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First off I have been with this forum since it first started. next. I went through my 500 post and I do not see where you are saying that my post look like I am a BYB also that two of my dogs almost ended up in rescues. Please reread the post. the one you are looking at say" that while working in my backyard, my 4 dogs went nuts and I saw my hubby with a Doberman in our alley." We found the dog running loose. We took the dog around the neighborhood for 7 hours knocking on doors putting up posters looking or the owners. Where we live we only have animal control to put a lost dog. so that is what I did. I also tried to contact KC MO Doberman rescue but got no help. As I was going to animal control every day to check on the Blue Male that we had to take to them, Another Doberman was surrendered to Animal control by someone else. I told Animal control that I would take them to NE Doberman Rescue but both got Adopted.!!!! next I do not list all the credits that my dogs have because that is my business and no one else. If you find a post of mine that says "Bceause I wouldn't take them back for the buyer" I am from Missouri and I say "Show Me". Hey all try and have a happy Holiday. I know I will because I have my two beautiful Dobermans by my side . My Beautiful WHITE "Yuki" and my Beautiful Black "Senshi"
Here is the thread I was referring to frznbuns....

http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-rescue/59677-2-doberman-wi-need-homes.html
 

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Discussion Starter #42
First off I never said they were from me or any other Breeder I know in that thread. MMMMM I wonder where you got this information. Second, he is a very good friend of mine and I would go to any length for him and his dogs. next with my help he ended up keeping both dogs. Zada died not long ago, Last year. and I hear from him and get photos of Rom all the time.
I hope this clears things up for you. I really think facts should be checked before calling someone out on them
 

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First off I never said they were from me or any other Breeder I know in that thread. MMMMM I wonder where you got this information. Second, he is a very good friend of mine and I would go to any length for him and his dogs. next with my help he ended up keeping both dogs. Zada died not long ago, Last year. and I hear from him and get photos of Rom all the time.
I hope this clears things up for you. I really think facts should be checked before calling someone out on them

You say in post #5.... "I am the breeder and yes they are AKC. If Spirit was not so old I would take them in a heartbeat!!! That is why he contacted me first.. I am contacting everyone I know that would love to give these two beautiful babies a home.. "
 

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Like I said, We Breed Spirit, for a working line. Out of this litter, 3 went to show, 2 went to Police to work in the prison system in NY and PA, One is in search and rescue and 2 are Assistance dogs. it was a litter of 9 with one lost at birth. I have no regrets or apologizes for breeding a litter of wonderful working dogs. Spirit lived to almost 13 years old and most of the litter are now most 7 years old. We lost one to an accident at age 5. I keep in contact with every owner. As for my other Dobermans in my family Raven was our first after almost 25 years. She was Spayed and died at 7 1/2 bad heart, Iris our blue rescue just died last year of cancer in her brain, Gypsy (Spirits's mate) was to be shown but at age 1 she fell off our deck and had to have 4 teeth pulled or grinded down. She was also my assistance dog. She just died a year ago. she had developed arthritis so bad in her hips that we put her to sleep at age 9. Now I hope that answers your questions.:)
Welcome back. I don't think I was here when you were around before.

To have 5 of 8 pups working out of a litter is great.

From what I've learned Dobermans don't seem to be the go-to dogs for police forces anymore. What exactly have these pups done? As in, are they guard dog, drug detecting dogs, etc? I love learning about the various "jobs" dogs have and how different agencies rely on them.

I don't have a Doberman yet, but I hope to in the future. Reading stories like yours about a family that has had Dobermans for years and hates to be without them is nice. Makes me look forward to the day I can have a Dobe even more. I currently share my home with two Border Collies. One of these days I'll have my own home and some land and enough money to add a Doberman, too. I must have a thing for crazy, high-energy breeds.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Welcome back. I don't think I was here when you were around before.

To have 5 of 8 pups working out of a litter is great.

From what I've learned Dobermans don't seem to be the go-to dogs for police forces anymore. What exactly have these pups done? As in, are they guard dog, drug detecting dogs, etc? I love learning about the various "jobs" dogs have and how different agencies rely on them.

I don't have a Doberman yet, but I hope to in the future. Reading stories like yours about a family that has had Dobermans for years and hates to be without them is nice. Makes me look forward to the day I can have a Dobe even more. I currently share my home with two Border Collies. One of these days I'll have my own home and some land and enough money to add a Doberman, too. I must have a thing for crazy, high-energy breeds.
The ones in the Prison system were for Drug detecting. Thank you for asking. I never thought it was a problem to have a Doberman to be working rather that just for show. the Doberman was developed to be a working dog not just a pretty thing to walk around the show ring. I see nothing work with having a Show Doberman or a Working Doberman. Thank you again for asking!!:nicejob:
 

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Discussion Starter #46
You say in post #5.... "I am the breeder and yes they are AKC. If Spirit was not so old I would take them in a heartbeat!!! That is why he contacted me first.. I am contacting everyone I know that would love to give these two beautiful babies a home.. "
Yes I was the Breeder for Zada. She was one of our dogs that the owner was showing. His other dog the male was not related to Spirit. (I guess I did not make that crystal clear at the time) We would have taken Zada back in a heart beat. But #1 the male was about a year old puppy and I would not want to have 2 males in one household. Even though Spirit was such a gentle Boy, I had always heard that 2 males in a house was not a good thing. Like I said earlier. I was able to help the Owner out of a bad problem and He was able to keep both his dogs. Zada died just about a year ago if I remember correctly and the Male is still living. the Owner emails or calls me every so often to catch up. I really hope this clears every ???? up for you.
 

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The ones in the Prison system were for Drug detecting. Thank you for asking. I never thought it was a problem to have a Doberman to be working rather that just for show. the Doberman was developed to be a working dog not just a pretty thing to walk around the show ring. I see nothing work with having a Show Doberman or a Working Doberman. Thank you again for asking!!:nicejob:
Then why are you wanting to show Senshi? And why did you want to show Spirit (but he had faults in his markings), and why did you want to show Raven, (but she was missing teeth)? Why not focus on getting Senshi a MACH or IPO title, for example?

We will just have to agree to disagree about your breeding program.
 

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Then why are you wanting to show Senshi? And why did you want to show Spirit (but he had faults in his markings), and why did you want to show Raven, (but she was missing teeth)?

We will just have to agree to disagree about your breeding program.
I'm not going to comment on this individual's breeding program (only half read this thread), but I do think a dobe can work and be shown. And If every dog was a Fifi clone, what would be the point of the competition?

Sure there are standards, but I think that's the whole point of competition in my mind. Some folks just like the atmosphere, seeing how their dog stacks up, and sometimes depending upon who shows up - you may win! Sort of like your kid trying out for football even though he's not Tom Brady. Sure he's not going to make the NFL, or Westminster, but doesn't mean he can't be competitive in some niche of the world.
 

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I'm not going to comment on this individual's breeding program (only half read this thread), but I do think a dobe can work and be shown. And If every dog was a Fifi clone, what would be the point of the competition?

Sure there are standards, but I think that's the whole point of competition in my mind. Some folks just like the atmosphere, seeing how their dog stacks up, and sometimes depending upon who shows up - you may win! Sort of like your kid trying out for football even though he's not Tom Brady. Sure he's not going to make the NFL, or Westminster, but doesn't mean he can't be competitive in some niche of the world.
I agree with you Charger. My point was that OP hasn't really worked her dogs in either arena (as far as I could tell, she has said they hold titles but the only mentioned are CGC, TD and TT) and was breeding them.

It just seems OP contradicts herself a lot, she has talked about titles not mattering, and now alludes to the Doberman was developed to be a working dog not just a pretty thing to walk around the show ring, but has talked about wanting to show her past two dogs and her current puppy.

Bottom line, IN MY OPINION, and I am going to speak candidly here, not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings or be a bully or cause drama, OP was a BYB.

My thought was, by trying to subtly (in the beginning) point these things out to her that maybe she could reflect on her prior breeding program and if she decides to breed her current male, learn from her shortcomings and become a better breeder, possibly even seek out a mentor.

My intention was never to attack her or go after her maliciously. I much rather see someone learn from their mistakes (myself included) and become better for it, than be turned off by a person on a dog forum and keep breeding the way she was in the past.

I also have a lot more respect for people that own up to their mistakes and are willing to learn and grow from them, instead of defending those mistakes. We are all human after all and mistakes are part of learning and human nature. I would never ever chastise someone who said, "yeah, I screwed up and I am better for it". I would applaud and commend them.

However, I did lose patience a little there when she was dodging my questions and backpedaling (and is still continuing to do so, IMO)

That's why I just kind of threw my hands up in the last post and said I disagree with her past breeding program. This is the last thing I want to say about it. I think everyone here is smart enough to make their own conclusions about the situation at hand.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Then why are you wanting to show Senshi? And why did you want to show Spirit (but he had faults in his markings), and why did you want to show Raven, (but she was missing teeth)? Why not focus on getting Senshi a MACH or IPO title, for example?

We will just have to agree to disagree about your breeding program.
We were going to show Raven (our first Doberman) but after her blood test and DNA test we found out that she was a high Carrier of VwD and was then spay. like I said I wanted to show Spirit( our second Doberman) but after trying with a handler, trainer, we decided that his marking next to the front of his nose was too dark, so we went for Working. he was my first Therapy and Assistance dog. Again, We started Agility with Spirit, but with my handicaps we had to do it just for fun. He also had some Protection training but I was not interested in an IPO because he was for Therapy and Assistance for my disability. Gypsy was the one who lost or cracked 4 teeth as a puppy. She was my other Therapy dog.
I have been trying to show for several years and now I am going to try with Senshi. if he does well then good if not then no big deal. He is still going to be trained in Therapy and Assistance for me.
Like I said before, Doberman's were created as a working breed but I don't have a problem with people using them to show either. I think it is up to the owner to decide.
 

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We were going to show Raven (our first Doberman) but after her blood test and DNA test we found out that she was a high Carrier of VwD and was then spay. like I said I wanted to show Spirit( our second Doberman) but after trying with a handler, trainer, we decided that his marking next to the front of his nose was too dark, so we went for Working. he was my first Therapy and Assistance dog. Again, We started Agility with Spirit, but with my handicaps we had to do it just for fun. He also had some Protection training but I was not interested in an IPO because he was for Therapy and Assistance for my disability. Gypsy was the one who lost or cracked 4 teeth as a puppy. She was my other Therapy dog.
I have been trying to show for several years and now I am going to try with Senshi. if he does well then good if not then no big deal. He is still going to be trained in Therapy and Assistance for me.
Like I said before, Doberman's were created as a working breed but I don't have a problem with people using them to show either. I think it is up to the owner to decide.
I really hope you and Senshi do well in the ring. I'm rooting for you in that regard, for sure! I just don't think that one should breed dogs without significant working and/or show titles. I actually used to be more lenient on this, but after some reflection and personal growth and learning, I don't feel that it's okay to "let it slide" anymore. Does that make sense, I hope?

My long term goals for my guy are a CGC, WAC, SD trained and CAT (but this would be totally for fun, not sure if we would have the time to really dive into LC hard core.

He's got his AKC STAR puppy and he's still breathing (has not been turned into a rug) ....It's a start!
 

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We were going to show Raven (our first Doberman) but after her blood test and DNA test we found out that she was a high Carrier of VwD and was then spay. like I said I wanted to show Spirit( our second Doberman) but after trying with a handler, trainer, we decided that his marking next to the front of his nose was too dark, so we went for Working. he was my first Therapy and Assistance dog. Again, We started Agility with Spirit, but with my handicaps we had to do it just for fun. He also had some Protection training but I was not interested in an IPO because he was for Therapy and Assistance for my disability. Gypsy was the one who lost or cracked 4 teeth as a puppy. She was my other Therapy dog.
I have been trying to show for several years and now I am going to try with Senshi. if he does well then good if not then no big deal. He is still going to be trained in Therapy and Assistance for me.
Like I said before, Doberman's were created as a working breed but I don't have a problem with people using them to show either. I think it is up to the owner to decide.
What is a high carrier of Vwd
 

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Discussion Starter #54


Here are too Photos of our Beloved Spirit during his Lure Course Trials for his CAX. He loved the Lure! As for Raven, she only had 4% Clotting factor in her blood. We never knew if a toe nail trim would be too short and she would stop bleeding or not for example. When you are showing you are showing the best of the best not only in looks but in health also. So We had her spay. When she was Spay the Vet had Spirit for Donor Blood on hand just in case.
 

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We were going to show Raven (our first Doberman) but after her blood test and DNA test we found out that she was a high Carrier of VwD and was then spay.
I don't understand this statement. For the vWD test by DNA the results are Clear (no copies of the gene), Carrier (1 copy of the gene), Affected (2 copies of the gene). Only dogs with 2 copies of the gene have the potential of bleeding issues due to vWD. The blood test is considered to be inaccurate and the values can be all over the map and are not diagnostic, without taking the DNA results into consideration (http://www.vetgen.com/documents/vWDfact1.pdf). There is no such thing as a "high carrier of vWD".
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I don't understand this statement. For the vWD test by DNA the results are Clear (no copies of the gene), Carrier (1 copy of the gene), Affected (2 copies of the gene). Only dogs with 2 copies of the gene have the potential of bleeding issues due to vWD. The blood test is considered to be inaccurate and the values can be all over the map and are not diagnostic, without taking the DNA results into consideration (http://www.vetgen.com/documents/vWDfact1.pdf). There is no such thing as a "high carrier of vWD".
Like I said early Raven was a Carrier (done by VETGEN DNA test) and blood test done at our Vet and College of Veterinary Medicine Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at the University of Missouri Plus VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center all said that the Clot factor in her blood was only 4%. For example- Raven was playing in our yard one day and backed into one of my rose bushes that I was trimming. She cut her thigh less than an 1/8" it bled for over 2 weeks on and off. We could not take a chance that with grooming her for show that we would cut her and she would not stop bleeding. My sister had a cocker die from a tooth pull and the Vet could not stop the bleeding. Plus like I said, when you are showing aren't you trying to show the best of the best inside and out. No matter how well your dog did in a dog show ( let's say even winning West Minister) you would never want to breed a dog that was a carrier or affected of VwD.
 

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It sounds like she was not a carrier, but instead, clinically affected, or she in fact had another ailment besides VWd that was causing her clotting factor to be low. A carrier will not have clotting problems unless there is something else going on. It simply means she could pass on one of the "affected" alleles to offspring were she to have reproduced, causing them to be carrier or affected were she bred to a carrier or affected stud.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
It sounds like she was not a carrier, but instead, clinically affected, or she in fact had another ailment besides VWd that was causing her clotting factor to be low. A carrier will not have clotting problems unless there is something else going on. It simply means she could pass on one of the "affected" alleles to offspring were she to have reproduced, causing them to be carrier or affected were she bred to a carrier or affected stud.
well then I guess that VetGen report that I have from her DNA test was WRONG as it says Carrier. And the University of Missouri Veterinary College and the VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center Dr Grigsby must be wrong. This is a disease that "Type-I
vWd occurs in many breeds of dogs and is particularly
prevalent in Doberman Pinschers, with reported prevalence
of 70%.6" according to VETGEN website, needs to be stopped.
 

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http://www.vetgen.com/canine-strategies.html

Carrier to clear breedings have no chance of producing affected dogs.

Affected to clear breedings would only produce carriers.

A dog that is a vWD clear or carrier by DNA will not have bleeding issues due to vWD. And not all affected will have bleeding issues. I have owned 2 Dobermans with vWD, one that had a history of clinical bleeding issues and one that has never had any issues.

There are many other clotting factors other than the vW one. I am not disagreeing that your dog potentially had a bleeding issue, but assuming that the DNA result was correct (lab mistakes can happen), it was not due to Von Willebrands.
 
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