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Lol @ John.

Always love reading your posts. You are passionate in your opinions and pretty straight forward. You tell it like it is and I like that.

I don't mind a spirited discussion as long as it's civil and respectful. I always try to look at both sides of a conversation.


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I so agree! I enjoy reading John's posts about McCoy. I've learned a lot on this forum as a new owner of a Doberman.

And I appreciate Bluedobie understanding that everyone has different experiences and expectations, and that sometimes people (breeders AND buyers) learn and try to do better.
 

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You say she health tests, and you want us to prove that she doesn't? How about you post your pup's pedigree, so that we can cross-reference the OFA website, and see what testing they've had for ourselves?

Hint: there are no Doberman Pinschers with "Shady Grove" as a part of their name listed.
Geez, I said I'd walk away from this thread. I'm my own worst enemy sometimes. 馃檮 But I'm certain that I never asked anyone here to prove she doesn't health test. I stated that she provided the genetic testing on the parents of my pup when I asked because I wanted a healthy dog. Or as relatively healthy as can can be predicted. I know the DCM and VwB of his parents. There's no reason to put up his pedigree here for several reasons: 1) I will never breed him. 2) I will never show him. 3) I may never register him with AKC (although he is eligible for registration), because he is a companion dog. What's the point of registering him if he's never shown or bred?

He sleeps in my bedroom, we go for lots of walks and play fetch on our land, and visit parks and pet-friendly stores regularly.

Why do you feel the need to examine his pedigree? I certainly hope you're not saying that every Doberman has to be registered and their pedigree provided so anonymous people on an Internet forum can look up your pet on to see if it's worthy of their approval.

Not everyone who loves Dobermans and wants to add one to their family wants a show quality dog, or one to breed. I get that lovers of Dobermans want to ensure the breed is as good as it can be. But if breeders limit Dobe litters to only pedigreed and titled dogs, the breed will die out.
 

Big Lil pup
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OK guys... Me included. Let's give this argument a rest. I'm sure that the mods could step in. But that is totally unnecessary. We all love our dogs and want what is best for them. Let's leave it at that.

Tomorrow is another day.

John Lichtwardt
Portland Or
 

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OK guys... Me included. Let's give this argument a rest. I'm sure that the mods could step in. But that is totally unnecessary. We all love our dogs and want what is best for them. Let's leave it at that.

Tomorrow is another day.

John Lichtwardt
Portland Or
I agree. I wish the mods would delete this entire thread. 馃檮
 

Big Lil pup
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Nah... This thread has run its course. Actually, a nice learning experience for all. This is what internet discourse is all about. As long as folks keep it civil, everyone is entitled to their opinion. (I constantly have to remind myself of that!)

John
Portland OR
 

Bazinga!
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The whole reason why commercial kennels succeed and even thrive... ignorance and availability.

We live in a me me me I I I society.
I want a puppy and I want it now....
people are ignorant and often don't do their homework before purchasing.
They always have puppies available! They're also generally (notbakways) cheaper than ethical reputable breeders. Society wants things as cheaply as possible. Without doing proper homework most people don't either A understand why reputable puppies are more expensive. B they don't care....

These people breed for cash money. End story.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
The whole reason why commercial kennels succeed and even thrive... ignorance and availability.

We live in a me me me I I I society.
I want a puppy and I want it now....
people are ignorant and often don't do their homework before purchasing.
They always have puppies available! They're also generally (notbakways) cheaper than ethical reputable breeders. Society wants things as cheaply as possible. Without doing proper homework most people don't either A understand why reputable puppies are more expensive. B they don't care....

These people breed for cash money. End story.
You hit the nail on the head.
 

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The whole reason why commercial kennels succeed and even thrive... ignorance and availability.

We live in a me me me I I I society.
I want a puppy and I want it now....
people are ignorant and often don't do their homework before purchasing.
They always have puppies available! They're also generally (notbakways) cheaper than ethical reputable breeders. Society wants things as cheaply as possible. Without doing proper homework most people don't either A understand why reputable puppies are more expensive. B they don't care....

These people breed for cash money. End story.
I should take John's advice and let this thread die. 馃檮 But I can't ignore that you are implying that I'm ignorant and didn't do my homework before buying a Doberman puppy. I DID research what I wanted and what to look for and ask about. I learned a lot here on this forum before I joined. Thanks so much for everyone sharing their knowledge!!! I figured out that I didn't want an expensive show dog because I will never breed or show. The prices for a direct descendant of a champion titled dog are prohibitive for a large number of people who want a companion Dobe. So I looked for second or third generation litters that are AKC registereable (not CKC or not registereable at all off of Craigslist). Hmmm, seems only commercial kennels offer those dogs. Without commercial kennels, if the only Dobes available were the offspring of champions that became champions themselves, the breed would die off.

I was in contact with the kennel owner for 3 months, visited the grounds and asked a lot of questions, BEFORE I put a deposit down to get on the waiting list. It took over 9 months to get my pup.

So your blanket statement that kennels succeed only because of ignorant buyers and readily available puppies is false. I am NOT ignorant and I waited a long time to get the dog I wanted.

The elitism on this forum is unbelievable. 馃檮

OMG can a moderator please delete this entire thread?????
 

Big Lil pup
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@ DoberPapa. Relax. No big deal. Some folks , and I am as guilty as some, just don't know when to STFU.

The important thing is that you are here. In my opinion, this is the best possible site for information and direction for those of us that own Dobermans. Especially those new to the breed or with puppies. Canine medicine, nutrition and technology is rapidly changing.I have owned Dobermans since 1974. I learn something new almost every day (OK... every few months. LOL)

There really is no "elitism" here. Just passion, and a certain amount of disregard for other posters' feelings. Honestly.... This is not much different from most on-line interactive forums.

Stick around. Put your questions out and pick and choose the ones that you feel are relevant.
Make your comments and suggestions, but be prepared for others to disagree. Don't take it personally.

Glad you are here

John
Portland OR
 

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Discussion Starter #30
The whole reason why commercial kennels succeed and even thrive... ignorance and availability.

We live in a me me me I I I society.
I want a puppy and I want it now....
people are ignorant and often don't do their homework before purchasing.
They always have puppies available! They're also generally (notbakways) cheaper than ethical reputable breeders. Society wants things as cheaply as possible. Without doing proper homework most people don't either A understand why reputable puppies are more expensive. B they don't care....

These people breed for cash money. End story.
I should take John's advice and let this thread die. 馃檮 But I can't ignore that you are implying that I'm ignorant and didn't do my homework before buying a Doberman puppy. I DID research what I wanted and what to look for and ask about. I learned a lot here on this forum before I joined. Thanks so much for everyone sharing their knowledge!!! I figured out that I didn't want an expensive show dog because I will never breed or show. The prices for a direct descendant of a champion titled dog are prohibitive for a large number of people who want a companion Dobe. So I looked for second or third generation litters that are AKC registereable (not CKC or not registereable at all off of Craigslist). Hmmm, seems only commercial kennels offer those dogs. Without commercial kennels, if the only Dobes available were the offspring of champions that became champions themselves, the breed would die off.

I was in contact with the kennel owner for 3 months, visited the grounds and asked a lot of questions, BEFORE I put a deposit down to get on the waiting list. It took over 9 months to get my pup.

So your blanket statement that kennels succeed only because of ignorant buyers and readily available puppies is false. I am NOT ignorant and I waited a long time to get the dog I wanted.

The elitism on this forum is unbelievable. 馃檮

OMG can a moderator please delete this entire thread?????
Shady Grove charges right at $2000 for a cropped Dobe, do they not? I'm not mad at all - what's done is done. But with those prices you aren't actually saving enough money to make supporting her worth it. But that's just my 2 cents on the matter since people keep mentioning that they couldn't afford/didn't want to pay crazy amounts.
 

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Shady Grove charges right at $2000 for a cropped Dobe, do they not? I'm not mad at all - what's done is done. But with those prices you aren't actually saving enough money to make supporting her worth it. But that's just my 2 cents on the matter since people keep mentioning that they couldn't afford/didn't want to pay crazy amounts.
Never said you were mad. My post was in response to SieYa who made the correlation that anyone who chooses to purchase a Doberman from a kennel is ignorant and didn't do their homework. I did look at other kennels in the area. The closest that came to what I was looking for charges $2500 for co-ownership and $3000 for limited registration, with full registration available for a price they will "discuss", with a $1000 nonrefundable deposit for the waiting list. They have 1 sire and 2 dams, none of which are titled. One dam is less than a year old, and one is just over a year old, with a litter expected next month. The sire is 1 1/2 years old. 馃槼馃槼馃槼

So if anyone wants to bash me for purchasing a less expensive companion dog from a commercial kennel instead of a small mom & pop that breeds out of their home, go right ahead. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better.
 

sandy2233
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Never said you were mad. My post was in response to SieYa who made the correlation that anyone who chooses to purchase a Doberman from a kennel is ignorant and didn't do their homework. I did look at other kennels in the area. The closest that came to what I was looking for charges $2500 for co-ownership and $3000 for limited registration, with full registration available for a price they will "discuss", with a $1000 nonrefundable deposit for the waiting list. They have 1 sire and 2 dams, none of which are titled. One dam is less than a year old, and one is just over a year old, with a litter expected next month. The sire is 1 1/2 years old. 馃槼馃槼馃槼

So if anyone wants to bash me for purchasing a less expensive companion dog from a commercial kennel instead of a small mom & pop that breeds out of their home, go right ahead. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better.
A bitch was bred at less than one year of age and one just over a year. I will assume that health testing for these breeder is not very high on the priority list as you cant get hips or elbows done that early. Is the knowledge available to know whether this dog is a VWB carrier or affected? What about the PD4K Markers 1 and 2 for DCM? Are those done? You will experience much sadness when a pup might die from all these diseases. I will not ever mind paying a premium for dogs that are tested. Emily died in my arms. She had liver issues but I also think she had cardio problems as fast as her death hit her. I truly hope you have received a dog that will live long and healthy.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Shady Grove charges right at $2000 for a cropped Dobe, do they not? I'm not mad at all - what's done is done. But with those prices you aren't actually saving enough money to make supporting her worth it. But that's just my 2 cents on the matter since people keep mentioning that they couldn't afford/didn't want to pay crazy amounts.
Never said you were mad. My post was in response to SieYa who made the correlation that anyone who chooses to purchase a Doberman from a kennel is ignorant and didn't do their homework. I did look at other kennels in the area. The closest that came to what I was looking for charges $2500 for co-ownership and $3000 for limited registration, with full registration available for a price they will "discuss", with a $1000 nonrefundable deposit for the waiting list. They have 1 sire and 2 dams, none of which are titled. One dam is less than a year old, and one is just over a year old, with a litter expected next month. The sire is 1 1/2 years old. 馃槼馃槼馃槼

So if anyone wants to bash me for purchasing a less expensive companion dog from a commercial kennel instead of a small mom & pop that breeds out of their home, go right ahead. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better.
I'm just saying that those prices are obscene. I spoke with a highly recommended breeder around here (a lot of people on this forum have dogs from her) and her asking price for a pet quality pup, already cropped, titled, all of the proper health testing, and 100% breeder support was $2500. And the waiting list wasn't crazy either.
 

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A bitch was bred at less than one year of age and one just over a year. I will assume that health testing for these breeder is not very high on the priority list as you cant get hips or elbows done that early. Is the knowledge available to know whether this dog is a VWB carrier or affected? What about the PD4K Markers 1 and 2 for DCM? Are those done? You will experience much sadness when a pup might die from all these diseases. I will not ever mind paying a premium for dogs that are tested. Emily died in my arms. She had liver issues but I also think she had cardio problems as fast as her death hit her. I truly hope you have received a dog that will live long and healthy.
That's the breeder that was NOT chosen... it's not the one the puppy was from.
 

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That's the breeder that was NOT chosen... it's not the one the puppy was from.
A bitch was bred at less than one year of age and one just over a year. I will assume that health testing for these breeder is not very high on the priority list as you cant get hips or elbows done that early. Is the knowledge available to know whether this dog is a VWB carrier or affected? What about the PD4K Markers 1 and 2 for DCM? Are those done? You will experience much sadness when a pup might die from all these diseases. I will not ever mind paying a premium for dogs that are tested. Emily died in my arms. She had liver issues but I also think she had cardio problems as fast as her death hit her. I truly hope you have received a dog that will live long and healthy.
So sorry to hear about your Emily. 馃槥 I, too, have lost pets that meant the world to me. In fact, I lost my best friend and protector of 14 years this past May. His ashes are on my fireplace mantle, and I have an ink stamp of his paw print taken after we made the heart-wrenching decision to send him over the Rainbow Bridge. 馃槳 He was a rescue from the SPCA when he was 3 months old - a mutt mix - best guess was Rott/Lab. He was gorgeous and reached a muscular 105 lbs in his prime. I also have another rescue from the SPCA, a 9.5 year old Rott/GSD mix that we adopted 8 years ago, and is a treasured member of the family. 鉂

I hope you understand that I didn't choose that breeder. This is my first purebred purchase. I did my homework, and the breeder I chose does test Sires and Dams for VwB and DCM 1 and 2 markers, and doesn't breed Dams before 2 years of age. I joined this forum to learn. But I've learned here that only Dobermans that are titled with all the acceptable DNA health tests, and hips and elbows, are approved for breeding. That's so sad.
 

Got mutt?
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-------- This is my first purebred purchase. I did my homework, and the breeder I chose does test Sires and Dams for VwB and DCM 1 and 2 markers, and doesn't breed Dams before 2 years of age. I joined this forum to learn. But I've learned here that only Dobermans that are titled with all the acceptable DNA health tests, and hips and elbows, are approved for breeding. That's so sad.
Wanting to breed the healthiest, soundest, sanest dogs (of any breed, not just Dobes) possible is sad?
 
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I'm just saying that those prices are obscene. I spoke with a highly recommended breeder around here (a lot of people on this forum have dogs from her) and her asking price for a pet quality pup, already cropped, titled, all of the proper health testing, and 100% breeder support was $2500. And the waiting list wasn't crazy either.
I'm going to assume (correct me if I'm wrong), that pups from your recommended breeder weren't titled and had proper health testing, but that it was the parents. And BTW I didn't pay $2,000 for my dog, but I did get 100% breeder support and a 3 year health guarantee. 馃檮 What do you think a pet quality pup from second or third generation champions, where the immediate parents were genetically tested, should cost? Or do you think only first generation of titled Dobermans should exist?

When I interact on rescue forums, the response is much different. I've taken in many dogs and cats over 2 decades that would've been put to sleep. This is my first purebred, and I'm being excoriated here because I didn't choose the "right" breeder for a companion dog, and I didn't pay $2500.

Again, if only pups from titled and genetically cleared Dobermans were bred as companion dogs, the breed would be extinct.
 

nutsaboutmydobes
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When I interact on rescue forums, the response is much different. I've taken in many dogs and cats over 2 decades that would've been put to sleep. This is my first purebred, and I'm being excoriated here because I didn't choose the "right" breeder for a companion dog, and I didn't pay $2500.
Did you ever consider rescuing a Dobe if all you were looking for was a companion dog? I'm on my 4th rescue Dobe, it's amazing what gems there are to be found that people so casually throw away once the novelty has worn off. :wink2:
 
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