Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

"I don't want a show dog; I just want a pet."

105K views 213 replies 59 participants last post by  OldSchool 
#1 · (Edited)
I had to share this here. What a wonderful post about the reason great breeders are important. Copied below from the Ruffly Speaking blog.

__________________________________________


I don’t want a show dog; I just want a pet.
by Joanna Kimball on July 13, 2010



This is one of the most pervasive sentiments that puppy buyers, especially families, express when they're looking for a dog. What they really mean, of course, is that they don't want a show BREEDER – don't want to pay the high price they think show breeders charge, don't want to go through the often-invasive interview process, and think that they're getting a better deal or a real bargain because they can get a Lab for $300 or a Shepherd for $150.

I want you to change your mind. I want you to not only realize the benefits of buying a show-bred dog, I want you to INSIST on a show-bred dog. And I want you to realize that the cheap dog is really the one that's the rip-off. And then I want you to go be obnoxious and, when your workmate says she's getting a puppy because her neighbor, who raises them, will give her one for free, or when your brother-in-law announces that they're buying a goldendoodle for the kids, I want you to launch yourself into their solar plexus and steal their wallets and their car keys.

Here's why:

If I ask you why you want a Maltese, or a Lab, or a Leonberger, or a Cardigan, I would bet you're not going to talk about how much you like their color. You're going to tell me things about personality, ability (to perform a specific task), relationships with other animals or humans, size, coat, temperament, and so on. You'll describe playing ball, or how affectionate you've heard that they are, or how well they get along with kids.

The things you will be looking for aren't the things that describe just "dog"; they'll be the things that make this particular breed unique and unlike other breeds.

That's where people have made the right initial decision – they've taken the time and made the effort to understand that there are differences between breeds and that they should get one that at least comes close to matching their picture of what they want a dog to be.

Their next step, tragically, is that they go out and find a dog of that breed for as little money and with as much ease as possible.

You need to realize that when you do this, you're going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the "Audi" plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a '98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little.

It is no bargain.

Those things that distinguish the breed you want from the generic world of "dog" are only there because somebody worked really hard to get them there. And as soon as that work ceases, the dog, no matter how purebred, begins to revert to the generic. That doesn't mean you won't get a good dog – the magic and the blessing of dogs is that they are so hard to mess up, in their good souls and minds, that even the most hideously bred one can still be a great dog – but it will not be a good Shepherd, or good Puli, or a good Cardigan. You will not get the specialized abilities, tendencies, or talents of the breed.

If you don't NEED those special abilities or the predictability of a particular breed, you should not be buying a dog at all. You should go rescue one. That way you're saving a life and not putting money in pockets where it does not belong.

If you want a purebred and you know that a rescue is not going to fit the bill, the absolute WORST thing you can do is assume that a name equals anything. They really are nothing more than name plates on cars. What matters is whether the engineering and design and service department back up the name plate, so you have some expectation that you're walking away with more than a label.

Keeping a group of dogs looking and acting like their breed is hard, HARD work. If you do not get the impression that the breeder you're considering is working that hard, is that dedicated to the breed, is struggling to produce dogs that are more than a breed name, you are getting no bargain; you are only getting ripped off.
 
See less See more
#208 ·
Good read thanks for sharing


BSent from Petguide.com Free App
I find I always wanted the show dog! I buy the show dog, always Champ sired and lors of time the Dam too is a Champ, and I get a pet. HOWEVER, they have always !been the best of temperment, and are smart, smart smart I 've learned a lot about dobies , and why and where they are a skoche off. So If I get or breed a champ... what a plus!!! BUT, to me the line is important , and breeder integrity is foremost. Out of all the breeders of the dogs I have had, only one breeder had no integrity , a con from the get go. I failed to research him. So buy the best, research the breeder, not just the dogs you like, and you won't go wrong. And always improve the breed.always, if you want to breed.
 
#4 ·
I had an interesting conversation with my neighbor yesterday. I told her Lana was in heat and I had another couple of weeks before life returned to normal. She asked if I was going to breed her. I said "No, I don't really want to show her and besides I was allowed not to crop the ears so her chances of finishing are slim". The neighbor asked why I hadn't spayed her. I said I had promised the breeder I would keep her intact until she could get a repeat breeding successfully with quality bitch puppies (tragic story behind this). I added that I might keep her intact for health reasons. Then she said "but she is so beautiful and there are so many other ugly dobes getting bred, why not have a litter?". I gave a normal response but the clincher was this:

"She looks so healthy and well-balanced." "That's why I bought a top quality bitch from a show breeder." She said "in horses, the conformation mare often costs way more in vet bills the 'more they approach the standard' ".

I was stunned - I said our standard drives toward better health - is that not the case with horses? She said no. She has been in horses since she was born - many wins, prizes for performance horses - dressage, western something or other - herself, husband, family and the children.

Has anyone else come across this?

I was wondering if this is part of why buyers prefer to pay big money from crap puppies from K-tal et al?
 
#5 ·
If she was referring to the halter horse world, big fat YEP.

I would disagree, however, with her phrase "the more they approach the standard."

What has happened with a lot of horse breeds is what has happened with the split between working GSDs and show GSDs, and yes, there are fifteen hundred pound QHs bred and fed strictly for halter classes that are every bit as crippled up as those hobbled GSDs gaiting around the ring on their pasterns.

As in everything else, in looking for a great horse breeder, you look for health testing, pedigree research, the purpose and vision behind the pairing, and appropriate titling for the breed--which should always include performance titles, IMO.

A horse is an awful big expensive lawn ornament, otherwise.
 
#6 ·
I hate the 'I just want a pet,' mentality.

(My family breeds a certain breed of pony and we often get 'why does it cost so much? It's a pony! from people)

Being 'just a pet' is often the highest calling a dog can have.

People by and far ask so much of their 'pets':

Pets are running buddies, couch companions, playing with the kids, curling up in bed with them at night. Members of the family.

Being 'just a pet' there is often so much more expected of a dog because they are welcomed into lives and families and asked to be well-tempered and loving, sharing space and living with them day in and day out.

I feel like people don't understand the demands that they make on dogs - take for granted they are bred to be companions.

Until they have a badly bred one. Whose temperament is unsound and bites a their child. Or who gets horribly sick and dies far too young.

And then there's heartache:

My aunt got a lab from a pet store. 120lbs, white, by 18 months Trixie was severely dysplastic. She ended up putting him down before his 4th birthday because he was barely able to walk and riddled with arthritis. It broke her heart. This was the dog who she had had since he was a puppy and saw her through a divorce and start of a new relationship and getting back on her feet and moving forward with her life again.

Next time around she did her homework and she and her husband made sure they bought from a good lab breeder who health tested his dogs.

Friend of mine's family rescued a dog from the shelter. Dogs temperament was not stable. Ended up putting her on doggy prozac. She couldn't be trusted around people that were not the immediate family. They loved her to bits. But she was a hard dog to handle. Next time around they went to a breeder who health tested and bred dogs for stable temperaments and good health with all the clearances.

And not to say that every byb or rescue dog is bad or will end up sick or unstable and causing their owners sadness and grief.

But people need to realize what they ask of 'just a pet' and they owe it to themselves - and the dogs - to do their best when selecting 'just a pet.'

This probably isn't quite coherent I apologize. Something that's been ruminating in my head a little bit (and I love Ruffly Speaking's blog and photography, been a fan for a while).
 
#7 ·
I hate the 'I just want a pet,' mentality.

(My family breeds a certain breed of pony and we often get 'why does it cost so much? It's a pony! from people)

Being 'just a pet' is often the highest calling a dog can have.

People by and far ask so much of their 'pets':

Pets are running buddies, couch companions, playing with the kids, curling up in bed with them at night. Members of the family.

Being 'just a pet' there is often so much more expected of a dog because they are welcomed into lives and families and asked to be well-tempered and loving, sharing space and living with them day in and day out.

I feel like people don't understand the demands that they make on dogs - take for granted they are bred to be companions.

Until they have a badly bred one. Whose temperament is unsound and bites a their child. Or who gets horribly sick and dies far too young.
So well said! Worth repeating.

Abby, I will sticky this in the Breeders section. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
#12 ·
Good article, but it should also emphasize working lines as well. Since coming on this site I have changed my way of looking for a puppy, but it also got me thinking, could there be trainers that are the equivalent to BYBs out there. I have been searching in my area and there are people that advertise they are in the Schutzhund clubs and throw out the words "military and police training" but merely teach biting and forget about the tracking and other qualifications. And just because they belong to a club doesn't mean they train your pup to pass these rigorous tests. There are others so many, and in a town in the middle of nowhere it is difficult to find good trainers. Search for past students and find out if they got titled or compete in trials and so forth or you are just going to someone who will ruin your relationship with your dog. You wouldn't send your kid to any school that has a website, so make sure you are training your dog with the best too. If anyone here knows of a good site to find quality trainers, please share. Thanks,
 
#15 ·
And at the same time if i may excersize my opinion, while i agree, i feel as though every dog (dobe, or not mix mutt whatever) deserves a good home. I am currently in the process of finding homes for some small 6 breed mutt puppies. They may have health problems they may not, my 4 breed rat mix ( mind you these puppies were gifted, no money asked) has been in best of health since we got her. Sheer Luck i suppose. but to chalk it off like some of these animals should be discarded put down or forced to go to a shelter (where theyll end up euthanized anyways) Just isnt fair.

Now like i've said in the past, i happen to have a Doberman, Who has defects, they may be from inbreeding, they may be Z factor, it could be a mix further back in the bloodline. who knows. What I do know, is in the future, having done research yes if im looking for a "Pedigree doberman" i will be turning a blind eye to BYBs and finding a reputable one with papers registration the whole 9yds. why? because i might just get lucky with this one and have no issues. or god forbids she could keel over at age 3.

In any case i come from the belief any dog you acquire should be recognized as a family memeber first and whatever else you want second. just my .02
 
#17 ·
I couldn't agree more. I have rescued and volunteered and fostered countless dogs. I have a two year old boxer and now I am on a search for another working breed...the Doberman. I never realized what a well bred and properly socialized dog looked like until Ali. She is strong, confident and a pleasure to train and work with......on the opposite end I have also dealt with a beautiful Catahoula with severe separation anxiety that could never have a stable temperment because of her bad breeding. It does make a difference and the money spent on a purchase of a good dog makes a difference that will last the lifetime of your dog.
 
#18 ·
Can we drop the assumption of people looking for the "cheapest" dog and replace it with "affordable". Do breeders really assume the people who are spending $150-$300 on a dog have $2,000 to spend on a dog? I have a 2 year old doberman who I purchased from a breeder recommended on this forum and paid over $2,000 for him, and this was the "cheapest" puppy I could find from a "quality" breeder. That being said he was born with a genetic defect (it was something taken care of with minor surgery and won't affect his life moving forward.) I love my dobe and would love to get him a playmate but I don't have $2,000 to spend and probably won't any time soon.

The issue with people going to "back yard" breeders isn't that they want the cheapest dog (they would get a free dog from craigslist or the pound) but because the "best" breeders cost as much as a car. If you want to cut out back yard breeders consider reducing the price of your puppies to something affordable to the average american family, not just those who are well off.

As for the "used car" comparison. I'm not sure of the wealth of those who read these forums but I don't know of many people who can afford to buy the latest greatest car. Actually, it was just reported that new cars are not un-affordable to middle class american's.

If you want to be the Audi or BMW of dog breeders and price your puppies accordingly that is fine. But you can't be mad at the guy who buys a 1999 chevy because your prices aren't affordable.

If you want to stop back yard breeding be part of the solution. Don't say "hey, do your research and you'll see mine is better and by the way i want $2000 more than the other guy." All you have to do to see this is faulty logic is go the the grocery store. Put out bananas for 50 cents a pound and people will still buy the $3 a lb fruit loops.

As someone once told me "if money is the issue, it's the only issue." I firmly believe that if reputable breeders were priced competitively with backyardbreeders you would put them out of business. But instead you leave consumers with the "I'm to expensive for you so you have no other option" and then scold them for it.
 
#22 ·
Ok so let's talk "affordable"

If you think breeders charging $2000 per puppy are making money then I hate to inform you, you are wrong.

Good breeders who spend time in the breed researching, who buy quality dogs, who title their dogs, who pay for all the health tests and clearances and then search for the right mate for their bitch and pay that stud fee + all vet costs and then produce a litter (+ vet costs) and then crop their dogs (a good cropper = $$) are not making money off every litter. At best they might break even. (Unless they happen to have like 15 puppies a litter each time and then they might actually make a little something - I kid, I kid).

At best.

Because the good breeders. The breeders who breed for the betterment and love of the breed. They aren't pumping out puppy litter after puppy litter and breeding their dog to their bitch every time just because it happens to live in the same house.

Those breeders - the backyard breeders - the ones with the "affordable" puppies are the ones that are actually making money. No health tests or clearances, haven't gone to the trouble of titling their dogs (oh but AKC Champion Lineage like 4 generations back!) just toss them together and wait for puppies. More than likely won't crop (cause that costs money) and sell said cute puppies to the first people who line up at the door.

Hey look people will buy. We made some cash. Let's make more puppies! (Relatively quick and fast turn around).

And as far as affordability? I have seen KNOWN backyard breeders/puppy millers (the ones where every. single. person. here. is. in. agreement. - and that shocking fact should tell you something) charge just as much as the quality breeders.

Because they can. Because they know that's what the going rate for a doberman is. And they count on people being too uniformed and willing to just give out the money. (Whereas others would see the red flags and head for the hills).

(And then the 'affordable' ones who charge less get jumped because it must be a deal - instead of thinking wait why is this dog so much cheaper?)

I would almost argue that the backyard breeders undercut the quality breeders.

And they do in the long run.

Because this isn't a breed of labs and poodles (though they have their own problems) Dobermans are a breed on the BSL list. They have a reputation. And every Doberman owner should be working against that. Should be an ambassador for the breed. - That is what the quality breeders are hoping for when they match up prospective owners with puppies and do screenings. No one wants to breed an agressive dog who attacks another dog (or worse a child).

When you go with a backyard breeder you are not choosing a 99 chevy over a BMW. You are getting a BMW with Nissan parts (and no not the ones that you can minimally maintain and it runs forever) inside of it.

And yes I know not everyone can just drop 2K on a puppy. I'm a broke, broke college student and saving bit by bit as I learn more about the breed. I'm doing my research.

How many times have you seen people come onto the forum I'M LOOKING FOR A PUPPY! And get all annoyed when they are told to do more research, you might have to wait, good breeders have a waiting list etc. And they won't and you see them turn around and buy a back yard bred dog or one from a puppy mill. It's not a question of being well off. It's a question of instant gratification and wanting something and not wanting to wait.

I'm pretty sure parts of this may not have made sense (pre-coffee) but please do realize it's not about 'affordability' and not as simple as 'just drop your prices to compete with the backyard breeders.' It's about the betterment of the breed.

And we should be working on putting all the backyarders and puppymillers out of business instead of crying that they are more affordable than the quality breeders.
 
#19 ·
As an example, how is it more affordable to purchase a dog for $300.00 to then have to turn around and pay around $4,000 to $6,000 for TPO? Or wait until it's done growing and pay around $5,000 each hip?

How about the cost to treat DCM? The cheapest common dobe problem would be probably thyroid, which still isn't cheap when you factor in the blood tests. Only the med is pretty affordable.

That is just considering physical problems, what about temperament? How much for being sued for medical cost, time off work, emotional damage after a dog attack? Or, your dog injures another dog? Possibly up in the tens of thousands.

It isn't cheap to purchase a cheap dog. If I'm going to spent that kind of money it is going to be for a dog that I saved it's life, not one that I gave money to a breeder for.
 
#33 ·
1) The first post brought up the car comparison "You need to realize that when you do this, you're going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the "Audi" plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a '98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little. " I saw them in a few others, but this is the post I originally replied to so I stuck with it. I must admit I skipped over most of the posts involving horses.

2) I purchased my puppy from a recommended breeder on this website and paid over $2,000. I'm just bringing in another side of the discussion. I'm not trying to sound mean/attacking/rude and apologies if I read that way.
 
#27 ·
Justduff. Try again.

http://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/5975-cost-having-litter-puppies.html

Also posting this because its better than the other one I think... but my internet is acting like the page is dead. Hoping its just me.
Cost of breeding a doberman litter

And no one. No one. No one. NO ONE ethical would ever breed a bitch 8 times in any circumstance. Half that is generally considered too much. Most health testing needs to be completed at least before each litter.

Also that thread is nearly 6 years old, and things are more expensive now.

I want to say so much more, but actually read about the costs instead of guessing first. Then we'll talk.
 
#37 ·
I'm going to use this link to talk about the price, the other one was in non-US currency and I didn't want to do conversions.

I put the following numbers into a spread sheet based on what was listed in the link. Some are still a guess as some of the prices were not complete: IE Formula was given in a per package price but didn't say how many packages were needed.

reason cost
vWB 135
thyroid 140
heart 100
cardiac 60
hip 230
eye 57
liver 100
vet 100
stud 1500
flight 600
breed test 240
welping box 300
kit 120
birth/c-section 1000
formula 150
dew claws 20/puppy
register 22/puppy
shots 25/puppy
crop 250/puppy

The only one in this list I wouldn't include in the base price of a puppy is a c-section (unless you know for sure you will be having one). I am of the belief it is unfair to charge for something that "might" happen and then pocket the cash if it doesn't, yes I'm aware this is how insurance works and I hate the concept.

This time the only costs I made 1 time were (vWB, cardiac, hip, tests and a whelping box), these were listed in the post as only needing to be done once.

I also allocated an extra $200 per puppy as misc costs, the more puppies you have the more costs you have.

Based on this, not including C-Section, assuming a bitch has 1 litter and all costs are associated to the puppies had.

8 puppies would incur a cost of $996 per puppy, total of $7,968 for the litter.
6 puppies would incur a cost of $866.75 per puppy, toal $6934 for the litter.
I guessed a litter of 6 would be $800 per puppy.

That being said the post above the says "In my conversations with people that are interested in breeding Dobermans, I advise that at the very least they are likely going to need approximately $5,000 set aside to cover expenses, both expected and unexpected."

I have allocated over $5,000 per litter, with the flexibility of it to cost more based on the number of puppies you have. I did look up breeders listed on this site to get a feel for how many puppies come in a litter. The most I saw was 12, in a litter of 12 the cost per puppy is 1254.5.

All that being said lets say my estimates are wrong and add $300 per puppy to cover additional costs (that's $500 extra per puppy I'm adding for costs I don't know about). This would make a litter of 12 cost $1500 per puppy, and a litter of 6, which is closer to average, cost ~$1100 per puppy.

Again I'm not saying a quality litter should sell for $150 per puppy, I do realize that doesn't even cover the cost of the cropping of ears. My debate has been $2,000+ is over priced, using the article provided by you I think my point is valid.
 
#29 ·
Well I don't know of any bitches bred from reputable/ethical breeders that are bred EIGHT times. I would say max would be 4 (usually only if other litters were 1-4 puppies.) Most do 1 or 2 litters, occasionally a bitch will have three, and even more rare 4. But I think the average would be 15 puppies in a life time for a bitch. If that.

Showing/working sports is so you get a DOBERMAN. Not just a random Black (red, fawn, blue) and Tan dog. They are doing this to better the breed and ensure they aren't bias by saying "oh yeah my dog is gorgeous!" or "My dogs are super protective!" They are getting an outsiders opinion to prove their opinions are true. Yes it's a hobby but it is way more than that. Most people wouldn't be showing their dogs if they didn't want to provide a quality dog to consumers.
 
#32 ·
I want a pet. Yeah, I'll be looking for a likely obedience prospect, but my dogs are first and foremost pets. I'm either going to "bite the bullet" pricewise, and buy from an ethical breeder who titles, health tests, and will be there for me with support for the life of my dog, OR, I will go with a rescue. Besides, in the long run, the purchase price is the least of what you'll spend on a dog in it's lifetime.
 
#39 ·
I agree the up front cost is the least of what I'll spend. However, baring injury/health condition, it is the largest lump sum you will have to pay. If breeders offered a payment plan the price debate would probably lessen.

Also, I forgot to mention 2 things on this.

1) I spoke with a breeder who wanted 1/2 the price as a down payment. This is fine, however the down payment was non-refundable and didn't guarantee you a puppy. If not enough puppies were born you would be placed on a waiting list for the next litter. This makes me feel like breeders are out for profit. And yes this breeder is a breeder recommended on this forum.

2) Supply and Demand. All the breeders I researched, none of them had trouble selling their litters and most had to turn potential buyers away. While this does refute my reasoning that people can't afford it (yes I'm presenting an argument against myself now), it's back to the "if someone wants a doberman they will get one". If not enough quality doberman are available people will move to the next breeder. Even if quality doberman dropped to a price of $150, there wouldn't be enough, and people would still buy from backyard breeders to find their pet. Most people aren't patient, and yes I waited 4 years before I decided to buy a puppy and waited 8 months for my breeder to have a litter.
 
#41 ·
I believe (hope) I talked someone out of breeding their "great" dog not long ago using very similar figures and further pointing out that "planning to show their dog" likely will not up the pups price so they would never break even on on a litter of z factored pups that anyone who knows anything about Dobes will not want anyway. Besides the bitch is too young to breed IMO.
 
#49 ·
I just want to say that I, for one, have no problem with good breeders making some profit. Now, if they were living in a million dollar mansion and flying off for vacations in the Cayman Islands every other month, that would be a little much.

I'm just saying that, like Fitzmar has been saying, we are paying for a lot more than just the puppy. We are also getting all of the breeder's time, expertise, support and flat out love for the breed. They are not getting rich. I have been to my breeder's house, and over the years there have been changes made, but even those changes are all for the dogs.

If my few hundred "extra" dollars (if they happen to be extra that litter) help offset some costs of other litters, so that my breeder can continue to try to improve the breed I love, well then I am A-OK with that! I think she deserves it. :)
 
#51 ·
Meadowcat has the right of it.

justduff, let me give you a little perspective. i purchased a well-bred boy out of two Triadel dogs. he was the littlest of his litter, and as a result he wasn't quite fully developed. after various vet visits for accidents and whatnot - almost all of which were covered by VPI - he ended up in kidney failure at 10.5 months of age.

that was back in December. VPI covered none of it, and I just finished paying for his bills last month. diagnosis at two different hospitals (our local vet and U Penn) and support care for a week cost us $5000 out of our own pocket. thankfully, we went through a good breeder who gave us emotional support and refunded the purchase price. this allowed me to pay off the remainder of his vet bills.

a BYB will not provide any sort of refund, and probably won't provide any sort of emotional support in the event of the loss of the dog. they usually wash their hands of the pup once it's no longer in their possession. i can't imagine going through that with a bad breeder. can you?
 
#52 ·
Meadowcat has the right of it.

a BYB will not provide any sort of refund, and probably won't provide any sort of emotional support in the event of the loss of the dog. they usually wash their hands of the pup once it's no longer in their possession. i can't imagine going through that with a bad breeder. can you?
I can indeed imagine it and could no doubt write a book on it. My son bought Duece from a breeder in Georgia based on a beautiful picture of puppies and a great web site. The "reputable breeder" would never ever ship one of his dogs and insisted on hand delivering him so he could do a home check, before allowing just anyone to to get one of "his babies" and my son did not have to pay for the pup until it arrived. Sounds good right? This guy made it clear that if he did not like what he saw he would not leave the pup.

I knew the moment I saw this guy that it was bad.... Dude had a small car full of pups of several different breeds and was for all intents and purposes a traveling puppymiller. But since he was being so magnanimous :rolleyesww: as to allow my 21 year old son to get one of his great pups given our "small yard" I kept my mouth shut and let my son do his thing. I have regretted it ever since.

Duece had CDA, dancing dobermans, vWD affected, Cryptorchidism, and was diagnosed with DCM and CHF by 2 years old..... When this "reputable breeder" was contacted he really wanted to make this whole thing right (are you ready?) by breeding Duece back to his own Mother and giving my son pick of the litter. :mad:
 
#53 ·
Another thing that often happens in breedings amongst breeders are co-ownerships with each other, and even if you have a litter you might owe another breeder one or two puppies or whatever the terms of your agreement might be. I've had 4 litters that way, and I didn't receive the proceeds from ALL of the puppies. Now, I guess you can say hey, that's my fault, I got into that agreement and knew it was going to happen.

I've had 11 litters since 1996. I can honestly say I made a little money on ONE of those litters. I've lost on every other one, sometimes quite a lot of money. The little that I made on the one litter surely came nowhere close to covering all of the other losses.

It's easy to sit there and say that if you're a breeder producing puppies, you must be making money. If you're not doing it, you just don't know. From a business standpoint, I should be out of business. Real businesses don't operate at a loss as long as breeders do. We do it because we love it or because we're idiots, I'm not really sure which some days! And it's always a real treat when someone comes along and tells us we should reduce our already losing price and lose some more. It really makes one feel warm and appreciated. Not.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Here is something else that most don't think about.

Dobermans take up space. Breeders can't live in tiny, inexpensive houses or apartments. We generally have to buy homes with space and with property, so we have to spend more to live in order to be breeders. I can't live where I want because I can't legally have my dogs there any longer. We have to seek out counties or townships where we can legally be, and that usually means a longer commute and more gas/higher cost for us to get to our real jobs - it's not like there is public transportation out here. I literally live in an area where I don't want to so that I can continue to have my dogs and be a breeder. That often means higher property taxes for breeders, too.

And then we have to buy vehicles in which to transport dogs and puppies around. We might want a little vehicle that is great on mileage, but our dogs won't fit in them. The vehicles cost us more and the insurance probably costs us more. There are times I'm taking 4 or 5 dogs to a vet at a time, not like the usual pet owner travelling with one dog.

It's stuff like that which many of you also don't take into account.
 
#56 ·
This is from another forum which coincidentally is having a similar conversation, I thought it was a very good answer:

"Whenever this discussion comes up there seems to be a real blur in the lines between what is and is not acceptable expenses when trying to decide if someone makes money breeding.

Can you make money on a single litter? If all you take into account is the specific expenses for that litter, ie stud fee, pregnancy/pup related vet costs, food bill, you have a good sized litter, they are healthy, they sell easily, etc then yes, of course you can make a profit on that litter. And that is where the people who want to believe all breeders are "making it big" want to come from. They want to pretend any other costs, such as the purchase of the mother, training, titles, health checks, etc to make the pups actually worth buying for the price you are asking, marketing, follow up, replacement costs for any pups with issues down the road, "fixing" a pup that is returned all f'd up, etc doesn't exist and can't be counted against the profit made on the litter. Nor can the loss on that last litter where the breeder spent thousands on an AI, there were complications, a few more thousand on vet bills, and in the end barely saved their female. Or lost her.

Look at things from an even bigger picture though, and you have to take into account the following when deciding if someone is making money breeding. If it's a business, then all your business expenses should be counted. And I'm not touching on every single thing, just a few main categories.

1) purchase of the dogs used in the program
2) money lost when a dog held back or purchased doesn't pan out (initial cost, food bills, vet bills, training bills, trial bills, etc) or dies, or is stolen by that co-owner you thought you could trust, or ...
3) the costs on all the litters that didn't work out (bitch didn't take, complications that resulted in large vet bills, litters that died, etc)
4) costs to maintain (feed, vet, train, title, etc) the dogs used in the program (pups didn't come out of thin air and the titles, health checks etc contribute to the sale price of the pups)
5) the down the road costs, ie time spent supporting a buyer, cost in replacing a dog, $ spend fixing a dog who is returned all f'd up by the buyer etc

There are more costs, but these are some of the main categories. Some people will argue "but you would have done all that anyway for your hobby". Reality is most breeders I know, who breed on any sort of regular basis, would not own and maintain the number of dogs they have if they weren't breeding. They would have 1-3 dogs that they were training/competing with for their hobby, they wouldn't have 5, 10, 15, etc dogs and the thousands of dollars in vet, food, training, etc bills that come with those dogs.

IMO there are 3 ways to make money breeding dogs

1) breed responsibly but in high enough quantity that the good outweighs the bad, and the small profit from most of the litters, combined with doing a lot of litters, adds up to be a large enough profit to actually talk about. This is how some of the breeders in Europe do it (some of the bigger name ones) and a few in the US also do it.
2) have a female that is mainly your pet/competition dog, ie you are a hobbyist who does all the training, trialing, etc, and you decide to do a litter, which works out without major complications. Which the majority of litters do.
3) don't bother with most of the expenses part of things, ie the health checks, training, trialing, take short cuts on vet care or skip it all together, feed crap food, and pup out puppies. Also your selection criteria is strictly the dogs ability to whelp and raise litters successfully, so soon you have a number of good (from a strictly it can be born and raised POV) producers. Since they skip all the up front costs their price per pup will (should) be a little lower, but their profit margin will be much higher."
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top