I think I just visited a BYB...
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It seems you are right. Too many flags. I checked the site out a bit, and if you notice, on the bottom it states "I am not involved in the horrible rumors about breeding albino dobermans" Now, most rumors don't get started by nothing. There is usally some truth to them. It also states, "We do not offer gossip!" How uncouth is that? Some of her dogs look ok. Some not. Did you see any of the dogs from the site there?? I would look someplace else none the less.
(Can you get in trouble for posting breeders names and sites here?)
(Can you get in trouble for posting breeders names and sites here?)
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The second breeder looks good enough to check into more. Her bitch is really nice looking. I would give them a call.
A few years back, I almost made the mistake of buying from one of the worst breeders in the country. I was saved, and heart broken when someone told me about the breeder. But, I'm glad I asked. A breeder with no membership to DPCA is kinda a flag. If your whole world was dedicated to this breed. You'd become a member. It's true that there are some not so great breeders there now, but things are being done to make it hard for the millers, and BYB to join.
Good Luck!
A few years back, I almost made the mistake of buying from one of the worst breeders in the country. I was saved, and heart broken when someone told me about the breeder. But, I'm glad I asked. A breeder with no membership to DPCA is kinda a flag. If your whole world was dedicated to this breed. You'd become a member. It's true that there are some not so great breeders there now, but things are being done to make it hard for the millers, and BYB to join.
Good Luck!
Thanks... I didn't see any of the dogs on her page. For all I know she could have scanned pictures from a book of Dobies and put them into a website.
Regarding getting in trouble posting breeders names and sites, I hope not. This is a forum for Doberman lovers and what good would it do if we could not share experiences with breeders? I did originally write her first and last name in my first post, but then removed it in case that wasn't cool (although it's on the site I linked). I've seen others link breeder sites before, so I assumed that was OK.
If I did something against the rules, I guess the mods of this site can remove it. I didn't do anything with malice... only to get a healthy and legitimate purebred pup.
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I commend you for doing your research and following your head. From the description you gave and some of the comments on her website she isn't somebody I would be buying a puppy from either. Your perfect puppy is out there. Keep on as you are and continue looking. Don't narrow yourself to just people you find on a google search. Go to a dog show and introduce yourself and ask around. No CA has no shortage of shows.
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This is the best possible advice. While there are *some* good breeders with website, there are also a lot of breeders with websites to stay well away from...it can be really hard for novices to tell the difference. There are also good breeders out there who don't have a website.
There are a bunch of doberman specialty shows coming up in northern CA within the next couple of months-and that's when you'll find the largest entries of all. In May, there's a specialty in Sacramento (Sacramento DPC) on May 12, and one in Vallejo (DPC of Northern CA) on May 18. In July, the Cabrillo DPC club has their specialty, it's held in Carmel. Note: the specialty shows themselves are usually held on Fridays, followed by all breed shows on Sat. and Sun., there'll be a large entry during the entire weekend. There'll also be a specialty in Reno on June 1. Any of these weekends would be a GREAT place to meet up with and network with breeders.
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Gerrie Hart is the breeder who uses the Shal Mar kennel name, and I believe she lives somewhere in the Stockton area. Is that who you talked to?
Good for you for following your gut. It's far too easy to 'rescue' a puppy from a breeder but at what price?
It took me almost 6 mos to find a breeder and even then we corresponded by email for several months before the pups were born. Our breeder had AKC paperwork on both the sire and dam for us to see, plus the health clearance paperwork on both adult dogs. (Check out the AKC bok on dog breeds from your local library or the AKC website to see exactly what the official paperwork should look like.) We were able to interact with the dam to get an idea of temperament, as well as with our breeder's other adult Dobes.
We visited our breeder and the pups twice before we discussed which pup we would be buying, and must have spent at least 90 minutes answering and asking questions. Our breeder wanted to make sure that this was the breed for us and that she was selling her pup into a loving home. She made it clear, as did the contract, that if circumstances changed, she would have 'first dibs' on the dog. She did not want her pups going to a shelter - or worse.
Cleanliness is really important - the crates should have clean, shredded newpaper lining the bottom and the food dishes should not have old food in them. If the breeder isn't interacting with the puppies, but treating them more like livestock, be prepared to walk away.
It is unfortunate that anyone can mate two dogs and call themselves a breeder. I happened to encounter one such individual on vacation last week and while it is unfair to judge someone on first appearance, I hate to think of the conditions those greyhound pups are raised in.
Good luck on your search. I think your local DPCA chapter is a good place to start. Or, you could go to an AKC-sponsored dog show and spend time chatting with the owners and perhaps find a breeder that way. That was how we found ours.
It took me almost 6 mos to find a breeder and even then we corresponded by email for several months before the pups were born. Our breeder had AKC paperwork on both the sire and dam for us to see, plus the health clearance paperwork on both adult dogs. (Check out the AKC bok on dog breeds from your local library or the AKC website to see exactly what the official paperwork should look like.) We were able to interact with the dam to get an idea of temperament, as well as with our breeder's other adult Dobes.
We visited our breeder and the pups twice before we discussed which pup we would be buying, and must have spent at least 90 minutes answering and asking questions. Our breeder wanted to make sure that this was the breed for us and that she was selling her pup into a loving home. She made it clear, as did the contract, that if circumstances changed, she would have 'first dibs' on the dog. She did not want her pups going to a shelter - or worse.
Cleanliness is really important - the crates should have clean, shredded newpaper lining the bottom and the food dishes should not have old food in them. If the breeder isn't interacting with the puppies, but treating them more like livestock, be prepared to walk away.
It is unfortunate that anyone can mate two dogs and call themselves a breeder. I happened to encounter one such individual on vacation last week and while it is unfair to judge someone on first appearance, I hate to think of the conditions those greyhound pups are raised in.
Good luck on your search. I think your local DPCA chapter is a good place to start. Or, you could go to an AKC-sponsored dog show and spend time chatting with the owners and perhaps find a breeder that way. That was how we found ours.
no comment.
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I think you made the right decision to keep looking.
I don't know too much about the Wildwind lady, she's a fairly new breeder. I see she's taking a champion bitch to a pointed sire who's a champion producer. Both dogs are OFA'd, so that's a start. I'd want to know what other health testing had been done on both. The sire is almost 9, so that's a good thing in terms of longevity.
I don't know if she has any upcoming litters, but you might want to contact Darlene Young at Darwin dobermans. She's very reputable, very committed to health testing, etc. http://www.darwindobes.com/ If she doesn't have a litter planned in the near future, she probably could refer you to someone who does.
Gerrie Hart has been breeding forever--she was in Sacramento years ago and moved to the Stockton area after that.
She has that disclaimer about not being affiliated with albino breeders because several of her breeding ended up in the hands of albino breeders and are now featured in a good many albino pedigrees.
Considering she asked you virtually no questions it's easy to see how this happened. She doesn't screen prospective homes very well. She sort of about a half step up from a full blown BYB. She occasionally breeds a finishable dog and she continues to show but I've always sort of suspected that those finishable dogs and the ShalMar champions are more an accident than by intention.
I'm sure she's exactly who she said she was. And yes, all the stuff you mention that you saw in her house are red flags. I'd probably go looking elsewhere (well, I would for sure since when I'm in the market for a puppy I'm looking for a show prospect and Gerrie isn't my idea of a show breeder).
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Does anyone have any first hand dealings with Gerrie Hart? I have the sister to that dog and have been dealing with Gerrie since the pup was 5 weeks old I visited the pup every few days untill I could take her home at nine weeks. Gerrie is rough around the edges but a very nice person once you get to know her. Did you ask to see any paper work or the mom she never showed me anything until I asked. My pup is in handling class and I only get great comments about her. Also my boss who shows and breeds weims says she is a well put together pup. To add I have heard bad things about her and if you ask her about it she will tell the truth about everything good or bad
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Sorry can't find any good pics that are on the computer
Thanks for the input... you and everyone else.
I don't mean to bash her or anything but I had to put down what I saw and see if anyone else considered it normal.. or even reasonable.
She did seem nice and until we went out there to see the pup, I felt pretty good from the email exchanges we had (like when I asked her why she wasn't an DPCA member). My skepticism came from the conditions I saw as well as the lack of info I got while I was there. Admittedly, I could have asked more questions... I think though that a breeder would be proud to show the lineage of her breedings... and would volunteer that info.
Did you ever meet the sire or dam of your dog? Were they at that house? Did you go to the same house I did? Did you receive AKC paperwork? Did you sign any contract?
Thanks.
No worries... even with the eyes closed, that Dobie is beautiful.
Another thing I noticed is that the pup we saw appeared to have "flat feet". Instead of standing on her fingers like most dogs do, she was flat footed. Thats as best as I can describe it. Gerrie said that it was due to her being caged so much lately. Doesn't that mean the pup isn't getting nearly enough exercise???
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Yes I did get A 2 year health with a replacement if anything goes bad. Yes I did see the mom and I see her sometimes when I get my pups ears posted. I did receive AKC papers. I saw the pup you are interested in the day she received it back and it looked bad. She said the people kept it in a crate the whole time they had her.
go with your gut feeling and listen to the majority of people on this forum. they know what they are talking about. someone here did try to warn me about luna's breeder, but i just couldn't stomach the fact that i had already put down a "non-refundable" deposit; i felt foolish. i love luna to death and am glad she ended up in my home, rather than a potentially irresponsible home. but the thought of her breeder angers me and i hate to have supported that type of person/breeder.
you shouldn't have to ask for any paperwork. and the pups should be comfortable in their environment. if you felt it wasn't right, search further. i will respond to your myspace message with further details, but i just wanted to reply to your post as a start.
you shouldn't have to ask for any paperwork. and the pups should be comfortable in their environment. if you felt it wasn't right, search further. i will respond to your myspace message with further details, but i just wanted to reply to your post as a start.
Everyone,
I spoke with Gerrie at great length this morning. Someone sent her this thread and she was obviously very upset.
She assured me that the small crate the pup we went to see was in was not the crate she lives in. She said that was a temporary one in the front room so we could come visit. She also sent me a picture of the larger crate she lives in.
She assured me that the crate that the 1 yr old just visiting pup in the entry way is only where he sleeps and that his owners brought that so he'd have somewhere familiar to sleep.
She was very upset with the term "filthy" that I used. I suppose this is a varying term depending on who you're asking. I will clarify by saying that I did not see any dogs in feces or urine. She said the house had not been kept up as she had been ill.
She said that she didn't ask us many questions because I had answered most of them and email and that she got a read on me that I'm a good person. Whether she still believes that, I sort of doubt.
She said that she didn't show us any papers on the pup because we were just meeting the pup... not officially buying her yet.
As I stated in my original post, I could have asked more questions and probably should have. I just assumed that the breeder would pull out this information as we are first-timers and she's supposed to be the expert.
Although I wrote exactly what my wife and I saw, it may not have been the whole story.
I will reiterate that the puppies we saw were lovable and did give kisses. They didn't appear to be mistreated. My concern was the size of the crates and the cleanliness and that has been addressed above.
I also stated and I will reiterate that I didn't mean this to bash her by any means. I'm just trying to get information as to what others experience. Finding a puppy is a tough thing and I want to make sure they will be a happy and healthy member of our family for years to come.
It is now obvious from my email and phone exchanges with Gerri that she does very much love her Dobermans.
I spoke with Gerrie at great length this morning. Someone sent her this thread and she was obviously very upset.
She assured me that the small crate the pup we went to see was in was not the crate she lives in. She said that was a temporary one in the front room so we could come visit. She also sent me a picture of the larger crate she lives in.
She assured me that the crate that the 1 yr old just visiting pup in the entry way is only where he sleeps and that his owners brought that so he'd have somewhere familiar to sleep.
She was very upset with the term "filthy" that I used. I suppose this is a varying term depending on who you're asking. I will clarify by saying that I did not see any dogs in feces or urine. She said the house had not been kept up as she had been ill.
She said that she didn't ask us many questions because I had answered most of them and email and that she got a read on me that I'm a good person. Whether she still believes that, I sort of doubt.
She said that she didn't show us any papers on the pup because we were just meeting the pup... not officially buying her yet.
As I stated in my original post, I could have asked more questions and probably should have. I just assumed that the breeder would pull out this information as we are first-timers and she's supposed to be the expert.
Although I wrote exactly what my wife and I saw, it may not have been the whole story.
I will reiterate that the puppies we saw were lovable and did give kisses. They didn't appear to be mistreated. My concern was the size of the crates and the cleanliness and that has been addressed above.
I also stated and I will reiterate that I didn't mean this to bash her by any means. I'm just trying to get information as to what others experience. Finding a puppy is a tough thing and I want to make sure they will be a happy and healthy member of our family for years to come.
It is now obvious from my email and phone exchanges with Gerri that she does very much love her Dobermans.
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I think who ever sent this email to the breeder without at least first telling the OP they did it is VERY rude. Tattle tail! Shame on you!
The BigChu,
I hope things work out for you. I would trust what you think is right.
The BigChu,
I hope things work out for you. I would trust what you think is right.
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