Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

61 - 80 of 89 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2 Posts
well then I guess that VetGen report that I have from her DNA test was WRONG as it says Carrier. And the University of Missouri Veterinary College and the VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center Dr Grigsby must be wrong. This is a disease that "Type-I
vWd occurs in many breeds of dogs and is particularly
prevalent in Doberman Pinschers, with reported prevalence
of 70%.6" according to VETGEN website, needs to be stopped.
Hello frznbuns. Holy smokes, I just got signed in when this thread was young. I do not like gang bangers so will post an opinion.

Looks to me like some members here are trying to give you a hard time for "whatever" reason. You state that you were a member here from long ago and now have just one Doberman. What is the big issue?

I see too, that there is quite a bit of this thread is now missing. What is up with that? I joined this site, with trepidation, to glean Doberman related information. Seeing this thread and the amount of members who have banned as a subtitle tells me the claims of others about this site are correct. You owe the inquisitors no explanation of you or your life with Dobermans. What a nasty place to visit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #62
Hello frznbuns. Holy smokes, I just got signed in when this thread was young. I do not like gang bangers so will post an opinion.

Looks to me like some members here are trying to give you a hard time for "whatever" reason. You state that you were a member here from long ago and now have just one Doberman. What is the big issue?

I see too, that there is quite a bit of this thread is now missing. What is up with that? I joined this site, with trepidation, to glean Doberman related information. Seeing this thread and the amount of members who have banned as a subtitle tells me the claims of others about this site are correct. You owe the inquisitors no explanation of you or your life with Dobermans. What a nasty place to visit.
Thank you for your KIND words. I joined this site when it first was formed. I joined to talk about Dobermans with others who love the breed as much as I do. I would tell everyone I knew who had a Doberman about this site. Now I just don't know.
Thank you again!!!!!!!:nicejob::nicejob:
I have TWO Dobermans now, Yuki my rescue Albino (CREAM And WHITE COLORED ) Girl we got from Ohio Doberman Rescue and now my new Service in training Puppy Senshi (black and tan). He has just had his ears cropped BY MY VET(as I didn't like the breeders Vet ear cropping technic or style) plus he is battling an UTI, he starts puppy classes in about 4 weeks. We have already started basic training. He comes on command, sits, walks on a leash, loads in the car GREAT,and sits to great people without jumping on them and is potty trained for pooping.:nicejob: he will pee outside on command but with his UTI we have to watch him in the house because he goes about every half hour. I think for a 10week 2 day old puppy I think that is GREAT!!
Again thank you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services

Carrier to clear breedings have no chance of producing affected dogs.

Affected to clear breedings would only produce carriers.

A dog that is a vWD clear or carrier by DNA will not have bleeding issues due to vWD. And not all affected will have bleeding issues. I have owned 2 Dobermans with vWD, one that had a history of clinical bleeding issues and one that has never had any issues.

There are many other clotting factors other than the vW one. I am not disagreeing that your dog potentially had a bleeding issue, but assuming that the DNA result was correct (lab mistakes can happen), it was not due to Von Willebrands.
I never said that the clotting factor was due to the fact that she was a carrier of the VwD Gene. I said that she was Carrier and she also has only a 4% clotting factor in her blood. And for that reason she was spay!!
VwD is a terrible disease. Breeders need to stop breeding dogs of all breeds not just Dobermans that VwD can affect. According to VETGEN website"Although Dobermans are commonly affected, they usually have the mildest form of the disease."

Another study showed that 30% of Scottish terriers and 28% of Shetland sheep dogs had abnormally low concentrations of von Willebrand factor. Chesapeake Bay Retrievers and Scottish terriers are affected with the most severe form of the disease."

This disease need to be STOPPED!! We need to see VwD eradicated! We need to save our beautiful Dobermans and other breeds from this Disease.
Why on earth would you breed or show a dog who is a carrier or affected?
Isn't the reason we show our dogs is to present the Best of the Best inside and out. Why would we do all the health testing if we were not doing it for the Best of our pets? Show in Conformation is not just a beauty contest. Don't the judges not only look at teeth, bone structure, coats? If the reason for showing is to show the best of that breed and to maybe in the future breed that dog or bitch, then why would the dogs have to be intact!? You are looking for the BEST of that Breed to in the future have it sire puppies of excellent quality!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
I never said that the clotting factor was due to the fact that she was a carrier of the VwD Gene. I said that she was Carrier and she also has only a 4% clotting factor in her blood. And for that reason she was spay!!
VwD is a terrible disease. Breeders need to stop breeding dogs of all breeds not just Dobermans that VwD can affect. According to VETGEN website"Although Dobermans are commonly affected, they usually have the mildest form of the disease."

Another study showed that 30% of Scottish terriers and 28% of Shetland sheep dogs had abnormally low concentrations of von Willebrand factor. Chesapeake Bay Retrievers and Scottish terriers are affected with the most severe form of the disease."

This disease need to be STOPPED!! We need to see VwD eradicated! We need to save our beautiful Dobermans and other breeds from this Disease.
Why on earth would you breed or show a dog who is a carrier or affected?

Isn't the reason we show our dogs is to present the Best of the Best inside and out. Why would we do all the health testing if we were not doing it for the Best of our pets? Show in Conformation is not just a beauty contest. Don't the judges not only look at teeth, bone structure, coats? If the reason for showing is to show the best of that breed and to maybe in the future breed that dog or bitch, then why would the dogs have to be intact!? You are looking for the BEST of that Breed to in the future have it sire puppies of excellent quality!
I'm not a show breeder, but from what I have come to understand, there are worse diseases that need to be bred out of the disease. I read recently that almost 70% of dobes will die of DCM. There is also CVI, and liver disease is creeping around the breed too. I don't believe that one should breed carrier to carrier or an affected dog to a carrier or an affected bitch at all. (thinking about her pregnancy and delivery being an extremely complicated one) I do think there are worse diseases like the three above that should be the focus of breeders eradicating the breed from. At least vWD can be somewhat controlled. Just my perspective on the matter.
 

·
Sirai Dobermans
Joined
·
2,100 Posts
You know..I've got no actual proof that being affected is the cause, but when researching pedigrees and longevity lately I'm coming across a whole lot of dogs that are vwd affected and living some very long lives! They're also producing that longevity too.

Its easy to say stop breeding vwd affecteds, but in doing that are we missing out on some of that longevity?

I believe that carrier to carrier isn't that bad of a breeding if done to avoid other health risks. Statistically this type of breeding will produce 25% clear, 50% carrier and 25% affected. That alone just added a few dogs to the clear gene pool. We don't have that many clear dogs with longevity at the moment. We're working on it. But 75% of those puppies aren't an issue. And it's unlikely that the 25% affected will be clinically affected.

No good breeder WANTS to produce affecteds, but sometimes the choice is better than breeding to a clear who dropped dead of cardio at 4. Or to a clear that has 5 generations of cvi in BOTH sides of the pedigree. I'll choose an affected with good longevity over cvi and cardio any day.

A good friend of mine bred her affected bitch to a clear dog last year. This is her foundation bitch. In one breeding she's already improved by those pups being carriers. Her affected bitch had a textbook whelping (I know because I was there for it), she carried and raised 9 healthy puppies who will ALL be celebrating their first birthdays in a few weeks.

Its easy to sit back and say what you won't do...but when actually considering these situations as A WHOLE (vwd vs cardio vs cvi, etc) sometimes its not at all so black and white.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #66
What I am trying to say is that we decided that we did not want Raven to show knowing that she was a carrier of the VwD gene and that she only had a 4% clotting factor in her blood. I feel that as a pet community we need to try to eradicate as many of these disease as we can. that comes with testing to make sure that the Bitch and Sire are as healthy as possible inside and out.. Mommyblaze3- I was not just talking about VwD but all diseases in our pets(Dogs, Cats, Rodents, Fish, Large Animals) we should be concerned with.
 

·
Sirai Dobermans
Joined
·
2,100 Posts
What I am trying to say is that we decided that we did not want Raven to show knowing that she was a carrier of the VwD gene and that she only had a 4% clotting factor in her blood. I feel that as a pet community we need to try to eradicate as many of these disease as we can. that comes with testing to make sure that the Bitch and Sire are as healthy as possible inside and out.. Mommyblaze3- I was not just talking about VwD but all diseases in our pets(Dogs, Cats, Rodents, Fish, Large Animals) we should be concerned with.
So are you saying that I should spay my GCH bitch because she's a CARRIER?!

What some have tried to tell you is that your "carrier" bitch is only carrier if it's a DNA test that determined that. Go ahead, use the clotting factor test today and I'll bet that its a different number. Because there are a variety of factors that can influence the clotting factor percentage. That's why its been determined to be an unreliable test in most cases.

No serious Doberman breeder that I know is going to pull a beautiful bitch from the show ring because she's a carrier. They pull them when they aren't competitive or have DQs or temperament problems, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #68
No I am not telling anyone what to do with their Carrier or affected dogs. I am saying that it was our decision like it would be for anyone. Raven was beautiful, great lines, good temperament. but on the advise of all the Vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it. What is the problem with that?? It was our dog, we talked to 3 Vets and our Handler to make the decision to pull her from showing and spay her.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
frznbuns, from what I'm reading, it sounds like it's your personal belief that regardless of other factors involved a carrier or affected dog should not be bred? Just trying to get to the bottom of it all.

(which is fine, we all have things we hold strong)
 

·
Sirai Dobermans
Joined
·
2,100 Posts
No I am not telling anyone what to do with their Carrier or affected dogs. I am saying that it was our decision like it would be for anyone. Raven was beautiful, great lines, good temperament. but on the advise of all the Vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it. What is the problem with that?? It was our dog, we talked to 3 Vets and our Handler to make the decision to pull her from showing and spay her.
The problem is that you are propagating garbage. "On advise of all vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it."

1-my bitch doesn't bleed during a show grooming. I'm not tearing her hide off to show her. I'm not ripping toe nails off her feet. I mean wtf? What the hell kind of grooming is your "handler" doing?
2-your vet advice tells me that you need a new vet. One familiar with what vwd carrier means in Dobermans.
3-every time I challenge something you say, you tweak your story

If you decided that you just didn't want to show and because she's an untitled, vwd carrier that you had no purpose to keep her intact...well then fine. Just say that. Don't perpetuate that the breed is doomed due to vwd and that carriers shouldn't be shown.

I'm willing to bet that if your handler agreed to pull her and spay...it was because she didn't stand a shot in hell. She was a pet. Not competitive for whatever reason.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Dobiewan: Totally for my own learning curve here, would a working breeder not want to breed or work affected dogs? OP has said that when she bred she was breeding her dogs toward working and less toward show. Maybe that's where her philosophy is coming from?
 

·
Sirai Dobermans
Joined
·
2,100 Posts
Dobiewan: Totally for my own learning curve here, would a working breeder not want to breed or work affected dogs? OP has said that when she bred she was breeding her dogs toward working and less toward show. Maybe that's where her philosophy is coming from?
I can't speak for what a working breeder breeds for because I'm not one. But I happen to know someone who currently works both an affected and a carrier and that person wouldn't DREAM of spaying/neutering just for that unless the affected was CLINICALLY AFFECTED.

In some aspects, I suppose the two (show and working) are similar. If I've just bred the best bitch I've ever bred in my life and she's a conformation rock star but is also a carrier...so what. Not spaying for that.

If I've just bred my best working prospect and he's turning out to be phenomenal, but is a carrier...so what. Not neutering for that.

The simple fact is that in doing that you are "throwing out the baby with the bath water." Are you willing to throw away everything you've worked for when you can theoretically breed those dogs to a clear and it's no longer an issue?

Someone serious about breeding and improving on the breed (whether show or working) isn't going to chop off one part of the gene pool over a dog that carries one positive and one negative for vwd. There are many more that aren't going to cut out a gene pool where dogs are living 10+ years and passing that longevity on just because they're affected. Again, there are far more pressing health concerns that are completely uncontrollable at the moment and even more increasingly hard to avoid.
 

·
Got mutt?
Joined
·
13,603 Posts
Dobiewan: Totally for my own learning curve here, would a working breeder not want to breed or work affected dogs? OP has said that when she bred she was breeding her dogs toward working and less toward show. Maybe that's where her philosophy is coming from?
Unless the dog was a clinical bleeder, I don't seen why you wouldn't work an affected dog.
 

·
Sirai Dobermans
Joined
·
2,100 Posts
I suppose the more pressing question is, if this person didn't believe that a vwd carrier is worthy of showing in the breed ring then why did they breed or purchase a vwd carrier in the first place?

This is why none of this is logical.:confused:
 

·
Pro Snake Wiggler
Joined
·
2,267 Posts
Unless the dog was a clinical bleeder, I don't seen why you wouldn't work an affected dog.
Most- not saying all- but most reputable working breeders I know will not willingly produce an affected dog, which means if they are buying from other reputable working breeders, they're not buying affected dogs to work and then breed either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mommyblaze3

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
A vWD carrier has no risk of bleeding due to low levels of vWD clotting factor. The bloodwork assay method is very unreliable. Those are facts, backed by scientific publications, not opinions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #77
A vWD carrier has no risk of bleeding due to low levels of vWD clotting factor. The bloodwork assay method is very unreliable. Those are facts, backed by scientific publications, not opinions.
Like I said in a previous statement. I NEVER said that her low clotting factor was because of VwD. She was a carrier. This was done by DNA test by VETGEN. My Vet, the University of Missouri veterinarian School of medicine , and VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center Specialist did her Clotting factor test. She was a year old at the time. They also ran things like Heart, Thyroid, etc. Like I also said previously, one day she cut her thigh by my rose bush, an 1/8" or smaller and it bled on and off for several weeks or more. We were very afraid to even have her spay. We had donor blood from Spirit standing by just in case. Now there was not much of a problem with the ears in bleeding but cut her toe nails a little too short and the bleeding would be for sometimes 2 days(and I am not saying just a little blood, I mean soaking through the bandages) We just did not want to take a chance. And I think that it was our decision with the advice of all the Vets and our handler. It had NOTHING to do with her look, Stance, markings, temperament, Etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #78
The problem is that you are propagating garbage. "On advise of all vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it."

1-my bitch doesn't bleed during a show grooming. I'm not tearing her hide off to show her. I'm not ripping toe nails off her feet. I mean wtf? What the hell kind of grooming is your "handler" doing?
2-your vet advice tells me that you need a new vet. One familiar with what vwd carrier means in Dobermans.
3-every time I challenge something you say, you tweak your story

If you decided that you just didn't want to show and because she's an untitled, vwd carrier that you had no purpose to keep her intact...well then fine. Just say that. Don't perpetuate that the breed is doomed due to vwd and that carriers shouldn't be shown.

I'm willing to bet that if your handler agreed to pull her and spay...it was because she didn't stand a shot in hell. She was a pet. Not competitive for whatever reason.
Like I said in a previous statement. I NEVER said that her low clotting factor was because of VwD. She was a carrier. This was done by DNA test by VETGEN. My Vet, the University of Missouri veterinarian School of medicine , and VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center Specialist did her Clotting factor test. They also ran things like Heart, Thyroid, etc. Like I also said previously, one day she cut her thigh by my rose bush, an 1/8" or smaller and it bled on and off for several weeks or more. We were very afraid to even have her spay. We had donor blood from Spirit standing by just in case. Now there was not much of a problem with the ears in bleeding but cut her toe nails a little too short and the bleeding would be for sometimes 2 days(and I am not saying just a little blood, I mean soaking through the bandages) We just did not want to take a chance. And I think that it was our decision with the advice of all the Vets and our handler. It had NOTHING to do with her look, Stance, markings, temperament, Etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Frznbuns... you say initially before even bringing up clotting factors that you had her spayed bc she "was a high carrier of vWD". I would copy the quote but I'm on my tablet and it is acting up. But if you read back through, its there in black and white.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #80
yes, it was our decision to spay her. If I miss quoted myself Sorry!! But again, it was our decision to do what we thought was the best for our dog. She became a great Therapy dog and so much fun at agility (as long as the weather was good and the grass was dry LOL) Raven was a princess, she hated getting her feet dirty. She would clean them each time she came in for the yard, she hated wet grass. LOL but would play in the garden hose on our patio for so long. LOL my water bill would be high just because of her but she was worth it.
 
61 - 80 of 89 Posts
Top