Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

21 - 34 of 34 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,045 Posts
If she decides she doesn't care what you want and her determination is focused only on her desires is hard headedness.

Excellent definition Kasadobe !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
Hmm, not sure why the links aren't working for you. Everything I posted opens for me, and nothing was a pubmed link...? If you are on a laptop or desktop you should be able to hover your mouse over the highlighted name of what the link name is and it will show the actual URL of the link. The new forum software automatically formats these now into clickable links instead of typing out the URL.
I mean the links inside the links, those attached to the first article you posted, the ones you published here work perfect.(y)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
I am sure you are referring to Rene? I do not knw these other people, but see them on working-dog.com,

Juan Fernández Sánchez, http://www.workingdobermanns.com.mx, [email protected]

Eduardo Cardoso, [email protected]

Americo Trevino, [email protected]
Yes Rene Benavides.... thank you very much! I talked to Juan Fernandez a while ago and he was not breeding by the time, I don't know if he's still breeding. I've heard about Americo Treviño but do not know him or the other guy, but I'm going to check and do my research. However I think I will stick to Americans and try to select the dog with the best temperament that suits me and try to direct him/her towards a working mentality, actually that's why I open the thread, to know how you people think of these thoughts I have. So yeah, I'll try bite sports and if it doesn't work we'll try another hard work SAR or sport mantrailing/tracking maybe. Just my plans.

Thank you Kansa
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,101 Posts
Non-working Dobermann lines in general and even some working lines, lack nerves and biddability. But how much of these characteristics are modifiable or redirected by the owner/handler in order to improve the dog's ability to work? For example, I've heard SAR trainers to say that if you make your dog work and make an effort to get whatever she wants (food for example) from the moment she is separated from the mother, you will have a dog with more willingness to work and please (so she can get the reward), like make the dog used to work for it's food. Other interesting things I've heard is that, besides the socialization and get them used to sounds, people, different surfaces, etc... rough play contributes in shaping and improving the nerves, so when you play rough the dog becomes a little harder. But up to what point? Could a regular Doberman puppy with an expected steady temperament, regular level of prey drive (not super intense), moderate protection instinct, low to moderately sharp and a good trainer, build such a good nerves and work ethics to perform at least decently
in a biting sport (or other work that puts pressure on the dog) if raised this way?
I don't come on here very often, and looked back at that thread which is one I participated on 7 years ago. One cannot really change the nerve of the dog. However in case of nerves many dogs can be desensitized to pressure, threats, perceived environmental threats, etc. A working puppy should be brought up in an environment where there is a fair amount of rough play, roughhousing, etc. When we are training puppy or young dog we must carefully prepare the dog and support it as new situations are presented. This is especially critical when protection is introduced. The young dog is prepared for this at about 12 to 14 months of age. Trainers, and there are many of them introduce bite work on a live helper at an earlier age. This can be a recipe for disaster. In addition that young dog may look promising but tend to peak out at a young age due to an unbalanced working mentality in regards to protection work. The dog will essentially be working in frustrated prey drive moving forward, and not from a confident motivation in defense drive. One example of preparing a dog for protection work is in stick pressure hits. It helps to introduce it when the dog is not in defense. For example Cairo was overly sensitive to stick hits when they were first introduced. It was my fault for not preparing her well enough. So what I did was for a few weeks after giving her a tug reward in obedience training I would introduce roughhousing, light pressure with padded sticks, etc. After a few weeks she was properly de-sensitized to take whatever pressure was thrown her way.
Another thing discussed in that thread was if protection sports are the best way to evaluate the correct temperament of a Dobermann. But for example, Doberman is in the list of breeds that require a working test in order to be eligible for an FCI international beauty title (along with other breeds from the pinscher, schnauzer and molosoid group (2), herding group (1) and terrier group (3)). However, said working test is not limited to IGP, there are 4 working tests that can be used to give a working title and be ellegible for the international beauty championship: IGP, tracking, mondioring and Rescue. So, since mondio also is protection work, you hay 2 other tests that prove working ability (at least for FCI). Do you agree with this? Do you think those other types of works are not a good measure of the temperament of a Doberman? At the end of the day, this dog was used not only in protection but in many other jobs in law enforcement, the military etc. Plus other working breeds do other jobs different to their original job (all shepherds for example)....I do, however, believe that being primarily a protection breed, protection work might be like a gold standard?

Greetings to everyone
I don't know what new rules there are for FCI conformation breeding titles or whatever. I have long given up caring about such things. The advantage of Schutzhund is that it is the most standardized test in bite sports...at least as much as that is possible. I think protection work is the gold standard. I go farther than that. I think those basic tests are too easily manipulated with substandard judges, weak decoys, etc. It is really the bare minimum. It might be ok for a bitch that has already proved itself in the training process, but for dogs that are used for breeding purposes because of their working ability... then their performance in higher levels of competition as an IGP 3 dog should be the gold standard. I would want to see how the dog holds up after travel, new and strange environments, loud noises, nerves of the handler, major distractions, strange fields, strange helpers, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,101 Posts
First, I want to say that the desire to work has very little to do with food drive. We do not feed the dogs on the track or on the field. In fact, it is counter productive. We find that if the dog is hungry and you are feeding them as a reward, they are hectic and lack focus.
I strongly disagree with this. In the past if working with a high temperament dog then food is the best way to maintain hyper focus for continued work on the field. If working for a prey reward only (ball or tug) then it can be more difficult to keep the dog from being loaded to the point where they cannot focus. 8 years ago we shifted to obedience work with a heavier emphasis on a positive reward based marker training system. We use a lot of food with much better results than we ever had. We do mix it up a lot, food rewards, tug play rewards, and even prey/food rewards (throwing large sized kibble as the reward) but marker training with food reward is really the only way to increase focus and to maintain a working obedience session for an extended period of time. Don't get me wrong we do use corrections but more in the NePoPo style of remote collar work [/QUOTE]
I see that you have also bought into one of the biggest handicaps of the Doberman breed. "Working dogs can't be pretty and pretty dogs can't work." You do not say that expressly, but you divide the bred into "working line" and "non-working line."
I don't think a pretty dog excludes it from being able to work. However when breeding It is pretty damn difficult to have it all. Something has to give somewhere. This is especially true with the Doberman breed when considering all of the health issues, nerve issues in terms of working temperament, shallow gene pools, etc. Therefor if someone wants to compete at the world level in conformation then the top priority is conformation, followed by health issues, and usually a bare bones, minimum working title is only an afterthought. Certainly dogs that come out of this breeding protocol are going to produce less dogs capable of excellent working ability than dogs that are bred primarily for working temperament, with conformation being the lesser of the consideration.

When I went to the IDC Weltmeisterschaft in Lozorno in 2014 I really had two objectives. One was to try and compete, the other was to look at suitable dogs to breed to and to increase my knowledge of the top level dogs that were competing at the world stage. Prior to making the drive to Slovakia, I spent a lot of time in Cologne, Germany visiting with Elaine Brown Galonsaka. We looked at what people were doing in breeding programs. We observed that some well known "working line" breeders were going outside of their normal breeding considerations and using show dogs. They were likely forced to due to the shallow gene pool, as well as consideration of health issues. So I tried to keep an open mind to looking at everything that was out there. The fact was I did not really see a showline dog that impressed me. This was especially evident in the long bites. I spent a lot of time with Cat from Warringhof. I was really impressed with the dog from her kennel that was on the Belgian team that won the IDC WM the following year. Unfortunately the dog failed in tracking on the miserable Saturday morning tracking fields...as did 14 of the 21 dogs that competed that day (including Cairo). I had never talked to Cat before. I asked her about the dog, and she replied "He is a good dog but you can't use him he is a Von Willebrands Carrier like your bitch". It really struck me that this breeder I had never met knew the pedigree and health status of my bitch. Needless to say I spent a lot of time picking her brain. Every time I was impressed by a dog she would say, "too much Burgestadtte, or too close to your dog." I walked away pretty discouraged about the future of the Dobermann breed as a viable working dog.
[/QUOTE]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
I don't come on here very often, and looked back at that thread which is one I participated on 7 years ago. One cannot really change the nerve of the dog. However in case of nerves many dogs can be desensitized to pressure, threats, perceived environmental threats, etc. A working puppy should be brought up in an environment where there is a fair amount of rough play, roughhousing, etc. When we are training puppy or young dog we must carefully prepare the dog and support it as new situations are presented. This is especially critical when protection is introduced. The young dog is prepared for this at about 12 to 14 months of age. Trainers, and there are many of them introduce bite work on a live helper at an earlier age. This can be a recipe for disaster. In addition that young dog may look promising but tend to peak out at a young age due to an unbalanced working mentality in regards to protection work. The dog will essentially be working in frustrated prey drive moving forward, and not from a confident motivation in defense drive. One example of preparing a dog for protection work is in stick pressure hits. It helps to introduce it when the dog is not in defense. For example Cairo was overly sensitive to stick hits when they were first introduced. It was my fault for not preparing her well enough. So what I did was for a few weeks after giving her a tug reward in obedience training I would introduce roughhousing, light pressure with padded sticks, etc. After a few weeks she was properly de-sensitized to take whatever pressure was thrown her way.

I don't know what new rules there are for FCI conformation breeding titles or whatever. I have long given up caring about such things. The advantage of Schutzhund is that it is the most standardized test in bite sports...at least as much as that is possible. I think protection work is the gold standard. I go farther than that. I think those basic tests are too easily manipulated with substandard judges, weak decoys, etc. It is really the bare minimum. It might be ok for a bitch that has already proved itself in the training process, but for dogs that are used for breeding purposes because of their working ability... then their performance in higher levels of competition as an IGP 3 dog should be the gold standard. I would want to see how the dog holds up after travel, new and strange environments, loud noises, nerves of the handler, major distractions, strange fields, strange helpers, etc.
Thank you for your reply Rosamburg I was actually hoping you could give your opinion on the subject. And that's in agreement with what Medowcat, Gretchen_Red and the articles she gave us say. Nerves are an inherited trait, we cannot change it, but we can kind of modify how an specific stimulous is perceived by training or exposure and we can explote the best of the dog within its own inherited characteristics. So a thin nerve dog will always be thin nerve, but we can kinda rise his tolerance to certain stimulous in order to improve his performance.

And about the tests. By standardized Do you mean a "bullet proof pointing system" and three perfectly separated abilities to be evaluated? Based on this do you think IGP is the best protection sport there is? do you think there is any difference in terms of working abilities between a dog titled in Mondioring lll, and a dog titled in IGPlll, or French Ring, or any other Ring sports? Please note I am asking this because I have no experience in biting sports other than reading and seen a couple of IGP test, not want to polemize or anything.

Lastly I agree biting sports are like the gold standard for a protection breed. But talking again about other working activities, for example wouldn't a Doberman, who has a Search and Rescue in rubble title (put any other working title here) or even proved in a real situation and temperament tested, be considered as a good working Doberman? or would be a good working dog (Doberman or not)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,026 Posts
Kansadobe said:
First, I want to say that the desire to work has very little to do with food drive. We do not feed the dogs on the track or on the field. In fact, it is counter productive. We find that if the dog is hungry and you are feeding them as a reward, they are hectic and lack focus.


I strongly disagree with this. In the past if working with a high temperament dog then food is the best way to maintain hyper focus for continued work on the field. If working for a prey reward only (ball or tug) then it can be more difficult to keep the dog from being loaded to the point where they cannot focus. 8 years ago we shifted to obedience work with a heavier emphasis on a positive reward based marker training system. We use a lot of food with much better results than we ever had. We do mix it up a lot, food rewards, tug play rewards, and even prey/food rewards (throwing large sized kibble as the reward) but marker training with food reward is really the only way to increase focus and to maintain a working obedience session for an extended period of time. Don't get me wrong we do use corrections but more in the NePoPo style of remote collar work
I think we have a misunderstanding. I did not say to never use food in training. However, I have ran across too many people that claim to "only feed them during training." I sharply disagree with this. We typically give them a small meal before training, especially tracking, or they are very hectic because they are hungry. Yes, we do use food as markers or rewards, but they get fed normal meals as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
Kansadobe said:
I think we have a misunderstanding. I did not say to never use food in training. However, I have ran across too many people that claim to "only feed them during training." I sharply disagree with this. We typically give them a small meal before training, especially tracking, or they are very hectic because they are hungry. Yes, we do use food as markers or rewards, but they get fed normal meals as well.
Yes! some people say to avoid feeding one day before training and only give the dog his portion during training. I've seen this aiming to improve the interest of some dogs with not a lot of drive. I don't think it worked, none of the dogs I saw really improved with this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,101 Posts
And about the tests. By standardized Do you mean a "bullet proof pointing system" and three perfectly separated abilities to be evaluated? Based on this do you think IGP is the best protection sport there is? do you think there is any difference in terms of working abilities between a dog titled in Mondioring lll, and a dog titled in IGPlll, or French Ring, or any other Ring sports? Please note I am asking this because I have no experience in biting sports other than reading and seen a couple of IGP test, not want to polemize or anything.

Lastly I agree biting sports are like the gold standard for a protection breed. But talking again about other working activities, for example wouldn't a Doberman, who has a Search and Rescue in rubble title (put any other working title here) or even proved in a real situation and temperament tested, be considered as a good working Doberman? or would be a good working dog (Doberman or not)?
Schutzhund is as standardized as it gets. Each exercise is the same, in the same order and there is effort at least to standardize judging. That said everyone in the sport knows there are huge variances on how trials are put on. They vary from club to club. Some helpers are more talented than others, some bring more pressure, etc. In addition there can be a huge variance in the quality of judges, variance in how difficult they are, etc. In addition it is typical for large competitions to be judged more harshly than say a club trial. I really can't speak to other dog sports. I am sure that SAR and the preparation for it can reveal traits in the dog, work ethic, etc. However it does not really reveal the temperament in regards to what the dog is bred for. I think bite sports are what would reveal that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,101 Posts
Kansadobe said:

I think we have a misunderstanding. I did not say to never use food in training. However, I have ran across too many people that claim to "only feed them during training." I sharply disagree with this. We typically give them a small meal before training, especially tracking, or they are very hectic because they are hungry. Yes, we do use food as markers or rewards, but they get fed normal meals as well.
fair enough. However if one is working a dog a lot and using food, if being fed outside of the work then overfeeding can cause weight gain, lethargy, etc. During intense periods of training, I don't see it has making them hungry prior to training. But if their food is a result of their work it does add a certain focus to the work. Some top trainers take it a lot further and how much is fed is broken down into a kind of science, much like a boxer or martial artist leading up to a fight. Then again they are taking training to a level few of us can imagine. They are taking marker training, remote collar work, and classical conditioning to a level most of us cannot imagine. The classical conditioning is so minute even top judges can't recognize it. I hear about a dog lacking food drive, I have never experienced such a dog of the 4 dogs I have worked in Schutzhund. I again wonder if it is more related to the dog's lifestyle and lack of discipline with the owner/handler. When I'm training, I only use Royal Canine German Shepherd dog food. I don't use treats, hot dogs, etc anymore. The RC GSD kibble is huge so works well as a marker reward, or even as food for a track.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Schutzhund is as standardized as it gets. Each exercise is the same, in the same order and there is effort at least to standardize judging. That said everyone in the sport knows there are huge variances on how trials are put on. They vary from club to club. Some helpers are more talented than others, some bring more pressure, etc. In addition there can be a huge variance in the quality of judges, variance in how difficult they are, etc. In addition it is typical for large competitions to be judged more harshly than say a club trial. I really can't speak to other dog sports. I am sure that SAR and the preparation for it can reveal traits in the dog, work ethic, etc. However it does not really reveal the temperament in regards to what the dog is bred for. I think bite sports are what would reveal that.
I get it protection dog, protection sport.
I don't think a pretty dog excludes it from being able to work. However when breeding It is pretty damn difficult to have it all. Something has to give somewhere. This is especially true with the Doberman breed when considering all of the health issues, nerve issues in terms of working temperament, shallow gene pools, etc. Therefor if someone wants to compete at the world level in conformation then the top priority is conformation, followed by health issues, and usually a bare bones, minimum working title is only an afterthought. Certainly dogs that come out of this breeding protocol are going to produce less dogs capable of excellent working ability than dogs that are bred primarily for working temperament, with conformation being the lesser of the consideration.

When I went to the IDC Weltmeisterschaft in Lozorno in 2014 I really had two objectives. One was to try and compete, the other was to look at suitable dogs to breed to and to increase my knowledge of the top level dogs that were competing at the world stage. Prior to making the drive to Slovakia, I spent a lot of time in Cologne, Germany visiting with Elaine Brown Galonsaka. We looked at what people were doing in breeding programs. We observed that some well known "working line" breeders were going outside of their normal breeding considerations and using show dogs. They were likely forced to due to the shallow gene pool, as well as consideration of health issues. So I tried to keep an open mind to looking at everything that was out there. The fact was I did not really see a showline dog that impressed me. This was especially evident in the long bites. I spent a lot of time with Cat from Warringhof. I was really impressed with the dog from her kennel that was on the Belgian team that won the IDC WM the following year. Unfortunately the dog failed in tracking on the miserable Saturday morning tracking fields...as did 14 of the 21 dogs that competed that day (including Cairo). I had never talked to Cat before. I asked her about the dog, and she replied "He is a good dog but you can't use him he is a Von Willebrands Carrier like your bitch". It really struck me that this breeder I had never met knew the pedigree and health status of my bitch. Needless to say I spent a lot of time picking her brain. Every time I was impressed by a dog she would say, "too much Burgestadtte, or too close to your dog." I walked away pretty discouraged about the future of the Dobermann breed as a viable working dog.
I really hope the future is not that bad
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,101 Posts
I believe it is. I have seen too many of the top working people switch to other breeds, I don't consider myself a top working handler but that includes me. There are many, many contributing factors. Working breeders wore blinders too long in regards to health issues. As the gene pool was diminished, many top breeders maintained a inbreeding co-efficient that was way too high. The ban on cropping/docking led many to abandon the breed. The German Doberman breed club never relaxed its stance on AI breeding. Therefor many of the top working dogs, with excellent working ability, health and longevity were not bred after their passing, nor could their progeny realistically extend beyond Germany. Too many Doberman handlers and breeders wear rose-colored glasses in regard to their dogs temperament and working (or lack thereof) ability. Too many dogs were bred without much real knowledge of their true working character. IDC working judges hold too low of a standard on performances....the list goes on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
I believe it is. I have seen too many of the top working people switch to other breeds, I don't consider myself a top working handler but that includes me. There are many, many contributing factors. Working breeders wore blinders too long in regards to health issues. As the gene pool was diminished, many top breeders maintained a inbreeding co-efficient that was way too high. The ban on cropping/docking led many to abandon the breed. The German Doberman breed club never relaxed its stance on AI breeding. Therefor many of the top working dogs, with excellent working ability, health and longevity were not bred after their passing, nor could their progeny realistically extend beyond Germany. Too many Doberman handlers and breeders wear rose-colored glasses in regard to their dogs temperament and working (or lack thereof) ability. Too many dogs were bred without much real knowledge of their true working character. IDC working judges hold too low of a standard on performances....the list goes on.
What a shame! Don't you think this problem can be solved at least partially by these working-show crossbreedings done by responsible breeders that have been mentioned here?
You know people here tend to think working lines are healthier -I used to think that way until I talked to a serious breeder established in Europe- or that Euro dogs are healthier. People and some "breeders" think that European line is a synonym of working line, which actually doesn't matter because 99% of those "breeders" of Euro dogs don't do a thing with their dogs other than bragging and breed them. This is also a shame because it contributes to the degeneration of the breed in all aspects and like it was said in that old thread when people try to do something with them and the dog has not what is needed, they leave the breed and stops considering Doberman as a working dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,101 Posts
What a shame! Don't you think this problem can be solved at least partially by these working-show crossbreedings done by responsible breeders that have been mentioned here?
You know people here tend to think working lines are healthier -I used to think that way until I talked to a serious breeder established in Europe- or that Euro dogs are healthier. People and some "breeders" think that European line is a synonym of working line, which actually doesn't matter because 99% of those "breeders" of Euro dogs don't do a thing with their dogs other than bragging and breed them. This is also a shame because it contributes to the degeneration of the breed in all aspects and like it was said in that old thread when people try to do something with them and the dog has not what is needed, they leave the breed and stops considering Doberman as a working dog.
Yes it is a shame. I don't have much hope. For all of the reasons listed above, and probably more. The problem with outcrossing with the working lines to show lines is that it is hard to say what you are going to get, and you can count on getting a dog with less heart, drive and aggression in the progeny. To then line breed from there with a concerted effort toward developing working traits and temperament would take several generations... and a whole lot of resources, dedication, people who have the experience, time and desire to work the dogs, as well as people with a real eye toward working ability, drives, temperament, etc. Those people are very rare in all of the dog world, especially in the Doberman breed.
 
21 - 34 of 34 Posts
Top