In today's show world, How well does 24" female show against a 25 -26" female, 12 to 18 months?

I searched "fullheight". I found one post. I am familiar with the plus and minus of my bloodlines., except for foxfire. I know the foxfire Champs back about 35 years, and a large portion of their pedigrees, but nothing else, except for the Nello health problems.

I know Foxfire bred into
the SA lines, and to me it had influence on the overall line's look. But how do I find out the line's recent height maturity? I am well familiar with my other 2 major lines, as they are linebred on lex, primarily Cactus Cash. Which they mostly finish right out of the puppy class, and special by 2. My breeder's stumped as to why she is short. Is there any food or ideas about activity, or late bloomer tales aout there? I fed her Royal Canin, then at 7 months switched her to p. pro plan. Maybe that was the wrong thing to do.

I had an almost post on the first thread--the one that got deleted--but since you are asking a kind of different question and I do have some experience with both the now Foxfire line and the older part of the line.

My first half Foxfire Dobe was sired by Ch Foxfire's Devils and Demons--my male out of that litter (and his dam's breeding was really predominately Canadian) is the dog who went to the National and won the Futurity 6-9 black class--around 30 puppies as I recall) and went on to win the regular 6-9 black male class which was even bigger.--in that class he was bigger than about 2/3's of the males. By the time he was in 9-12 classes he was generallly one of the smaller males. When he went into the 12-18 class he was about 26-1/2" and definitely the smallest dog in the class but between the time he started showing at that age and he time he moved on to American Bred he had caught up and was 27-1/2" which was his final height. Am Can Ch Seattle Freezing Rain Am Can CD ROM I think he had a CGC too. He's in Dobequest so you can check his pedigree

I've certainly seen dogs and bitches out of many different lines not hit their final height until they were between 12 nd 18 monthsl.

My second Foxfire Dobe was Am Can Ch Foxfire's Shoot the Moon RA CD etc ROM--He was 28-1/2" and had most of his height (28-1/2") by the time he was a year--but he took another year to fill out. He's also in Dobequest and you'll recognize a lot of what is behind his Foxfire side--this is basically a line that while Michelle was reasonably successful with them they were slow to mature and essentially she abandoned the line. I don't know why I didn't put in why he was euthanized--but I didn't--we think he blew out a disc--while I was at a show--came home to find him down (I thought dead initially) he raised his head--and that was all he could move. The emergency vet who did the euthanasia thought it was probably a disc that ruptured the spinal cord when it collapsed.

My third Foxfire Dobe was Ch Foxfires Ain't That the Truth BN CD GN RE OA AXJ NF CGC ROM--and that when Michelle bred several of her bitches to Ch Cambria's Highly Regarded BFL1--this is where she ended up with Cryptonite and Cactus Cash in her lines--and that changed the look more, I think, than the subsequent addition of the SA lines. Rumor was a relatively small dog--might have been 27 " if you stretched him but he was very correct and had no trouble finishing--and he was his full size by the time he was just over a year and looked mature. And he's in Dobequest

The other big addition for Michelle's breeding--I think, was when she bred to Ch Eastwick's Meadow Monster--more Cryptonite and Cactus Cash--my dog was Ch Foxfire's Gold Toed Monster BN CD RE OA AXJ NF CGA ROM BFL1 LC14D--my fawn dog. He is in Dobequest. He was 28-1/2" and the picture in Dobequest is from a win when he was just about 18 months.

Michelle bred one of her Highly Regarded Daughters to Inaqui de Black Shadow (a Lex Luther son) and it gave her a lot of what she'd been looking for--faster maturity and a look that was very identifiable.

You'll have to tell me about the Nello problems--evidently I missed something along the line.

That's a fast recap but you can look at pedigrees for those dogs and their sisters and see a lot of what Foxfire was doing through those years.

I wouldn't write your bitch off as full grown by any means--sometimes there is a fairly big growth spurt at over a year. All you can do is wait and see if you get it.

24" bitches are certainly finishable but if there is a lot of competition in 25 and 26 " bitches she might get lost in the shuffel--did you breed her? If you did you could show her in Bred By--I know a few Dobes who were on the small side and finished that way--judges assumed they were looking a very nice puppy and didn't care about the size.

Anyway--good luck and I guess you'll find out by showing her...

dobebug

OldSchool said:

Me too !!!!! 100% there with you!
Also, Cash has a tendency for throwing rear leg long to hocks though, I think too. So with less body, I think they would be high in the rear, otherwise, what do you think? Yes! Erratically! So in my book that is not a refined line. Learned the hard way. Smart, good tempered dogs though, too many with very short lifes, wobbles, DCM, and vWD. But he was firm, he doesn't test. Hmmm?

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I think that it's the second thigh (from stifle to hock) that tends to be long--and with not quite enough angle in the stifle joint itself and you can trace that all the way back to Windwalker--down through Beaulane the Nite Rider to Brunswig's Crytonite--and through him to Cactus Cash. Cyptonite had and threw rear ends that I really didn't like--his rear looked weak--wispy--unmuscled and that showed up all the time in lines heavy in Cyptonite. But he got bred to a lot because he also threw beautiful front ends and head in a period of time when heads were really not so pretty good.

Electra dogs? Mmmm--somewhere along the line I think Judy took a wrong turn and I've seen more recent dogs that look like parodies of Electra dogs.

I count longevity in lines as very favorible item--I said many times that although I've had DCM in my dogs more often than not--with two notable exceptions it wasn't what actually killed them. I think I'd take the major league cardio issues in the breed over the cancer factory breeds like Goldens and for that matter Boxers who are another cardio breed--not the same kind as Dobes but cardio non-the less.

I have to go mow the front lawn--it took a new lease on life when it finally warmed up and it's now getting out of hand.

dobebug

🔍

dobebug said:

,

Electra dogs? Mmmm--somewhere along the line I think Judy took a wrong turn and I've seen more recent dogs that look like parodies of Electra dogs.

I count longevity in lines as very favorible item--I said many times that although I've had DCM in my dogs more often than not--with two notable exceptions it wasn't what actually killed them. I think I'd take the major league cardio issues in the breed over the cancer factory breeds like Goldens and for that matter Boxers who are another cardio breed--not the same kind as Dobes but cardio non-the less.

I have to go mow the front lawn--it took a new lease on life when it finally warmed up and it's now getting out

dobebug

Click to expand...

DB, hope you have a Rider to do the lawn. It's hot here!

And woo, look at you girl, talkin' smack. Lol! You and Judy both have beautiful Champions! ( Don't curl your lip)

About Wind Walker:
Just a thought,
Isn't that giving Windwalker an amazing amount of credit for his dna, when Windwalker only contributed 3%, well 3.3% to Cactus Cash's gene pool? (I did the math)
And whosits really can't, but does, take credit for genius breeding on Cryptonite lineage, even though Cryptonite was the last resort and just about as close as 3% could get anyone to Windwalker. Windwalker was the coveted secret weapon to try to clean up the slop in Cambria Shoulders. Whats -his -name ( nudgenudge--that's a joke, we are about the same age,you probably remember the name, or is whosits' name a well intended blur for everyone these days, like it was for me?)
Anyway, as recommended to him by a tip top breeder, whosits wanted to breed Nicona to Windwalker, very badly, to clean up those poor tsk tsk Cambria Shoulders, but Electra didn't like the bitch, thought the dog and the line was trash and turned whosits down flat. Whosits laughed, thought it was a joke, but it wasn't. (Pretty funny to me)
So Whosits had to settle for Cryptonite, the closest "it" could get to Wind Walker, (3%). I concur, he was a bad dog, not my taste. There is too(2) much body in Cash, short front legs and a hoard of folk fell for it, bred to Eddie, all for a light bulb chest. The new look , A Producer of Champions, go figure.

OldSchool said:

🔍 DB, hope you have a Rider to do the lawn. It's hot here!

And woo, look at you girl, talkin' smack. Lol! You and Judy both have beautiful Champions! ( Don't curl your lip)

About Wind Walker:
Just a thought,
Isn't that giving Windwalker an amazing amount of credit for his dna, when Windwalker only contributed 3%, well 3.3% to Cactus Cash's gene pool? (I did the math)
And whosits really can't, but does, take credit for genius breeding on Cryptonite lineage, even though Cryptonite was the last resort and just about as close as 3% could get anyone to Windwalker. Windwalker was the coveted secret weapon to try to clean up the slop in Cambria Shoulders. Whats -his -name ( nudgenudge--that's a joke, we are about the same age,you probably remember the name, or is whosits' name a well intended blur for everyone these days, like it was for me?)
Anyway, as recommended to him by a tip top breeder, whosits wanted to breed Nicona to Windwalker, very badly, to clean up those poor tsk tsk Cambria Shoulders, but Electra didn't like the bitch, thought the dog and the line was trash and turned whosits down flat. Whosits laughed, thought it was a joke, but it wasn't. (Pretty funny to me)
So Whosits had to settle for Cryptonite, the closest "it" could get to Wind Walker, (3%). I concur, he was a bad dog, not my taste. There is too(2) much body in Cash, short front legs and a hoard of folk fell for it, bred to Eddie, all for a light bulb chest. The new look , A Producer of Champions, go figure.

Click to expand...

I think I'm rather older than you--and when I got my first Doberman and started showing him there was no Cambria--for that matter there was no Electra. Jim White was a pet Doberman owner that I only knew (sort of) because he had met the breeder of my first dog (Jim Bennet) and was picking his brain for everything Doberman. And I was gone from the Seattle area by the time he had Nicona V Texas and I have no idea how long he'd been out of Washington state--because I had been in California by that time since 1963. Some while back I went looking to see where Cambria started (and at about the same time I also looked at were Electra started). And both of them remain kind of a mystery to me.

Judy's mystery is bigger than Jim White's--there is Electra as the kennel name for some dogs who look like they might go back to some dogs owned by people in or around Portland, Oregon. And it looks like they all belonged to and were bred by someone whose name wasn't Judy Bingham. And then suddenly in the mid 70's one of Tommy Jone's Kai Esa bitches produced an Electra dog--Confederate. ? I never did figure this one out and I didn't know enough people to track it back. Ditto for Jim and Cambia (but I do know a little more about him).

As far as names go--? I probably know nothing about any of the decisions that Judy Bingham made about who she allowed to breed to Morgan--but just looking at the list of dogs that he sired--they are for the most part either major breeders of the day or owned prime bitches bred by the major breeders of the day. No harm in picking or choosing who to breed a dog too--and Judy has always had opinions and wasn't afraid at all to excercise her control over some thing relating to dogs. And she really was never know as a go along get along good sport type.

But it doesn't make a whole lot of difference--here's a thing--you can cite a lot figures about how big a percentage of a given dog or bitch contributes to their offsping and all that follows after them. And sometimes that calculated percentage doesn't at all account for the ability of a stud or brood bitch to produce excellence. Geneticist have volumes on why this happens and how this happens--but the fact is that it does happen. It also happens on the contra side as well--and there are dogs (and horses) who seem to only produce all of the stuff you never wanted to see---but do so faithfully no matter who they are bred to.

She's bred some nice dogs and she's bred (more recently) some dogs I can't say a lot for--and it's harder to get more information these days on what she's breeding and if she's even willing to sell to the average Joe Blow. I don't know--I really don't know Judy--I probably know more about her dogs than I do about their breeder.

Ditto for Jim White and Cambria--he breeds a lot, his second wife is an excellent handler--he does sell decent looking dogs as show prospects. He doesn't just breed to his own dogs--he does go out looking for things he doesn't have and should have. But practically all of the better breeders do that.

All interesting stuff--it's what makes up show dogs (those in the conformation rings) but it's almost equally true of performance dogs. I'm particularly fond of breeders who are producing dogs balanced enought to be and do both.

I see I'm going to mowing that lawn tomorrow--LOL--if you saw the size of either my front or back yards you'd know why I only have mowers that you push--I did actually graduate from reel type to electric power--that's a big plus. but my long time vehicle insurance carrier has priced themselve out of the insurance market so I spent most of the day talking to agents to see who will offer the same or better coverage for less money--I do believe I actually have found one.

Happy Monday to everyone...

dobebug

dobebug said:

I think I'm rather older than you--and when I got my first Doberman and started showing him there was no Cambria--for that matter there was no Electra. Jim White was a pet Doberman owner that I only knew (sort of) because he had met the breeder of my first dog (Jim Bennet) and was picking his brain for everything Doberman. And I was gone from the Seattle area by the time he had Nicona V Texas and I have no idea how long he'd been out of Washington state--because I had been in California by that time since 1963. Some while back I went looking to see where Cambria started (and at about the same time I also looked at were Electra started). And both of them remain kind of a mystery to me.

Judy's mystery is bigger than Jim White's--there is Electra as the kennel name for some dogs who look like they might go back to some dogs owned by people in or around Portland, Oregon. And it looks like they all belonged to and were bred by someone whose name wasn't Judy Bingham. And then suddenly in the mid 70's one of Tommy Jone's Kai Esa bitches produced an Electra dog--Confederate. ? I never did figure this one out and I didn't know enough people to track it back. Ditto for Jim and Cambia (but I do know a little more about him).

As far as names go--? I probably know nothing about any of the decisions that Judy Bingham made about who she allowed to breed to Morgan--but just looking at the list of dogs that he sired--they are for the most part either major breeders of the day or owned prime bitches bred by the major breeders of the day. No harm in picking or choosing who to breed a dog too--and Judy has always had opinions and wasn't afraid at all to excercise her control over some thing relating to dogs. And she really was never know as a go along get along good sport type.

But it doesn't make a whole lot of difference--here's a thing--you can cite a lot figures about how big a percentage of a given dog or bitch contributes to their offsping and all that follows after them. And sometimes that calculated percentage doesn't at all account for the ability of a stud or brood bitch to produce excellence. Geneticist have volumes on why this happens and how this happens--but the fact is that it does happen. It also happens on the contra side as well--and there are dogs (and horses) who seem to only produce all of the stuff you never wanted to see---but do so faithfully no matter who they are bred to.

She's bred some nice dogs and she's bred (more recently) some dogs I can't say a lot for--and it's harder to get more information these days on what she's breeding and if she's even willing to sell to the average Joe Blow. I don't know--I really don't know Judy--I probably know more about her dogs than I do about their breeder.

Ditto for Jim White and Cambria--he breeds a lot, his second wife is an excellent handler--he does sell decent looking dogs as show prospects. He doesn't just breed to his own dogs--he does go out looking for things he doesn't have and should have. But practically all of the better breeders do that.

All interesting stuff--it's what makes up show dogs (those in the conformation rings) but it's almost equally true of performance dogs. I'm particularly fond of breeders who are producing dogs balanced enought to be and do both.

I see I'm going to mowing that lawn tomorrow--LOL--if you saw the size of either my front or back yards you'd know why I only have mowers that you push--I did actually graduate from reel type to electric power--that's a big plus. but my long time vehicle insurance carrier has priced themselve out of the insurance market so I spent most of the day talking to agents to see who will offer the same or better coverage for less money--I do believe I actually have found one.

Happy Monday to

Click to expand...

dobebug said:

I think I'm rather older than you--and when I got my first Doberman and started showing him there was no Cambria--for that matter there was no Electra. Jim White was a pet Doberman owner that I only knew (sort of) because he had met the breeder of my first dog (Jim Bennet) and was picking his brain for everything Doberman. And I was gone from the Seattle area by the time he had Nicona V Texas and I have no idea how long he'd been out of Washington state--because I had been in California by that time since 1963. Some while back I went looking to see where Cambria started (and at about the same time I also looked at were Electra started). And both of them remain kind of a mystery to me.

Judy's mystery is bigger than Jim White's--there is Electra as the kennel name for some dogs who look like they might go back to some dogs owned by people in or around Portland, Oregon. And it looks like they all belonged to and were bred by someone whose name wasn't Judy Bingham. And then suddenly in the mid 70's one of Tommy Jone's Kai Esa bitches produced an Electra dog--Confederate. ? I never did figure this one out and I didn't know enough people to track it back. Ditto for Jim and Cambia (but I do know a little more about him).

As far as names go--? I probably know nothing about any of the decisions that Judy Bingham made about who she allowed to breed to Morgan--but just looking at the list of dogs that he sired--they are for the most part either major breeders of the day or owned prime bitches bred by the major breeders of the day. No harm in picking or choosing who to breed a dog too--and Judy has always had opinions and wasn't afraid at all to excercise her control over some thing relating to dogs. And she really was never know as a go along get along good sport type.

But it doesn't make a whole lot of difference--here's a thing--you can cite a lot figures about how big a percentage of a given dog or bitch contributes to their offsping and all that follows after them. And sometimes that calculated percentage doesn't at all account for the ability of a stud or brood bitch to produce excellence. Geneticist have volumes on why this happens and how this happens--but the fact is that it does happen. It also happens on the contra side as well--and there are dogs (and horses) who seem to only produce all of the stuff you never wanted to see---but do so faithfully no matter who they are bred to.

She's bred some nice dogs and she's bred (more recently) some dogs I can't say a lot for--and it's harder to get more information these days on what she's breeding and if she's even willing to sell to the average Joe Blow. I don't know--I really don't know Judy--I probably know more about her dogs than I do about their breeder.

Ditto for Jim White and Cambria--he breeds a lot, his second wife is an excellent handler--he does sell decent looking dogs as show prospects. He doesn't just breed to his own dogs--he does go out looking for things he doesn't have and should have. But practically all of the better breeders do that.

All interesting stuff--it's what makes up show dogs (those in the conformation rings) but it's almost equally true of performance dogs. I'm particularly fond of breeders who are producing dogs balanced enought to be and do both.

I see I'm going to mowing that lawn tomorrow--LOL--if you saw the size of either my front or back yards you'd know why I only have mowers that you push--I did actually graduate from reel type to electric power--that's a big plus. but my long time vehicle insurance carrier has priced themselve out of the insurance market so I spent most of the day talking to agents to see who will offer the same or better coverage for less money--I do believe I actually have found one

Click to expand...

dobebug said:

I think I'm rather older than you--and when I got my first Doberman and started showing him there was no Cambria--for that matter there was no Electra. Jim White was a pet Doberman owner that I only knew (sort of) because he had met the breeder of my first dog (Jim Bennet) and was picking his brain for everything Doberman. And I was gone from the Seattle area by the time he had Nicona V Texas and I have no idea how long he'd been out of Washington state--because I had been in California by that time since 1963. Some while back I went looking to see where Cambria started (and at about the same time I also looked at were Electra started). And both of them remain kind of a mystery to me.

Judy's mystery is bigger than Jim White's--there is Electra as the kennel name for some dogs who look like they might go back to some dogs owned by people in or around Portland, Oregon. And it looks like they all belonged to and were bred by someone whose name wasn't Judy Bingham. And then suddenly in the mid 70's one of Tommy Jone's Kai Esa bitches produced an Electra dog--Confederate. ? I never did figure this one out and I didn't know enough people to track it back. Ditto for Jim and Cambia (but I do know a little more about him).

As far as names go--? I probably know nothing about any of the decisions that Judy Bingham made about who she allowed to breed to Morgan--but just looking at the list of dogs that he sired--they are for the most part either major breeders of the day or owned prime bitches bred by the major breeders of the day. No harm in picking or choosing who to breed a dog too--and Judy has always had opinions and wasn't afraid at all to excercise her control over some thing relating to dogs. And she really was never know as a go along get along good sport type.

But it doesn't make a whole lot of difference--here's a thing--you can cite a lot figures about how big a percentage of a given dog or bitch contributes to their offsping and all that follows after them. And sometimes that calculated percentage doesn't at all account for the ability of a stud or brood bitch to produce excellence. Geneticist have volumes on why this happens and how this happens--but the fact is that it does happen. It also happens on the contra side as well--and there are dogs (and horses) who seem to only produce all of the stuff you never wanted to see---but do so faithfully no matter who they are bred to.

She's bred some nice dogs and she's bred (more recently) some dogs I can't say a lot for--and it's harder to get more information these days on what she's breeding and if she's even willing to sell to the average Joe Blow. I don't know--I really don't know Judy--I probably know more about her dogs than I do about their breeder.

Ditto for Jim White and Cambria--he breeds a lot, his second wife is an excellent handler--he does sell decent looking dogs as show prospects. He doesn't just breed to his own dogs--he does go out looking for things he doesn't have and should have. But practically all of the better breeders do that.

All interesting stuff--it's what makes up show dogs (those in the conformation rings) but it's almost equally true of performance dogs. I'm particularly fond of breeders who are producing dogs balanced enought to be and do both.

I see I'm going to mowing that lawn tomorrow--LOL--if you saw the size of either my front or back yards you'd know why I only have mowers that you push--I did actually graduate from reel type to electric power--that's a big plus. but my long time vehicle insurance carrier has priced themselve out of the insurance market so I spent most of the day talking to agents to see who will offer the same or better coverage for less money--I do believe I actually have found one.

Happy Monday to everyone...

dobebug

Click to expand...

I never mow.

GP Person said:

Forgive me for piping up. While I've never bred dogs, I did breed Morgan horses for some years. There was a Morgan stallion named Upwey Ben Don who was that kind of prepotent. He was before my time, but my horses went back to him.

An older trainer who had worked with and known Ben Don once told me, "You could breed Ben Don to a donkey, and get something worth having. But when you bred one of those half-donkeys...."

That always stuck with me, particularly because in horses, like in dogs, I absolutely believe most breeders put far too much emphasis on the Ben Don part of a breeding and far too little on the donkey side.

Click to expand...

In CA, in '63, me too! But I was a looky loo in '72, with my first Doberman, sired by a Ch. no one knows, or remembers. Bought him, and have been sold on Dobes ever since! His sire was #1 one in the top twenty. He came, flashed and gone forever, lol. Ch. Hill's Beethoven. I bought every book, had every DQ magazine and DQ book, and fell in love for ever! I am a retired Art Diector. My Dobe went every where with me! To work, home to the bank. And like an idiot in my twenties, I had him off leash, heeling and CD ing everywhere. Even down town in the heart of the garment district and, and down town at the Brack Shops and Jewelry Martl, even at the LA buyer gift shows. No one stopped me, and probably should have. He was a flawless constant companion. And I was foolish. He lived to a ripe old age of 14. Straight in the front, withĺ a scant chest just touching top of the elbow, and a Light eye, he was perfect! Lol. I was a little twit, and now I'm an old one. However I do know what floats my boat dobermanwise.