[sundobe]

eace: So lately I have been looking at some breeders in the US for a potential show prospect. I have contacted a few of the bigger names to see what they had planned, if they would be willing to have a show prospect go to Canada, what terms they had for puppy owners, and a multitude of other questions.

I got back some very standard answers which typically fit into what we so often discuss here on DT, which is good. However, there were a couple that truly surprised me in the area of pricing and the failure to mention anything about a contract. The price of the puppies was $3500.00USD, which to me seems to be way out there :confused2 . Along with the failure to mention anything about a contract or conditions of buying a puppy kind of leads me to wonder if they are: *just selling a puppy for a big price tag with little to no consideration of it truly being a show propect; *they have no interest in the puppies future in regard to breeding or resale etc.. *there may be a capitalization of people's naivety and potential tunnel vision to have a puppy from a 'big name' breeder.

Either way, it makes me wonder what is going on there? Do these folks truly care about providing potential owners and puppies with the best fit and therefore the best chance of have a happy and successful future? Or are some individuals perhaps a little too tired and maybe even jaded about the whole breeding - puppy person thing to really care?eace:

 

[jdd]

Thats pretty pricey! Some people might not go into the contract until you show a real interest. I don't think I'd pay that price though. You might get as good or better puppy from someone a little less known for a for a lot less money.

 

[Murreydobe]

eace: So lately I have been looking at some breeders in the US for a potential show prospect. I have contacted a few of the bigger names to see what they had planned, if they would be willing to have a show prospect go to Canada, what terms they had for puppy owners, and a multitude of other questions.

I got back some very standard answers which typically fit into what we so often discuss here on DT, which is good. However, there were a couple that truly surprised me in the area of pricing and the failure to mention anything about a contract. The price of the puppies was $3500.00USD, which to me seems to be way out there :confused2 . Along with the failure to mention anything about a contract or conditions of buying a puppy kind of leads me to wonder if they are: *just selling a puppy for a big price tag with little to no consideration of it truly being a show propect; *they have no interest in the puppies future in regard to breeding or resale etc.. *there may be a capitalization of people's naivety and potential tunnel vision to have a puppy from a 'big name' breeder.

Either way, it makes me wonder what is going on there? Do these folks truly care about providing potential owners and puppies with the best fit and therefore the best chance of have a happy and successful future? Or are some individuals perhaps a little too tired and maybe even jaded about the whole breeding - puppy person thing to really care?eace:

While $3500 is on the high side, I do know puppies who have sold for that much who were worth every penny..I'd have to see the puppy and the pedigree before I decided if it was totally out there or not. Conversely, I know of puppies that sold for a whole lot less who were worth a whole lot more.

I think you're making the mistake of thinking just because someone shows their dogs and might have a well known name means they're a reputable breeder, and that's not always the case. It *should* be the case, but it isn't.

But you also could be jumping to conclusions that there is no contract-could be they don't get into that until later in the process, once you pass their screening and are approved for a puppy.

I can tell you in *some* cases there are major instances of breeders trying to capitalize on the naivete of the novice, coming up with terms that no one with any experience would ever consider. When I've heard about this, it usually seems to be trying to sell puppy bitches on breeder terms, wanting entire litters (plural) back in addition to a high purchase price. While giving one or maybe even sometimes two pick puppies back isn't unusual, it's outrageous to expect someone to give back entire litters. That kind of agreement is heavily weighted on the side of the seller, and should be avoided.

 

[Fitzmar Dobermans]

Thats pretty pricey! Some people might not go into the contract until you show a real interest. I don't think I'd pay that price though. You might get as good or better puppy from someone a little less known for a for a lot less money.

I agree! I think that the hard part about that is finding some of the people who only breed a litter every once in a blue moon.

 

[sorthund]

I agree, that is a lot of money, even for a show dog. I had one breeder quote me USD 2,200 for a PET puppy - way too expensive. Keep looking. PM me if you'd like my breeders info - she has a litter due this shortly.

 

[sundobe]

While $3500 is on the high side, I do know puppies who have sold for that much who were worth every penny..I'd have to see the puppy and the pedigree before I decided if it was totally out there or not. Conversely, I know of puppies that sold for a whole lot less who were worth a whole lot more.

I think you're making the mistake of thinking just because someone shows their dogs and might have a well known name means they're a reputable breeder, and that's not always the case. It *should* be the case, but it isn't.

But you also could be jumping to conclusions that there is no contract-could be they don't get into that until later in the process, once you pass their screening and are approved for a puppy.

I can tell you in *some* cases there are major instances of breeders trying to capitalize on the naivete of the novice, coming up with terms that no one with any experience would ever consider. When I've heard about this, it usually seems to be trying to sell puppy bitches on breeder terms, wanting entire litters (plural) back in addition to a high purchase price. While giving one or maybe even sometimes two pick puppies back isn't unusual, it's outrageous to expect someone to give back entire litters. That kind of agreement is heavily weighted on the side of the seller, and should be avoided.

Actually, I do not assume that a well known name is a reputable breeder. What I was doing was contacting breeders, both big names and small, to check into them further. Like I said, I asked a multitude of questions, about their plans for breeding (who, what and why), health & longevity, temperment, what they are trying to accomplish with their breeding programs, and more.

It would be logical that one would not go into the details of a contract until they passed screening. However, I would expect some kind of mention of it at the beginning, rather than just outlining how much to pay and when/where to send the deposit.

 

[Dobesanddragons]

eace Along with the failure to mention anything about a contract or conditions of buying a puppy kind of leads me to wonder if they are: *just selling a puppy for a big price tag with little to no consideration of it truly being a show propect; *they have no interest in the puppies future in regard to breeding or resale etc.. *there may be a capitalization of people's naivety and potential tunnel vision to have a puppy from a 'big name' breeder.

Either way, it makes me wonder what is going on there? Do these folks truly care about providing potential owners and puppies with the best fit and therefore the best chance of have a happy and successful future? Or are some individuals perhaps a little too tired and maybe even jaded about the whole breeding - puppy person thing to really care?eace:

I am sorry you are having such a hard time.
I don't know who you have been talking to - but I think some breeders might get lots of interest, have lots of contacts from individuals, and then those people might not always follow though. So maybe they don't take an hour or so to talk to every person like it is a for real deal? I just am not sure. I am pretty sure most breeders of standard quality Dobes do have a screening process in place.
So until you actually meet the breeders, talk to them in person or lots on the phone or e-mails and so forth you might not know the entire process of them selling a puppy from just surface level. Networking comes in handy here, knowing people with certain dogs from breeders, going to lots of shows, talking to Dobe people, Doberman e-mail lists, etc.
And from what I understand contracts are only worth the paper they are written on and the people the contracts are between. I know someone will correct me if I am wrong but even with both parties living the US - contracts can sometimes be very time consuming and hard to enforce even in the States - much less different countries.
The price thing - that is a lot of money for a young baby puppy. Personally, I think you could find a quality Dobe puppy, a solid show prospect for less from a well trusted breeder like the others have said. If they are selling Dobes for that much, someone is willing to pay that, but some aren't. I believe that is a personal thing between you and that breeder. However, most prices for show prospects are 1,500-2,500 in the US. I know there are lots of variables and lots of different numbers.
Good luck on your search. I know you probably know all of this and I know you have been searching a very long time. I am ready to see some puppy pictures from you!!!

 

[Murreydobe]

I
And from what I understand contracts are only worth the paper they are written on and the people the contracts are between. I know someone will correct me if I am wrong but even with both parties living the US - contracts can sometimes be very time consuming and hard to enforce even in the States - much less different countries.
!!!

It would be VERY difficult, if not impossible, to enforce a contract when one of the parties lived in another country.

 

[Murreydobe]

It would be logical that one would not go into the details of a contract until they passed screening. However, I would expect some kind of mention of it at the beginning, rather than just outlining how much to pay and when/where to send the deposit.

Well, it's also possible something about that "first contact" turned the breeder off, and they just quoted you a high price in an attempt to send you on down the road, figuring you weren't going to pay that much. I've seen people do that before.

Without being privy to the entire chain of events and the parties involved, it's impossible to tell. Are there breeders out there who will take advantages of novices and/or who don't care where their puppies go? Absolutely. But I don't think any of us can say for sure that's what happened here on the basis of what you've told us.

 

[gazoo02]

But you also could be jumping to conclusions that there is no contract-could be they don't get into that until later in the process, once you pass their screening and are approved for a puppy.

I agree and that was my first thought. I know for me personally, the initial contact is a standard letter giving information about health, pedigree, sire/dam, my expectations of the litter, and asking what their expectations are, and a questionnaire for me to learn more about them. Basically, I am trying to put my feelers out and it also allows the person to decide if this is something they are interested in. If it all sounds good then discussion about contracts and other stuff begins….

 

[sundobe]

And from what I understand contracts are only worth the paper they are written on and the people the contracts are between. I know someone will correct me if I am wrong but even with both parties living the US - contracts can sometimes be very time consuming and hard to enforce even in the States - much less different countries.

I am not really having a hard time. I am just find it interesting that everything form pricing through to contracts can be so all over the place, somehow (and it could very possibly be me being completely naive) I expected more consistency (for lack of a better term). Especially considering everything I have gleened from all of you experienced and savvy people over the years!

I agree about the contracts, and have stated as such to many of the breeders I have had the priveledge to communicate with over the past many months. They too have agreed, and have helped me understand that it is truly more of an agreement of trust between the two parties than anything. (at least that is how I am taking it to be)

It could very well be that these breeders quote me nothing but high prices to 'send me packing'. I guess asking questions may not be my forte, I do try to communicate as directly and honestly as possible as to make the best use out of both my time and the breeder I am communicating with. Still I have had two that continue to send pictures of puppies to me (I must have been put on some sort of list or something). I have spoken to some of the breeders I have emailed and they have not had any complaints about my initial communication (and I asked! ) Though email and the internet being what it is, I do see where the lines get crossed often to complete misunderstandings.

I should add, I just thought I would share my observations with everyone and this is totally not intended to knock any breeders or their practices at all! eace:

 

[sundobe]

I agree and that was my first thought. I know for me personally, the initial contact is a standard letter giving information about health, pedigree, sire/dam, my expectations of the litter, and asking what their expectations are, and a questionnaire for me to learn more about them. Basically, I am trying to put my feelers out and it also allows the person to decide if this is something they are interested in. If it all sounds good then discussion about contracts and other stuff begins….

Yes! That is completely reasonable to what I believe one would expect. That's why I was so suprised to receive replies like 'girl A is being bred to boy B, price for show prospect is $3500 USD, send your deposit of $XXX to....'

 

[gazoo02]

Yes! That is completely reasonable to what I believe one would expect. That's why I was so suprised to receive replies like 'girl A is being bred to boy B, price for show prospect is $3500 USD, send your deposit of $XXX to....'

If they are telling where to send your money with no other questions or discussion, I would be concerned too..


I think it was already discussed, but "big name" does not always equal reputable and can sometimes be the opposite!! But I am sure you already know this.

Good luck with your puppy search!