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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So Jack got attacked by that Casey dog, the Australian Shepherd I mentioned in a recent thread. Casey just ran over and attacked him, leaving Jack with a few small wounds before I broke it up.

Now Jack's always been a sweet boy, well socialized and really good with other dogs. Just now though, I was at the beach and this other dog was there too. Now Jack has been fine around other dogs since that happened, but this was another un-neutered male approaching two years of age (same age as Jack) and Jack got his hackles up, growled a little, and barked at him. I was immediately reluctant to let Jack go because of this and cuz I was still a little paranoid after the last encounter with Casey but when the lady was all like 'oh its okay now, let them say do they their thing together, they'll sort it out', I reluctantly did so.

Immediately there was chest out posturing by Jack, up close with the other dog (which I discouraged as I saw it as a potential escalation), but shortly after Jack got a little testy. No real bites but he was growling and snapping at him. I broke it up quickly, it wasnt much of a scene`, but it left me upset, and thinking.

Now, Jack does get along with some other un-neutered males...Casey's brother in fact (around the very same picnic table that Casey got territorial). So was this just a one-off incident or will Jack be fundamentally different now around other males since Casey attacked him? Or is it just time to get him snipped, and if so, will that make it go away?
 

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Male - Male aggression is very common in Dobes. While some will tolerate other Males, IME most won't. I would definitely have him neutered and then make sure his playmates are females.
 

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sandy2233
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Set up for failure. I don't think this even needed to happen. Shame on both owners for letting it. Do you realize that even experienced people have a hard time breaking a dog fight up? Dangerous for you and the dogs.
 

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Jack is how old now & already attacked twice ?

Early snipping, isn't going to give you a new dog...my guess / historical baggage, lives on, and the more occurences...the worst it becomes triggered.

We have to setup them for the win-win, and the owner has to do this...period.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
You guys make it seem as though I haven't worked very hard with Jack, not just with socialization and training, but also with exposing him to positive experiences as much as possible (and limiting negative ones). **** happens though...I was just doing my usual picnic table thing outside of the building when Casey and his owner came around and Casey attacked him (I found out later he had attacked his brother dog just prior). That dog needs to be muzzled and I don't know what his owner was thinking letting go of his leash.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when there seems to be so many irresponsible dog owners out there...they're everywhere, but I'm learning as I go. Regardless, I continue to try to the right thing by Jack every single day as he is, without a doubt, the best thing in my life, and my best friend. Shame on me though? Easy to say, but I don't think so. I work very hard to keep him the great dog he's always been; people around this building know what a wonderful dog's he has been and marvel at how well trained and responsive he is. It bothers me alot that one bad apple charging my dog and biting him could sabotage all my best efforts.
 

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Bad Wolf
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Its sad that we live near people who are not responsible with their dogs. What happened isn't your fault. Keep Jack near you and keep other dogs away from him that are offleash. Does Jack have any playmates he sees often? Keep up the playdates and he'll hopefully turn around.
 
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Nobody is questioning your love and hard work devotion, for your precious & loving Jack.
- all just trying to help, sometimes a sugar coat reply...is harder to write, second time around though
Uncontrolled Toronto Beaches or any Dog Parks...they can all end the same...sometimes not good IMO.

My early socialization (people/places/noises largely) is not with other dogs BTW, for obviously reasons.
That the pair of you learned the hard way...with all the BEST intentions in the world.
- no puppy classes ever here http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-related-chat/69477-dobermann-aggression-towards-other-dogs.html
- no dog parks either here http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-related-chat/69497-your-dog-good-dog-park-candidate.html
But my dog is very social with strangers dogs now / we just avoid the potential early problem.
- OB off&on leash training (Jack too the advanced level), will now be your best friend
As an adult, our Amy has shown real aggression to a few bad mannered dogs (in the past)....but then she is quickly back to normal (when the situation, is removed)...comes with confidence building, maturity & canine reasoning skills...she has never been bit, cause she has learned how to stick up for herself.
Good Luck You2 !!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
No, Jack doesn't have any regular playmates actually, but has always done well when he is playing (most of the time with females). I wish he did, but I just don't know that many people with dogs. Haven't been back to the dog park since he was about 8 months, though I'll probably return, in a highly supervised manner, when he's neutered.

I think I'm going to get back into some formal training in the fall. It was alot of fun in the past and it would be beneficial going forward.

Thanks, Beaumont.
 

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You guys make it seem as though I haven't worked very hard with Jack, not just with socialization and training, but also with exposing him to positive experiences as much as possible (and limiting negative ones). **** happens though...I was just doing my usual picnic table thing outside of the building when Casey and his owner came around and Casey attacked him (I found out later he had attacked his brother dog just prior). That dog needs to be muzzled and I don't know what his owner was thinking letting go of his leash.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when there seems to be so many irresponsible dog owners out there...they're everywhere, but I'm learning as I go. Regardless, I continue to try to the right thing by Jack every single day as he is, without a doubt, the best thing in my life, and my best friend. Shame on me though? Easy to say, but I don't think so. I work very hard to keep him the great dog he's always been; people around this building know what a wonderful dog's he has been and marvel at how well trained and responsive he is. It bothers me alot that one bad apple charging my dog and biting him could sabotage all my best efforts.
Now I am going to say some things that you might not like. :rolleyesww:
I had told you many, many, times that because you have a male Doberman you have to be EXTRA diligent around other dogs. To assume can/will get your dog hurt. As someone else said you are his protector no one else.

Stop taking chances!! Taking him to the beach and letting him off leash with a dog that he seemed to have a bit of an issue with was well..just plain dumb!! Especially after what had happened to him. Listen to your gut, AND watch for the subtle signs of dog aggression........you are missing them!!

I know Jack is your life and I know you would do anything for him. But he is at an age where male, male aggression is a reality sad as it may be. Personally I think this would have happened whether or not he had the incident with the Aussie.

I think it's time to have him altered anyways, although personally I don't think it's going to make any difference. It just takes that out of the equation.

You remember why one of the reasons I found Bean a home don't you? I didn't want something to happen between them. Be pro active, find places where you can run him by himself or with females. NO MORE MALES!! ;)
 

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No, Jack doesn't have any regular playmates actually, but has always done well when he is playing (most of the time with females). I wish he did, but I just don't know that many people with dogs. Haven't been back to the dog park since he was about 8 months, though I'll probably return, in a highly supervised manner, when he's neutered.

I think I'm going to get back into some formal training in the fall. It was alot of fun in the past and it would be beneficial going forward.

Thanks, Beaumont.
If there is male male aggression going on neutering is not going to help much. IMO, going to the dog park with a male doberman that is starting to show signs is asking for trouble. I remember going to that very dog park and watching a dog attack another dog. There were signs, I watched as I walked away. However the owners were to busy yacking and drinking their coffees. What was really scary was once the dog attacked about 10 others dogs joined in! It was down right ugly and the two original fighters were seriously hurt. Find other places to run him. Why do people feel the need to run their dog with others? Trust me, your dog will be really happy with your company on a long walk. Throw a ball, go swimming, train..etc! He doesn't NEED to be running and playing with others that bad.
 

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Simple answer, yes, being attacked once by another dog can, and often does, change a dog's feelings about other dogs. I know many, many dogs who are now dog reactive/dog aggressive because of one incident. It can take a lot of work to counteract one attack.

You've gotten a lot of good advice about male Dobermans above, so I won't rehash it. I agree that Jack should not be going to dog parks (neutered or not) and you should be highly proactive about controlling his interactions with other dogs. I don't think anyone was suggesting that the first incident was your fault, but letting him interact with the second dog was a mistake. We've all made mistakes, but don't set Jack up for failure again.
 

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My dobe Amy is loose/free range, 100% of the time on my 2 properties.
- off-leash so often, the last 2x she went to the Vets, I could not even find her leash (in 4x4) and just grabbed her collar, to escort her into the building
If she don't know or like you (while friends can freely, come & go), out of the car you can get and 1/2 way to the front porch...your stopped in your tracks / other times a stranger will get to the front door, but is stuck there, till I call her off.

^^^^ So before you ask, what does this story have to do with the price of eggs ??...LOL
If Amy is on a leash beside me & a strange dog appears (eg. street walking) or off-leash and I call her off:
By my side - I take my finger tips and back brush her fur topline with the soft words..."Amy good girl, Dad sees, its OK, good girl"...much praise.
- I calm her down, and the property intruder/visitor has to suck up my girl, before he goes back to the vehicle

As a handler, we can communicate much praise for our dog actions and calm them down quickly...for doing their job.
(without the aggression, towards person or dog...getting out of hand)
- and nothing gets out of control / while the dobes confidence is still intact

That is the problem with a real dog attack...young dogs confidence is shattered...and future control is more unpredictable.
- in confrontational situations with dog by your side / calming techniques utilized through your respected voice & leadership touch, can work wonders...in maintaining the status quo

dobriety - Stay out of dog park/beaches...keep Jack by your side NOW... and take the lead in implementing techniques to calm your boy down.
Helps to restore canine confidence, if handler is in & takes control...for the confrontational situation at hand.
The human is responsible for the moment / and dobe can learn from it and too relax....all about building needed confidence.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Hey guys,

thanks for all the good advice and reminders, I appreciate it. I've always been careful but this attack on the property came as a real surprise. I should have seen it coming though. In fact, there was about a five second interval where I, being the inexperienced dog owner that I am (lots of work with Jack but naive to dogs in many ways), where I literally sat there watching Jack wondering what he had begun staring at ... I couldn't see Casey at this moment, so little did I realize (stupidly) that they were having some sort of stare of. That's when Casey charged from under the picnic table and attacked Jack.

A few of you are mentioning a second attack on Jack...to be clear, Jack has only been attacked once. I may have been unclear about the beach encounter; it was Jack who got his hackles up and Jack who got a little aggressive (snarly mostly and a few posturing snaps but I didn't see any real bite attempts). Maybe I missed something on the part of the Golden Retriever, but I don't think so.

Anyway, just wanted to be clear...Jack has only been attacked the once.

Okie: To be honest, I have been dilligent around other males, and dogs in general. Mike, the owner did have Casey on a leash...I'm not sure at what point the moron let him loose (probably cuz he was resting under the picnic table but even that is moronic, especially in light of the fact he had just had a scuffle with Ozzie, his brother). That dog should really be muzzled, he's a nuisance. Anyway, I'm totally going to keep Jack away from other males now. Do you think I should keep him away from All Males, even if things have always been good when the other dog is particularly passive? The other Aussie, Ozzie, is quite submissive as is another occasional playmate of Jacks, Boston, who is a Black lab/Bernese Mountain dog mix.

Beaumont: I wish I knew a little more about these calming techniques you mentioned when you see your dog posturing...this calming touch, etc. I don't think I'm so good yet at reigning him in yet when he gets all chest-puffy with his attention focused on another dog...that said, it has hardly ever happened since I got Jack but I guess he's getting to that age where I have to be extra vigilant.

Thanks again, guys. I've missed this forum in recent months. Such a great source of information.
 

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Hey guys, .....................Beaumont: I wish I knew a little more about these calming techniques you mentioned when you see your dog posturing...this calming touch, etc. I don't think I'm so good yet at reigning him in yet when he gets all chest-puffy with his attention focused on another dog...that said, it has hardly ever happened since I got Jack but I guess he's getting to that age where I have to be extra vigilant.

Thanks again, guys. I've missed this forum in recent months. Such a great source of information.
I probably use several calming techniques, developed (over the years) via. the style I puppy train, http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/68153-feisty-bugger.html talk in specific pitch or tone to my dobe, my projected body language, my inner calmness, my confidence, etc.

All of which comes largely from a solid foundation and OB off-leash personal training...plus a canine bond, built on trust & respect...even a 100% recall unleashed is essential...handler can't calm the dog, without being in control and the dog honors the relationship and guidance of owner/handler.

A lot of these calming techniques, I take for granted and haven't tried to put pen to paper on them before...try to give you a few.
I believe, I built them up, in stepping stones...her is an cross-over example:
- when my dog is eating and I happen to walk past her, I will back rub her back fur, Amy likes the physical touch of my hand & hearing my voice
- so out on the street, the back rub with my finger tips, sends her a good feeling and she trusts my lead, evaluating a new situation
(but, thats not to say, if the situation warrants, she has free reign to do as she sees fit, and Dad will intervene when and if necessary)
- even walking past Amy resting on the leather love seat, I always run my finger tips over the side of her ear / therefore, on the street...I can rub her ear and talk her into calmness

I also train my dog with hand signals, and voice whispering besides using the conventional commands...that become a proofing exercise.
As they say, "let sleeping dogs lie" - NOT ME.
At night, in bed, I whisper to Amy and tell her stories for 5 minutes with a belly rub, every night...and I can relax her into sleepy time easily.
She often awakes before me, but if i'm up first, I will give her a love pat on he rump and say, "wake up lazy girl" (LOL).
If tested we have a bond that suggests - I will protect her and she will protect me / a buddy system, each watching out, for the other.
- so a zone of calmness, can be achieved...if desired
 

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Dobriety - Sorry to hear that your dog was attacked. I was having the same issue with my unneutured boy. He was mostly attacked by small dogs.. they would jump fences to get at him. I had to learn to walk where there were no dogs in my neighborhood.

My boy was just neutured so I hope this all changes for him. I will let you know if there is a difference.
 

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So sorry to hear that Jack was attacked. Kyrah is a female who doesnt care to play with other dogs. I socialized her well...we went to the park on a regular basis and she did fine until she started maturing. Thankfully no fights. It is very hard to learn keeping your dog away from others. You want them to have friends. :( Kyrah's only friends are her pack here at home.

I dont think anyone meant to say you werent doing your best with Jack just that you have to be more...I dont know how to say it but know exactly what it is. I went thru it with Kyrah. You kinda want to see if things are going to be ok but then a small reaction happens...kinda like what happened at the beach for you. Those situations should be avoided always! If you get that feeling walk away.

I dont think you have to have your dog away from dogs unless your dog or the other will charge. At agility when we are doing things on the field other dogs are running around playing Kyrah stays by me. If another dog comes I will walk in front of Kyrah and block the other dog which then the owner will say their name to get them away or the such. FINALLY! the people at the club are learning this is how Kyrah is. She is not aggressive but she really just doesnt want any dog in her face. If we are on leash working and someone elses dog gets to the end of the leash to greet Kyrah I walk in front of her. She occasionallly shows her teeth to a dog that persistently trys to greet. No growling just showing those pearly whites pretty quickly. Is it hard somewhat...b/c the other owners may be watching somewhat...but I am watching constantly in all directions. If I am getting worn down I put her in the truck or her kennel if its there. Dexter, my grandpup has just moved home with my daughter which by chance is Kyrah's bestest friend in the world! So now Kyrah has a playmate that she loves and he loves her! Think I am going to steal him if my daughter tries to move out again even tho I said no more terriers! hehe
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I probably use several calming techniques, developed (over the years) via. the style I puppy train, http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/68153-feisty-bugger.html talk in specific pitch or tone to my dobe, my projected body language, my inner calmness, my confidence, etc.

All of which comes largely from a solid foundation and OB off-leash personal training...plus a canine bond, built on trust & respect...even a 100% recall unleashed is essential...handler can't calm the dog, without being in control and the dog honors the relationship and guidance of owner/handler.

A lot of these calming techniques, I take for granted and haven't tried to put pen to paper on them before...try to give you a few.
I believe, I built them up, in stepping stones...her is an cross-over example:
- when my dog is eating and I happen to walk past her, I will back rub her back fur, Amy likes the physical touch of my hand & hearing my voice
- so out on the street, the back rub with my finger tips, sends her a good feeling and she trusts my lead, evaluating a new situation
(but, thats not to say, if the situation warrants, she has free reign to do as she sees fit, and Dad will intervene when and if necessary)
- even walking past Amy resting on the leather love seat, I always run my finger tips over the side of her ear / therefore, on the street...I can rub her ear and talk her into calmness

I also train my dog with hand signals, and voice whispering besides using the conventional commands...that become a proofing exercise.
As they say, "let sleeping dogs lie" - NOT ME.
At night, in bed, I whisper to Amy and tell her stories for 5 minutes with a belly rub, every night...and I can relax her into sleepy time easily.
She often awakes before me, but if i'm up first, I will give her a love pat on he rump and say, "wake up lazy girl" (LOL).
If tested we have a bond that suggests - I will protect her and she will protect me / a buddy system, each watching out, for the other.
- so a zone of calmness, can be achieved...if desired
Great post, thanks, Beaumont. I like the touching thing you do at home, that enables you to do that out on a walk, and have a the same calming effect.

Dobbie23 said:
My boy was just neutured so I hope this all changes for him.
Hey Dobbie...how was have things been since you neutered your boy? How old is he again?

herb2relax said:
I dont think anyone meant to say you werent doing your best with Jack just that you have to be more...I dont know how to say it but know exactly what it is. I went thru it with Kyrah. You kinda want to see if things are going to be ok but then a small reaction happens...kinda like what happened at the beach for you. Those situations should be avoided always! If you get that feeling walk away.
yeah, lol, I definitely wont ignore that gut feeling again; that said, I hope I'm not always this paranoid, cuz I've always been quite confident with Jack outside with other dogs in sight (though he's often trailing the 25 foot leash at those times, while we play ball).
 
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