on occasion used a professional handler to show her dogs. She's doing a decent job of breeding but I'm not sure what light she could shed on Kathy's breeding program or contracts.

Feel free to contact me privately if you [email protected]
 

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I haven't been on here for quite some time (forgot my user name and password lol) but I HAVE had personal experience with this kennel. Had to get things straighted out first with life and what not.

Anyway, from personal experience I would not recommend this breeder to anyone. I was recommended by a show breeder in Oregon to contact Katoba for mentoring/possible ring experience. Everytime I asked a question and gave my views/opinions about the question I got shot down and belittled.

When I got my pet Dobe, I had him neutered @ six months of age because he was not a show prospect, nor anywhere near breeding quality. He was basically a rescue now that I look back on it. I was still in contact with Babbit, and she had told me to get rid of him asap. I am not kidding, I have the emails saved. She had told me that none of the show people would ever take me seriously if I owned a backyard bred Doberman, even if I got obedience titles on him. Yes, the breeder of my dog did try her hand at showing in confirmation but her Dobes weren't show prospects. Which honestly showing a dog doesn't mean a person is a good breeder or has good dogs. She did have health info for the dogs in the pedigree, but few for the sire and dam. Being a novice (and probably an idiot) I got the dog and I paid for the ear crop that was already done. He would have been cropped either way.

Since there's nothing wrong with my boy[behavior/temperament wise], I felt it was horribly irresponsible for Babbit to tell me to get rid of him right away, then mention she had a litter coming up and I could co-own a show quality puppy with her.

I made a commitment to this dog and I do not regret it at all. I refuse to throw him away, he's my dog and I'll do whatever I can to work with him on anything. That's how it should be in my opinion. I'm a novice, and I think jumping right into showing would be a bad idea anyway. I know the mistakes I made and I know not to do them again.

Another thing that honestly confused me is Babbit's response to my comment on I would rather start out with a pet and go from there. What if I had decided that Dobermans are not my breed, and had entered into a contract with a show dog? Yes I could return the dog to its owner but the commitment I made would still stand. I wouldn't get rid of a dog just because I ended up not liking the breed like I thought I would, I just would not get another one. Aside from that, a show dog has more requirements than a pet dog. She could not understand this. Yes, they both require medical attention, good food, attention and love; training, exercise, but show dogs require a bit more training and condition. Then there's entry fees, handler fees if one is used, hotel fees if you travel with the dog and hand off ringside, and let's not forget if the contract states breeding a litter from that dog or bitch. Then there's health testing and if you own the bitch pre breeding exams, exams during pregnancy, increase in food and supplements if used, possible problems during and after pregnancy, possible C-section, the list goes on. I know most of the people on here understand this, but in case others don't it'll help paint a picture.

With a pet, responsible owners don't have to worry about breeding if they have their dogs altered at a specific time, they don't have to worry about showing and the fees that come with it, training may or may not be as intense, and condition doesn't have to be the same amount as it would a show dog.

Now I know that I want to do obedience with my Dobe, and I know the fees for that and classes will add up, but they may or may not exceed what it would be for confirmation showing.

I'm learning new things about Dobermans from living with one. Some things I adore and others I despise but that's how it goes. The good outweighs the bad anyway. I'm learning new training techniques that I've never used before, and honestly I prefer it this way. Although I don't know many people with young males so I'm kind of in the dark with that one, I'll post another topic elsewhere lol.

I'm sorry I'm ranting, but aside from her issues with not refunding that deposit I wouldn't recommend her as a mentor either. As I said, I find it irresponsible to tell someone that, mention co owning a show "quality" puppy (when I already told her I was not interested in her dogs, I did that politely), telling you no one will take you seriously, and then belittle you when you ask questions and try to have a conversation about the questions you've asked.

I saw the driver's license request too, that was when I first started talking with her about a year or so ago. There was also a background check request. We discussed that and I told her that personally I would not give out that information. A background check I can understand because of the reputation this breed has and the idiots who think they're image will boost if they have "a very mean dog".

Since then I've been lucky to meet and talk to a few wonderful people in the Doberman world. I value their information, their time, and their confidence in me. They know who they are, one (or two) post on here. If it wasn't for those few people, I would have stopped persuing a reputable/responsible/kind show breeder.

Okay, I'm done now.

Meagen
[formerly lykanthropy, account got hacked long ago by liz]
 

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Meagen,

Seth is a Beautiful Boy! I would'nt of traded him eaither!

This women sounds like an ass. There are lots out there. I was turned off from showing by quite a few breeders like her. Though I have also met some great show breeders. Unfortunatly, the good ones were busy. And none had litters coming anytime soon.
Maybe someday, I will again look into show, When the kids are grown and out on there own.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I'd be safer to go with a different breeder! So many to choose from, but I'll narrow it down somehow. I was thinking of CARA since they do obedience quite a lot. Time will tell I guess. I'll be browsing around this site and learning new information!

Thanks!

Becca
 

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Hi Alchemist. Had I been on this list prior ...

http://www.katoba.com/dobermans

I was wondering if anyone has any information regarding this breeder. I was searching the DPCA's breeder referral site for breeders on the West Coast and I came across this person. Most of the breeders on the West Coast I am [somewhat] familiar with, but this one I haven't heard/seen anything about.

There are a few things that bothered me, and if I may I will list them out. Now, if this is not allowed please let me know so I can edit my post.

While I realize I'm not experienced with breeding or genetics, I thought that breeding vWD carriers together was a bad thing to do? Is there more of a chance of producing puppies that are affected or carriers than clear?

Two parts of the questionnaire concerned me. I have questions with some of the statements, maybe someone can better explain them to me?

Request for driver's license number. That was removed recently, as it used to be on there a few months ago so it probably doesn't matter now? Why would the driver's license number matter?


Katoba Dobermans are co-owned by breeder through end of contract; said Katoba Dobermans deemed to be of conformation status are handled by the breeder or other professional handler of breeders choosing.


Do a lot of show breeders require a professional handler and not allow the owner to show their own dog? How do people start showing if they can't show their own dog? What does it mean by through the end of contract? Co-owning isn't a problem, that I can understand. I am just confused about the other questions above lol.

I haven't emailed them yet because I haven't found a lot of information regarding their kennel or AKC Championship titles, and honestly I'm hesitant at the moment. Would it be a good idea to email the breeder of the bitch that whelped the litter and ask their opinion on this kennel since the bitch is from Sudahr? And is there other ways of finding information about their dogs before/if I contact them?

My last question is would it be smarter to talk with a kennel that is well known for their dogs and go from there than chosing a kennel that isn't as well known? I'm a novice in selecting a breeder, but have done homework on what to look for.

Anything at all would be appreciated. Again, if this type of post is not allowed please let me know so I can edit it.

Becca
...I would have gladly answered any questions you may have had. Likewise, had you contacted me directly, I would have done so as well.
First of all the issue of Carrier to carrier breedings. Many folks have differing opinions about this. vWd is not a simle disease and I HAVe owned a clinically affected bleeder, in lay terms. This casued me to fear ever breeding in a situation that may pose the issue of affected dobermans. During the course my my studying and following the knowledgeable breeders who cam ebefore3 me, I was able to decifer the possibilities and believe that if everything else in is place for a specific breeding then the vWd status - shile not to be ignored - is not on the top of the health issue list. I would never breed an affected dog to and afeected bitch ... that is MY PERSONAL decision ... some have done it without issue ... I choose not to. I have 2 clear, 2 affected, and one carrier out of my first litter. I am awaiting the results on my March 4th litter, as I tested ALL the puppies before they began placements in their homes. I think those who have a concern should be able to know IF they choose to or at least be made aware of the possiblities if it is a concern to them.
The second item you listed re: drivers license. I used to have a line for drivers license number on my questionnaire. My questionnaire is comprised of applications from two other breeders, two breeder judges and 2 books. both books (including "Breeding a Litter") claim you should request a drivers license number. Some tell you it is necessary due to the checks written for the dogs. Well, I removed it because we have been victims of ID theft and that drivers license # is NOT something i want to be responsible for unless there is a reason. It is suggested that it provides photo ID of the buyer. Well, I decided if I did not take a personal check then there was no reason for the request of the drivers license #; I take a photo of the buyer with the dog before they leave with the dog; I do a home check and try to check address records and employment location, etc; I contact references. The address and phone # are on the questionnaire so I did not feel the Driver's license number was necessary any longer and I fell better without the responsibility of it.
Thirdly ... a contract can make any statmet the breeder wants it too including the item of handlers. The contract itself is rarely more than a mirror image of the integrity of the signatures. My first show bitch, Echo, was not handled to our satisfaction and was later a contractual nightmare which ended. I tried to do it myself and it became novice handler 101 with this poor red bitch my guinea pig. There was no item of detail in our contract about handling resturctions but I pulled the bitch and was later approached by a handler regarding her being back in the ring. Within 3 months with that handler (Teresa Ross) Echo had 6 points including a 4 point major. If my wonderful breeder would have felt more comfortable she probably would have told me to stay off the bitch and get a REAL handler. We have since grown close enough that she would do that now!!! :) In order to eleviate embarrassment to the breeder (I can only imagine what my "learning" did to Ket's heart - yikes), not hinmder the success or potential of the dog, I believe that an owner should be able to see past themselves long enough to see the true goals. There are PLENTY of places for an owner to show a dog without jeapordizing the true ring potential of the dog (for alck of a better phrase) - the IABCA shows: I will handle my dogs at an IABCA show but always have the owners (if they want to) take the dog bad in if they all win their classes (this just happened to us in Feb. THere are also fun matches where it is nice to "play handler" with your dog. If someone has a true aspiration to learn to handl a dog, the mentor under some very good handlers in their area. But I think it is good to trust your breeder as who else knows or SHOULD know that puppy better than the one whose had his'her head in that whelping box for months :). And, not all dogs are owner handler dogs. ECho and I were a case in point ! I think most any breeder will be encouaging of you unless it is really hindering the dog's presentation, then I would respect my breeder's wishes. Some are not that gracious or respectful so things need to be in writing - at least the intent of the contract should be and then you rely on the integrity of both who sign.
In your post you even state you did not contact me to inquire about the dogs. Why would you think anyone else would know them better or know more?!?!?! I can tell you that I have owned dobermans, as stated, since 1996. My first was a black bitch ~ a glorified rescue - and without her I would not have had another doberman. She was unable to participate in most activities because of the arthritis in her hips and the fact that her vWd was severe and a nick of a toenails was a large vet bill. Our second doberman came into our lives in 2001 from Ket Ayling's Raini x Journey litter. Echo is a dream girl. Did not finish and I regret that. She could have I believe. I obtained a red Male in 2004 - Rock is my soul dog and i hope to finish him someday, even though i know he won't be bred back into my own lines. Riley dies shortly after Rock came into our lives. Echo was bred to Carson in 2005 - she has one GORGEOUS male who could have finished fairly easily, but I did not see the point in continueing when the litter was only just over a year old when the sire died at 5 yrs of age from DCM and theGreat grandsire (on BOTH sides) from DCM as well. Preacher went to live in his non show home (great people) and is training for the performance rings now. His littermate sister, Piper is a Multi BOB/BPIB Can Int'l CH and is going to be shown more now in the AKC ring since i have chosen to hand HER off to someone who I think does a better job than myself with her. There are three other male in the litter - 2 IABCA Champions, and a ptd dog with a CGC. The boys should all be neutered and serioud health testing and CAREFUL breeding will be done with Piper. Thus far I have not handle or bred a dog to it's AKC CHampionship - but have done so with several in Canada.
Echo's second and final litter was to Tijac's Classic Topp Model. THere is more longevity and health, angles and fronts in this breeding and I am thrilled.
Then you had some concerns over the lack of infomation on the kennel ~ I do not own a kennel and we are not commercial breeding. I do not support that and feel we should only breed if we are wanting to keep something from a litter and or there is something specific we want to hope to improve. I shy away from volume breeders and or "kennels" - my preference. My puppies are raised EXACTLY how I hope they live later in life - active, indoors (except for outdoor playtimes). NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO ... you can always get better that what you are looking at. THere will always be someone better that me and I will alwayus be a step ahead of someone else. THat is life.
I say talk TO abreeder and share you goals and concerns etc. If they are hard sales people or pressuring you for a placement, then you should RUN... not walk ... away from that breeder. If they are willing to mentor you and gie you time and dedication, they may be right for you no matter how ling they may or may not have been in the breed. Having more puppies does not make one a better breeder ~~~~~
God Bless and I hope you find the dog of your dreams!!
Kathy
 

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Bug Russel .. is this you ??:)

Like Murreydobe I wouldn't be particularly concerned with a carrier x carrier breeding. She has an excellent explanation so I won't reiterate.

I would not provide a breeder with a drivers license number--it is used (often) in commercial credit application but in those cases it is used only if there is payment failure to track down a skip. One would assume that you would be entering into a contract in good faith with no intentions to disappear.
The request for a drivers license was removed for the following reasons: I do not accept personal checks at all for any business anymore. Also, it was simply a cut of questions and originally from the book entitled "BReeding a litter". I take a photo of the dog and owner prior to the dog leaving; I do home checks and check info the prosepctive buyer gives me; and I have a contract and rely on integrity of the signer.

Co-ownerships are fairly common--all of my dogs are co-owned--actually most of the dogs I've ever owned have been co-owned--I've never had a problem with it and for me it is one way of assuring that if something happened to me the dogs would be taken care of by their breeder and properly rehomed.

Exactly !!

As far as show contracts go--all bets are off--there are some breeders who I'd never enter into a contract with--often it seems to me the more demands in a contract the more "iffy" the contract is. I've seen contracts where the breeder has retained the right to dictate what food the dog should be fed at what ages as well as what handler should be used.

Some are too nitpicky and some are too loose with too much gray. No matter .... if you sign a contract, you better darn well have the integrity and intension of honoring the document(s) which you sing without manipulation or greed or or or :) (you see where I am going). In general you are totally right though - each breeder must and DOES GET TO act in the manner in which they find bet interest of the dog. If not, what is all this for.


I show my dogs--I never needed a contract to make sure that I did so--the best contracts I've seen are pretty open about this part of it.

Do you mean you HANDLE your own dogs or you make sure they are shown?? Knowing that this is taken care of thought and through the direction of your breeder, things work out great for you - and I would venture to guess that is because you are a woman of proven integrity with that said breeder :) and I bet you have never deliberately disrespected of challenged you breeder or her program goals either. right?!


A lot of dogs don't turn out to be what the breeder hoped. Many breeders aren't really very good at picking litters. I think it's very hard to guarantee show vs pet puppies and novice breeders are often overly optimistic.


I do not think one should ever try to guarentee show home - how can one possibly prodict a guarentee of a CHAMPIONSHIP when looking at an 8 wk old pup, without preconcieved knowledge of political manipulation??? i place all my puppies for the same fee because at the end of the day (or career) there is no loss or gain from those who do not become CH or DO become Ch and then possibly have a health issues later on, etc. Retaining a right to a breeding or something agreed upon with the owner and breeder should the dog finish and show promise is a good thing I feel. This should be laid out WELL in advance of the placement I think though to avoid issue later.

Kathy Babbitt (Katoba) is a novice breeder--this is the second litter she has bred. I know most of the dogs on both sides of the pedigree for at least three generations back. I also know the breeders of most of the dogs behind this litter for at least three generations back.

Yes, Bug, this MUST be you :). Everyone is a novice in the first, oh say ten or so years :). I do not think breeding as a novice in ANY WAY means the puppies would automatically be lesser than that of someone who has bred 20 or 30 litters. Mixing up of genetic nakeup is just that. and as long as health testing is done and the pedigree is appropriate andthere is a purpose for the breeding, then it can be done well ... and it is still a crap shoot! Do not discount the well layed intensions of a novice with a goal in mind.

As far as being able to show your own puppy--it's one of the reasons that I'd never sign up for a contract like that. I used to be an owner handler--a reasonably successful one. With age and bad knees I don't show my own dogs any more but I'm well aware of my limitations--I think most prospective owner handlers either figure out how to do it (show their own dogs) and do it well enough to win with a good dog or they figure out they have no talent and hire a handler.

Unfoirtunately, there are those that drag a dog from show to show from the age of 6 months and a day, and as soon as they get that one finger point, they feel they are the creme de la creme of handlers and a dog that may be able to look good in the ring is now causing mortification of all involved. Some have "it", some work for it and others never get "it". In order to eleviate issues though, a wise woman once told me to PUT IT IT WRITING. Therefore i do and offer lots of tther otprios for an owner.

If you are in the market for a show prospect that you can owner handle I think I'd look elsewhere--someone else pointed out that she has not finished any of her dogs in AKC shows (she has finished dogs in Canada but that's a bit easier than doing it in the AKC shows)--I've seen these dogs from the first litter and I think they'd be tough for an owner handler to finish. They aren't bad dogs it's just that they have some problems that take more than a novice handler to figure out.

Thank you for what I think was a hidden compliment - I do think a couple from my first litter are nice !!! One being neutered now and the bitch who is being taken in now by Cathy Ceely. The third is being owner handled MUCH to my shegrin. He is NOT an owner handled dog YOU ARE CORRECT. THey are NOT bad dogs - and have lots of nice parts ... but NOT novice owner handler dogs.

I'm not sure just what contacting Ket Ayrling (Sudahr) would do--she's been a successful owner handler but has on occasion used a professional handler to show her dogs. She's doing a decent job of breeding but I'm not sure what light she could shed on Kathy's breeding program or contracts.

Apparently this person would rather backdoor for info ??? Never once made contact with me. Clearly it is more important to that prospective puppy home the she get to handle the dog than whether or not the dog finishes with solidity and professionalism. How likely is it that a seasoned breeder like MS is going to hand off a solid gorgeous dog to and owner handler????

Feel free to contact me privately if you [email protected]


Thanks again for your clarity and fairness in response. TOod bad she did not call me as we actually had TWO in this litter that may have gone to owner handler homes. Hmmmm. Kathy
 

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Thanks for clearing up the drivers licence thing. It makes perfect sence now. I'm sure it's hard seeing other people question your work. But alot of people ask about breeders here, and alot of breeders (After hearing about this site, and thier name being brought up) come back feircly to defend them selves. It's really hard to judge anyone from a website. I agree that a personal meeting is needed to make up one's mind. Puppy Millers are notorious for great web sites, and savy words over the phone. But in thier home one would be able to see what was going on for themselves. Also some of the older responsible breeders, and not very good with the computer still. And then some come off harsh over the phone. (I have talk to a few myself) So, When in dought, check them out I say.
 
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So I"m just trying to understand all aspects here as I know nothing of you, your program or your dogs, Echo did not finish, but you bred her twice anyway b/c you believed she could have?
 

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I haven't been on here for quite some time (forgot my user name and password lol) but I HAVE had personal experience with this kennel. Had to get things straighted out first with life and what not.

Anyway, from personal experience I would not recommend this breeder to anyone. I was recommended by a show breeder in Oregon to contact Katoba for mentoring/possible ring experience. Everytime I asked a question and gave my views/opinions about the question I got shot down and belittled.

When I got my pet Dobe, I had him neutered @ six months of age because he was not a show prospect, nor anywhere near breeding quality. He was basically a rescue now that I look back on it. I was still in contact with Babbit, and she had told me to get rid of him asap. I am not kidding, I have the emails saved. She had told me that none of the show people would ever take me seriously if I owned a backyard bred Doberman, even if I got obedience titles on him. Yes, the breeder of my dog did try her hand at showing in confirmation but her Dobes weren't show prospects. Which honestly showing a dog doesn't mean a person is a good breeder or has good dogs. She did have health info for the dogs in the pedigree, but few for the sire and dam. Being a novice (and probably an idiot) I got the dog and I paid for the ear crop that was already done. He would have been cropped either way.

Since there's nothing wrong with my boy[behavior/temperament wise], I felt it was horribly irresponsible for Babbit to tell me to get rid of him right away, then mention she had a litter coming up and I could co-own a show quality puppy with her.

I made a commitment to this dog and I do not regret it at all. I refuse to throw him away, he's my dog and I'll do whatever I can to work with him on anything. That's how it should be in my opinion. I'm a novice, and I think jumping right into showing would be a bad idea anyway. I know the mistakes I made and I know not to do them again.

Another thing that honestly confused me is Babbit's response to my comment on I would rather start out with a pet and go from there. What if I had decided that Dobermans are not my breed, and had entered into a contract with a show dog? Yes I could return the dog to its owner but the commitment I made would still stand. I wouldn't get rid of a dog just because I ended up not liking the breed like I thought I would, I just would not get another one. Aside from that, a show dog has more requirements than a pet dog. She could not understand this. Yes, they both require medical attention, good food, attention and love; training, exercise, but show dogs require a bit more training and condition. Then there's entry fees, handler fees if one is used, hotel fees if you travel with the dog and hand off ringside, and let's not forget if the contract states breeding a litter from that dog or bitch. Then there's health testing and if you own the bitch pre breeding exams, exams during pregnancy, increase in food and supplements if used, possible problems during and after pregnancy, possible C-section, the list goes on. I know most of the people on here understand this, but in case others don't it'll help paint a picture.

With a pet, responsible owners don't have to worry about breeding if they have their dogs altered at a specific time, they don't have to worry about showing and the fees that come with it, training may or may not be as intense, and condition doesn't have to be the same amount as it would a show dog.

Now I know that I want to do obedience with my Dobe, and I know the fees for that and classes will add up, but they may or may not exceed what it would be for confirmation showing.

I'm learning new things about Dobermans from living with one. Some things I adore and others I despise but that's how it goes. The good outweighs the bad anyway. I'm learning new training techniques that I've never used before, and honestly I prefer it this way. Although I don't know many people with young males so I'm kind of in the dark with that one, I'll post another topic elsewhere lol.

I'm sorry I'm ranting, but aside from her issues with not refunding that deposit I wouldn't recommend her as a mentor either. As I said, I find it irresponsible to tell someone that, mention co owning a show "quality" puppy (when I already told her I was not interested in her dogs, I did that politely), telling you no one will take you seriously, and then belittle you when you ask questions and try to have a conversation about the questions you've asked.

I saw the driver's license request too, that was when I first started talking with her about a year or so ago. There was also a background check request. We discussed that and I told her that personally I would not give out that information. A background check I can understand because of the reputation this breed has and the idiots who think they're image will boost if they have "a very mean dog".

Since then I've been lucky to meet and talk to a few wonderful people in the Doberman world. I value their information, their time, and their confidence in me. They know who they are, one (or two) post on here. If it wasn't for those few people, I would have stopped persuing a reputable/responsible/kind show breeder.

Okay, I'm done now.

Meagen
[formerly lykanthropy, account got hacked long ago by liz]
Meagan - Upon being forwarded this post, I spent some time trying to decide how to and or IF I would reply. Clearly you see the decision :). You emailed me DOZENS of times - telling me how you were in trouble with some other breeders and other lists regarding your comments and questions and such. I have spent COUNTELSS hours in mentorship with you and support of you and your work with your dogs. It was YOU who asked me to give you my real evaluation of your situation and the dog you chose to get. I was once told that if you do not want the answer do NOT ask the question. That siad you know we were VERY specific about clearing away all emotion and just looking at the detials and the logistics of the situation - that is what you led me to belive you wanted me to do and it was difficult. You told me you wanted a show dog, a dog to handle yourself, (in my opinion MOST show dogs are not 'owner-handler' dogs if you want a Championship), and that you wanted breeders handlers and others to find you very well intended in the show world as you also have show Danes. When you contacted me and suddenly said you and or your boyfriend did the impulse buy form a back yard doberman breeder I was shocked and THEN you wanted to know what I thought of him?????? Your post here is very misleading and unfair. I was VERY kind to you and was up until all hours when you "really needed some help" in making decisons and getting more feedback about your decisions. This type of post is potentially harmful and more importantly hurtfully tainted. I shared honest opinions when asked for them and I do not regret that, but what I DO regret is not seeing through your intensions. Now I understand why you aid so many others on different lists were so upset with you. I wish you LOTS of luck with your boy and I KNOW he will be well loved. I hope your dreams come true for a show dog in the future - hey, maybe you will be one of the lucky few who will be a successful owner handler as you already have experience with Danes!!! Kathy Babbitt
 

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an ass???

Meagen,

Seth is a Beautiful Boy! I would'nt of traded him eaither!

This women sounds like an ass. There are lots out there. I was turned off from showing by quite a few breeders like her. Though I have also met some great show breeders. Unfortunatly, the good ones were busy. And none had litters coming anytime soon.
Maybe someday, I will again look into show, When the kids are grown and out on there own.
Oh my, how kind of you :).
Actually I am not an ass. I was asked by Meagan to mentor a bit and in the process, she asked me to give her some specific details in sharing. I NVER wnated to hurt her feelings, but sometimes the opinions of other do feel a bit hurtful. I want to make it perfectly clear that I spent MANY ours online with Meagan as she was looking for just the right show dog, etc and I made many suggestions to her. She asked for my honest opinion as to what she should do once she got this dog and did not know what to do ... and I am not a candy coating person and gave her what I felt was an honest reply. AGINA - her claim that we have a long history is false - I have NEVER even met Meagan. As for your post here calling me an ass ..... I hope you are proud of your ill-knowledged judgement of someone you do not even know.
 

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Decisions based on trash talk ....

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I'd be safer to go with a different breeder! So many to choose from, but I'll narrow it down somehow. I was thinking of CARA since they do obedience quite a lot. Time will tell I guess. I'll be browsing around this site and learning new information!

Thanks!

Becca

Hi Becca. I wish you alot of luck in your search for a great doberman and a mentoring breeder. There are many wonderful people out there who will do the right things for thier dogs and hopefully you as well. I responded to your original post regarding questions you could have very easily come to me with as well. I hope this gives you more and accurate information !
These types of email and forum post sites and subscriptions are a wonderful thing to have when they are used properly. The mere fact that you have decided to go with another breeder after having been given information provided from memebers of this forum shows that they can also be dangerously harmful and those who sway in that direction of trashing are finding themselves in courts of law due to slander and liable. I think it is time is stops and that these forums are open to only positive responses and input. Until then, we all need to be aware that there are always eyes watching and ears listening. That is how I became aware of the inaccuracies of this list regarding me, my dogs, and even one of the handlers I know!!! Yikes.
 

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Goes to show there are 2 sides to every story.


Being a novice and owner of my first Dobe, a rescue. I have found this forum to be very informative. I know who I would go to on this forum to consult their advice on a reputable breeder for a show or pet quality Doberman. The amount of information out there is vast and this is just another place to obtain information.

I would like to take the time right now to thank all of the puppymillers and BYBers out there today that are making this much more comlicated than it should be. If it weren't for you, there would be no such thing as a breed rescue or ill-fated pets.
 
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Understanding all aspects ...

So I"m just trying to understand all aspects here as I know nothing of you, your program or your dogs, Echo did not finish, but you bred her twice anyway b/c you believed she could have?
I am not sure I understand your questions or intent. But I will try to give the best reply with the least amount of words:). There are extenuating timeline reasons why Echo was shown so sparingly once she was put with a well intended handler. Teresa Ross did a great job with Echo and put a 4 pt (5 broke by one bitch) Major on her and two singles within the first couple months of their initial meeting. I even pointed her myself, albeit it was a small Spokane show with a total of about a dozen dobermans. I had already pt and IABCA and a Can CH on her in short order. My husband and I agreed that we would show her for a specific time period and if not pointed would not breed her - if pointed, we would breed her as was originally planned and discussed then in detail with Echo's breeder. Had we not gotten the breeders blessing we would not have done so. Ket Ayling is thrilled with Echo's get and after speaking with her just alst evening, reaffirmed our decisions to have bred Echo - nd the second litter being far superior to the first with what we feel are already outstanding results and inprovements. We believe Echo had alot to offer and with any breeding one hopes to imporve on both sire and dam. We feel we have done that each time. I do extensive health testing and have monitored Echo since she was young (before it was "the thing" to do, in the opinion of many). Echo has contributed to the breed of dobermans and I am proud of what she has procuded. I felt her first litter was beautiful with two outstanding conformation pups and one possible conformation prospect. ALL are WONDERFUL companions with solid temperaments. The sire of the first litter died when the pups were about 14 months old from DCM - the sire was 5 years old, sadly. I made decisions not to persue those dogs as potential stud dogs and could never use them in my developing line. All but one of those families have cooperated and have neutered or are scheduled to be. I went in a completely different direction with the second breeding in type and in health/longevity. The lines go WAY back to long lived dogs and we got lovely conformation.
So, lots of aspects, and a MINOR overview as to why we believe in Echo as a producer. The first litter was small andwhile in the ring, the two slated for true conformation potential did quite well. The second litter is only 12 weeks old and are just now going to their homes - too soon to tell but we have alot of hope and confidence in them.
That said, it is not accurate to refer to "my lines" as I had little and nothing to do with what came before my foundation bitch. From that point, I am only trying to make the best decisions possible based on what we are presented with. Hope that clarifies a bit.
Kathy
 

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two sides ...

Goes to show there are 2 sides to every story.


Being a novice and owner of my first Dobe, a rescue. I have found this forum to be very informative. I know who I would go to on this forum to consult their advice on a reputable breeder for a show or pet quality Doberman. The amount of information out there is vast and this is just another place to obtain information.

I would like to take the time right now to thank all of the puppymillers and BYBers out there today that are making this much more comlicated than it should be. If it weren't for you, there would be no such thing as a breed rescue or ill-fated pets.
there are usually more like TENsides or at least angle to every story - hahaha. I say: the best we can do is the best we can do.
our individual decisions in the process of breeding and placment do not have to please everyone - we just have to be informed and have te right and responsible intent when doing so! Again - one persons red is another green, but if all were willing to go the extra mile, maybe there would be far less need for rescue etc.
Kathy
 

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I'm going to be devils advocate here but really have no angle as I live on the opposite coast and don't know Kathy at all.

I guess I really question your decision to pull a bitch with a major and breed her before she finishes. I think if I had done that with my Louise my breeder would have had my head on a platter before the litter hit the ground. Breeding Louise before she finished was never even an option because she was good enough to finish and by God that is what was expected of me before I ever discussed breeding her. We did not even talk stud dogs till she had both majors. So, if Echo was doing well, why did you not continue?

Also, I'm assuming that when you decided to ask the owners of the first litter and to spay/neuter and one declined.............. I'm guessing that is our Dragonman. You did not come out and say so, and since Drago's owner is on this forum and I don't think she has welcomed you here............ I conclude that this caused some problems between you. This has got to be uncomfortable for her to have you alluding to this issue on a forum she comes to to talk about her dog.

To the list moderators: I have no desire to cause problems here and I think everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves............ just asking questions that others may be thinking.
 

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I feel that when people ask about breeders on forums like this, they are genuinely looking for information other than what is on websites or can be obtained from the breeder themselves. I think they are looking for "references" before they take the time to contact the breeder. I feel that if you chose to breed, you should expect that people will ask around about your program. Just as if someone was standing at ringside, saw one of your dogs and asked around at at show about you as a breeder.

I do not believe the original poster's intent was malicious or ill-conceived. They just wanted to know what people think about a certain breeder.
 
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