[ticktock]

Breeder wants male puppy shown to championship, we pay only entry fees, they will transport, handle, pay health testing etc... They get to collect his semen and freeze it.

We arent really interested in showing but the problem is, this is the male puppy in the litter that we love. The puppy is $2k. Just wondering how much in the long run the puppy will actually cost once we add on entry fees over time, since I doubt we'd ever get any money from stud fees as we arent interested in doing that.

Would this even be a good arrangement for someone that did want to show? Thanks for any input on this, having a tough time since I dont know anything about showing.

 

[sam&macksmom]

If it's not the arrangement you want, then wait.

 

[Sam1491]

To me, if all you have to pay is entry fees and house him as yours and she will show the dog herself it sounds like the normal and good deal. She gets to use him and prove him, but you get to love on him. Also that price doesn't sound off base fora show quality pup.
The big question is do you want to make the co-own commitment to have him gone weekends for shows and eventually breeding, keeping him in show shape, etc...or just wait and find another boy that is pet and outright yours with no expectations

 

[brw1982]

$2,000 is not a high price for a show pup.

But if you don't want a show pup, don't get one. It's a big commitment. Lots of time, money, and a little extra grooming/maintenance goes into owning show dog. Not a big deal for some people but it might be pretty irritating for someone who didn't want a show dog to begin with.

Also, if you're not interested in breeding, be careful about what contract you sign. Know what the details are so you fully understand what expectations are being placed on you as co-owner.

I'd say if you're not 100% behind owning a show dog and committing to finishing him, don't do it.

 

[ShelianDobe]

Also, keep in mind that you will not be able to neuter him, assuming he meets the breeders expectations and does have a show/breeding career. I wouldn't have an issue with this arrangement at all, however, keeping an intact male can or does have its disadvantages.

Not everybody wants or is equipped to manage an intact male. Do whatever makes you the most comfortable.

 

[KCFilley]

Who is the breeder? Are they relatively close to you that it won't be an issue getting the dog to them to transport to shows? Is there a time limit on showing? For instance what if it takes three or four years to finish the dog. Are you ok with him staying in tact for that period of time? Is the arrangement that they will collect and pay for the collection within a given period of time after his championship is completed? That way if he finishes and you don't want to keep him in tact for another two or three years, is that worked out? What happens in case of a disagreement?

 

[Adara]

Do you have any say in breeding? What tests must a bitch need to be bred to him? What about pedigree, etc.? I'm involved in conformation so that aspect wouldn't bother ME, but it is a lot of work. The breeding part would need more clarification for me personally. I'm a control freak about that and need to know I'd have a veto in breeding to a bitch if need be and would only agree to a mutual decision on breeding.

It also sounds to me that the breeder would get the stud fees if they are paying for show ch and to collect him, etc.

 

[ticktock]

thanks so much for everyones replies!

can you please explain the disadvantages, temperment wise, of having an intact male, that may affect our decision.

The breeder is very close by. I'll have to put in a time limit on showing, that wasnt discussed. Nothing about when they collect him either, couldnt they do that at any point, even while he is still showing?

I'm not sure if I have a say in breeding, although I dont know anything about that. They seem to be very good about health testing etc. They would be able to collect him, nothing has been said about the stud fees but i do assume i wouldnt be getting any.

 

[sam&macksmom]

Here are some threads on co-ownership that might help you sort through some of the stuff you're not familiar with. There are additional threads linked in this one http://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/52678-co-owning.html

 

[dobebug]

thanks so much for everyones replies!

can you please explain the disadvantages, temperment wise, of having an intact male, that may affect our decision.

The breeder is very close by. I'll have to put in a time limit on showing, that wasnt discussed. Nothing about when they collect him either, couldnt they do that at any point, even while he is still showing?

I'm not sure if I have a say in breeding, although I dont know anything about that. They seem to be very good about health testing etc. They would be able to collect him, nothing has been said about the stud fees but i do assume i wouldnt be getting any.

2K is about the average for a show prospect. Bear in mind that entry fees are running between $25 to $30 per show entry. Over time that can run into unexpected $'s if you don't start out knowing that. But considering what handling fees and the cost of health testing are these days it's probably a good deal as far as that goes.

Collection and maintenance fees are also expensive so you do need to address that--and most breeders wouldn't want to collect a dog until it finished and was fully mature since there is a lot that can go awry between puppyhood and maturity.

I keep males and have always kept males and most of them stay intact their entire lives. I don't breed so nearly all of my males have an agreement that the breeder owns the stud rights and makes all the decisions about using the dog for breeding. There really aren't a whole lot of breeders that I would trust to make those decisions--but it is where I get my puppies from...from breeders who I do trust.

I don't see much difference between my intact males and the few that I've neutered at fairly young ages but handling an intact male is sometime much more than someone without experience would want to deal with. Frankly I've seen no perceptable change in basic temperament. The biggest difference that I see is when it comes to companion/performance stuff (which I do with all my finished champions) when you find that intact males are definitely more of a challenge when their minds are often on other things (bitches--in or out of season) when you are working or trying to compete with a dog when you really want their entire attention.

It can be done--it's just a bigger challenge.

 

[triciakoontz]

I would also want to make sure that this breeder is a reputable quality breeder and not someone who just wants to sell a puppy for $2K who is not worth that much (the show hype could possibly be used to "add value" to the price of the pup when it is not, in fact, show quality at all). Have you made sure the breeder has shown his/her dogs to championships, etc.? Conversely, if this is a big-time show breeder who is gone with dogs to shows all the time you may be giving up your dog more than you can predict as they take him on the circuits. It is not something I would ever want to do because I don't want the hassle of keeping an intact male. I would definitely wait for another puppy rather than taking on this type of agreement but that is just me. There are some really good litters being produced where you would not have to have any of this hassle, especially getting a male.

 

[ShelianDobe]

can you please explain the disadvantages, temperment wise, of having an intact male, that may affect our decision.

I agree with Dobebug, there really is not a difference in temperament. Intact males still make loving companions. They are just a little more difficult to manage. In my experience they are easily distracted, want to check everything out and god forbid you have a neighbor with an intact female that comes in heat.

My feeling is that if the whole show/breeding thing is not 'your' thing, you might want to pass on this pup and find one that you can have as a pet, no strings attached.

Whatever you decide, do keep us posted and we need photos.

 

[Murreydobe]

thanks so much for everyones replies!

can you please explain the disadvantages, temperment wise, of having an intact male, that may affect our decision.

The breeder is very close by. I'll have to put in a time limit on showing, that wasnt discussed. Nothing about when they collect him either, couldnt they do that at any point, even while he is still showing?

I'm not sure if I have a say in breeding, although I dont know anything about that. They seem to be very good about health testing etc. They would be able to collect him, nothing has been said about the stud fees but i do assume i wouldnt be getting any.

I don't think the issue is as much keeping an intact male as it is keeping an intact male who's been used for breeding, and that includes having semen collected.

There *is* a difference. LOL, their world changes, and so does yours. You've got a male who's a LOT more interested in the girlies around him. This can make handling the dog around bitches in season far more of a chore. They're "sniffier"-best word I can use to explain it.

I doubt you're going to be in a position to put a time limit onto how long the dog is available to show, that would be up to the breeder/co owner. And there is indeed work involved in keeping the dog in show condition, keeping nails maintained, etc.

I had a similiar kind of agreement when I bought the male I have now-that the breeder would be allowed to collect the dog. We have a good working relationship, so I do allow her to use him for natural breedings with her own bitches. And she shows me the courtesy of including me in the decision making process about outside bitches being accepted. But I wouldn't count on that with just any breeder-they're paying for everything but entry fees to show the dog, they're paying for health testing-all breeding decisions would be theirs in most situations.

If you don't know what's involved in showing dogs, and don't specifically want a show dog, I'd keep looking. There's always another litter, always another puppy coming along.

 

[RedFawnRising]

If you don't know what all is entailed in such an agreement, it is going to be hard to assess whether it's something you want to live with or not, right?

Personally, I'd pass.

I want to do sports with my dogs that are my interests, and those of my dogs', not the hobbies/pursuits of somebody else.

 

[bubsy]

You say that this is the male puppy in the litter that you love, are there other pet puppies available in the litter? As long as the breeder is good at matching puppies with the right owners, you will do well letting the breeder pick out the right pet puppy for you. I wouldn't get too hung up on wanting *this* particular puppy in the litter.

 

[Murreydobe]

You say that this is the male puppy in the litter that you love, are there other pet puppies available in the litter? As long as the breeder is good at matching puppies with the right owners, you will do well letting the breeder pick out the right pet puppy for you. I wouldn't get too hung up on wanting *this* particular puppy in the litter.

To be honest, nine times out of ten the breeder could provide this kind of puppy buyer with another puppy of the same color/gender and say it's the puppy "the buyer loved", and the buyer would never know the difference.