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Thread: Rescuer killed by dogs on 08-25-2012
I bet she was trying to break up a dog fight. ommitted...
Hi all
Last Wed, my female Golden Ret (27 month) and my female Dob (18 month) had a fight, not their 1st one but their worst.

Their last one was 7 months ago. Since that, it is stopped before the fight started with a NO scolding and stand up in between them.
I ussually release them in the morning out of the kennel when both are submissive (no more exciting tail movement).
BUT that day I was in hurry for a day long meeting. I released them while are still excited from seeing me in the morning. The golden was released 1st. When the dobbi was also released some 20-30 seconds later, the Golden was running fast toward us (me & the dobbi) - I assume wanted to be pet. Then bang!!! they were already in fight. A single bark, when I looked... their jaws have been locked to each other.

The 1 attempt was while Dobbi hold into Golden's neck. I openned the jaw and hold both on their neck (1 on each hand). Failed to hold, 2 of them were too strong for me.
The 2nd attempt was while their jaws interlock each other. I put a leash into Dobbi and tied it up into a post. I attached another leash into Goldi. Coz I am scared of Dobbi bite rather then Goldi's one, I openned and hold the dobbi jaw. But then, Goldi bite my lefy arm... scared of its fang, I pushed my arm deeper and pressed it hard against her. Lucky that movement also put her away from the tied-up dobbi. With the leash on the other hand, I could hold her into a small tree near by. Then I able to release my arm. But this Goldi continued to bark at the Dobbi agressively.

I was still under the adrenaline rush, feel no pain yet. Still managed to washed both of them from the blood to quickly examine them. Lucky, there was no major bleeding on both, only several puncture on both of them. I treated it with antibiotic ointment. I drank glassesssss of water, washed myself then feel extremly tired. Took a 40mins nap before rushing to the office. 2 hours later I start feeling the pain in the arm and some scratches on my skin. Doctor gave me a shot and antibiotic, feared for infection from the bite and scratched skin from the kennel area.

This morning I search DT and internet related for breaking-up a dog fight. I was stunned by ZeldaRules' post, that I was lucky they didn't come after me on the 1st attempt.

My #1 question is what is the common protocol or std operating procedure for a single person to break-up a dog fight (of 2 dogs) of his own; agree that stop it before happen is always easier.
In the meantime, here is my procedure: (any input / modification is more than welcome)
1. get 2 leashes (min of 1.5m length) ready at dogs area
2. if fight (not just growling or barking, but biting) has started and both are so turned-on... let it run for several minutes to drain some of their energy
3. put the leash into the domminant one (while they are on fight) and tied it up into something strong (make sure the leash is loose)
4. put another leash on the other dog
5. seperate them by (pls let me know how you safely break them up):
5.a. ...if a pail of water avail, pour it into their face
5.b. ...if a horn avail
5.c. ...lift the back feet of the other dog and rotate them to get the dog out of balance
5.? last resource... manually open the jaw of domminant one
(a/b/c/... is from the reading)

6. pull the other one away and tied it up into another strong post.
7. wash them, not only to clean them which is easier to examine the wounded but I found this is also to calm them down.
8. once both are calm, shorthen the leash of the other dog. Untie the domminant one, still on leash, bring it come to meet the other one.
9. once there is no more agression, let them sit/down and pet them together (still on leash or seperate kennel at least for another day).

I am aware of female-female dog aggression BUT I believe that as a pack, dogs should be able to live together.

This female goldi has been showing some agression toward puppy. She snapped a 5months GSD 3 months ago. She wants to be pet. But everybody in my home take a side with the goldi, says that she is the victim (coz she is bleeding more). But into my eyes, this goldi who shows d agression. Nobody believe in my explanation.

My #2 question: Is there any checklist avail for I can score dog agression type and level?

regards, plt
 

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honestly, based on what i've read about it, it sounds like your dobe got old enough for same-sex aggression to kick in. someone else will know far better than me but you're probably going to have to start crating both and separating them completely, and rotating which dog is out at any given time.
 

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That is the age my females decided the party was over! When Kyrah was between 15 -18 months old. She turned the tables and my queen Tippy had to bow down. That fight yrs ago it took months for everything to simmer down. I was on constant guard and monitored things closely ever since. Unfortunately about a month ago I let my guard down and failed my Tippy. :( Hubby and I were wrestling and Kyrah went in for Tippy who I know wanted no part of that. We are on a bumby road again.

I cant imagine trying to break up two dogs that size that are both going at it. I could barely do it when my females were younger on the first squabble. The last two when only one was going at it and the other wanted no part. My females are pretty much separated now. I know where Tippy is all the time..she has moved her kingdom to my bed pillows. I hate that she has pretty much given up coming into the front to sit with us. I do now call her and have her come in the front...but if she feels even the slightest bit of discomfort she leaves. :( Be aware the age difference in my girls. Tippy is 10yrs old and I believe if this was when she was younger she would have fought to the death. There will be no more females in this house as long as Kyrah is here.

I agree its time to separate them if you want to enjoy any time with either of them. While mine move around the house while I am in it with them. I play with them separately but very happy that I can walk them all (4) together.
 

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Bad Wolf
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If my bitches were fighting like that I would take no chances of a fight breaking out. Crate and rotate, they wouldn't so much as see the other ever again.
 

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If my bitches were fighting like that I would take no chances of a fight breaking out. Crate and rotate, they wouldn't so much as see the other ever again.
This exactly!

Mabel is to my belief same sex aggression, as well as dog reactive.
The only reason hannah is safe (and that hasn't always been the case) is because she is a super submissive dog.

I have broken up more dog fights in the last three years than I ever thought I would, let alone between my own dog...

CRATE AND ROTATE! or rehome one of your girls, it is the only and safest way!

----------------------------------

My #1 question is what is the common protocol or std operating procedure for a single person to break-up a dog fight (of 2 dogs) of his own; agree that stop it before happen is always easier.
In the meantime, here is my procedure: (any input / modification is more than welcome)
1. get 2 leashes (min of 1.5m length) ready at dogs area
2. if fight (not just growling or barking, but biting) has started and both are so turned-on... let it run for several minutes to drain some of their energy
3. put the leash into the domminant one (while they are on fight) and tied it up into something strong (make sure the leash is loose)
4. put another leash on the other dog
5. seperate them by (pls let me know how you safely break them up):

The best way i've found to seperate them is to just wait once you have a hold of each and they can't go anywhere, always remain quiet!, and if they refuse to release you can do the water, or grab a medium piece of hose, as the one is biting put it in their bite range, very often they swap off to it without even realizing

5.a. ...if a pail of water avail, pour it into their face
5.b. ...if a horn avail
5.c. ...lift the back feet of the other dog and rotate them to get the dog out of balance
5.? last resource... manually open the jaw of domminant one
(a/b/c/... is from the reading)

NEVER put your hands in/on/around the mouth of a dog in the middle of a fight, do you want to get bit?

6. pull the other one away and tied it up into another strong post.
7. wash them, not only to clean them which is easier to examine the wounded but I found this is also to calm them down.

8. once both are calm, shorthen the leash of the other dog. Untie the domminant one, still on leash, bring it come to meet the other one.
9. once there is no more agression, let them sit/down and pet them together (still on leash or seperate kennel at least for another day).
never do these last two for at least several hours! if ever, since your dogs have proven to not like each other as a general fact.
Had I done this with Mabel and one of the many bitches I had coming through my house (who she hated) they'd have been right back at each others throats


I am aware of female-female dog aggression BUT I believe that as a pack, dogs should be able to live together.

this theory is going to get you or one of your dogs killed....If you force them to live together you are just adding more and more tension to an already overflowing pot

This female goldi has been showing some agression toward puppy. She snapped a 5months GSD 3 months ago. She wants to be pet. But everybody in my home take a side with the goldi, says that she is the victim (coz she is bleeding more). But into my eyes, this goldi who shows d agression. Nobody believe in my explanation.
It is possible she is the agressor, or it is also possible she is now becoming reactive because of the dobe being the agressor

My #2 question: Is there any checklist avail for I can score dog agression type and level?
Yes it's called a board certified behaviorist
 

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You can't kill the metal
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There is no real safe way for someone to break up a dog fight alone. I would never stick my hands into their jaws if they are biting each other though.

I heard grabbing their back legs and dragging them to something that you can tie them up to (one at a time) is the best way. They will likely be too focused on defending themselves from each other that hopefully they wont turn to bite you. Although I'm not sure if this would work for everyone...I know that Lexi isn't to fond of her back legs being grabbed.

Or, find something that makes noise that they are scared of. For Lexi, for whatever reason, she doesn't like it when I shake garbage bags open. Or if I had a vaccuum cleaner handy I could simply turn that on lol...chucking water on their heads could work too. Often they are very zoned into each other though, so noise distractions may not work.

I wouldn't crate and rotate, personally. I would find a muzzle for both of them and just monitor their body language over time to see who's starting the fights. It makes more sense to me that the one starting the fights should be in the crate and not the one defending itself. Plus they need to learn how to live together nicely, which may or may not happen.

Maybe try yelling "SQUIRREL!!"? ;)
 

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No breaking up a dog fight experience here, but experience with dog agression.
My 6.5yr old spayed girl is- as a rule dog agressive. There are some dogs she is ok with, but I prefer just to group her as dog agressive and just be surprised when she likes someone.

I just recently got the balls to try fostering. She had previously lived with a male dobe and did ok with him as long as she was queen.
I started with a VERY shy, submissive male 8 month puppy. It took 2 weeks, but they started playing and got along quite well. Then she got pissed off because he looked at her while she was eating a treat and bit him leaving a tooth hole in his side. After that, she wasn't quite as good as she had been with him.

3 weeks ago i got that puppy's brother who is more dominant and wants nothing to do with my girl. They have had about 3 small squabbles and I am not willing to risk either of them being injured, so it is crate and rotate here until he is adopted. I don't think breaking up a fight sounds like a fun time. They can still fight if they are muzzled, so it would still be a high stress environment if they were out together and muzzled, so i prefer to crate. They get equal time in and out of the crate and when in the crate they get something to chew or occupy them.
It's a pain, but it isn't as painful as a dog bite!
 

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Got mutt?
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Frankly, the safest way to break up a dog fight is to not let it happen in the first place. If your girls are fighting, keep them seperated from each other. I have a very small house and yard, and am juggling three dogs. My Rat Terrier and GSD got into a fight before Christmas. Now, they are not allowed together unless they are supervised. Period, end of discussion.
 

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Luv-The-Nub
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Time for the dogs to live SEPARATELY. Devise a plan that includes both dogs not being around each other but also getting the proper exercise and attention they both need. OR rehome one of the dogs to a more suitable place, with the knowlege that they (or one) is not capable of living with other dogs.....
 
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My two dogs (both deceased now) had a horrible fight once. I don't know if I did the correct thing, but in desperation I threw a blanket over them. I was crying and freaking out, so I had to throw the blanket a few times to get it to go over them. It immediately stopped the fight.

I know on the German Shepherd forum they say males fight for breeding rights, females fight for breathing rights. Once two females go at it they don't tend to forget from what I've heard. I agree with everybody - crate and rotate or rehome.
 

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rehome one of them is my suggestion. But if you ever have to in an emergency split up a fight, grab one dog by the rear legs, and starting backing up. If you are fortunate to have a second person, have them do the same with the second dog. If you are alone, grab one by the back legs and try to find a doorway that you can back into and use to separate the two. I once separated a great dane and a dobe this way and once the dobe was into the room i used the door to finally separate the two by pushing until one released. It's not something i wish on anyone to go through. Throwing stuff, beating them with brooms, or chairs and yelling can escalate it and make the situation worse.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks all for the explanation and the shared experience.
After a quick phone discussion with wife telling her about you all opinion on this, to keep owning the dogs as a fun for the whole family member (not creating fear and worrying), we would choose the crate and rotate method. Our safety (the human & dogs) come first.
Only when I present arround them (walk on leash and playing at yard after that), they should allowed to be out together.
In the meantime, rehoming 1 of them is not our option. Hopefully all the family member (incl my 7 yrs son) quick to adapt with this new routine.
 

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sandy2233
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I can't remember where I heard this (maybe one of Leerburg videos) that an air horn might work. I used to break up pack fights and not be the least bit worried (when I was younger). Just started throwing dogs. Stupid, Stupid, Stuipid. Emily and Abby (son's border collie) have "disagreements" but a holler drops both of them. Emily has always been pushy even when a puppy and now I just see her as maturing into a Doberman bitch. I don't throw toys when both are out because I could see that turning into a disaster. They play tug together and run together but they are always supervised.
 

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I wouldn't crate and rotate, personally. I would find a muzzle for both of them and just monitor their body language over time to see who's starting the fights. It makes more sense to me that the one starting the fights should be in the crate and not the one defending itself. Plus they need to learn how to live together nicely, which may or may not happen.
You can't do that to the one starting the fights. The one starting the fights isn't going to understand that it's being punished for not getting along with the other one. It's also being punished for something that essentially isn't its fault.

Pit- If you are that certain another fight will break out the dogs shouldn't be together at all and I have to agree with crate and rotate. Are they living outside? Because that's what it seems like from your original post.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Pit- If you are that certain another fight will break out the dogs shouldn't be together at all and I have to agree with crate and rotate. Are they living outside? Because that's what it seems like from your original post.
Dobelove - Yes, they live outside. Their kennels (not crates) are built at the side of the house, 3 individual kennels. Day time, they are free from the kennel to do their "business" at the dedicated "dumping" point and to play at the side lawn (appx 200 sq meter).

From time to time, the family member usually invite them to play and interact at the garage and terrace. Could be said, it's only 2-4 hrs per day they don't interact w/ their human companion. On the 2-4 hrs, they also have access to play and interact w/ the complex security guard (their post is at the end of the lawn).

On week day, their exercise time is between 18.30 to 20.30. We usually do the pack walk (on leash, goldi & dobbi). At the end of the pack walk, I take dobbi to play tug and and 'walking fast' on leash while I cycling slowly. At this point, the goldi has exhausted while dobbi still has an amount of energy.

Then place them back together into the lawn. 20-30 mins later, take their meal into their kennel and lock them in.

At the week-end, very often we take a car ride to relatives' or friend's house. 2 of them at the back of the SUV (no crate). But after this last Wed fight, I don't know should I ever place them together into the car anymore.

note: 1 male goldi (24 mon) was taken 4 months ago by my cousin who lost her 9.5 yrs golden. She said that mine is behaved very similar to hers.
 

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Dobelove - Yes, they live outside. Their kennels (not crates) are built at the side of the house, 3 individual kennels. Day time, they are free from the kennel to do their "business" at the dedicated "dumping" point and to play at the side lawn (appx 200 sq meter).

From time to time, the family member usually invite them to play and interact at the garage and terrace. Could be said, it's only 2-4 hrs per day they don't interact w/ their human companion. On the 2-4 hrs, they also have access to play and interact w/ the complex security guard (their post is at the end of the lawn).

On week day, their exercise time is between 18.30 to 20.30. We usually do the pack walk (on leash, goldi & dobbi). At the end of the pack walk, I take dobbi to play tug and and 'walking fast' on leash while I cycling slowly. At this point, the goldi has exhausted while dobbi still has an amount of energy.

Then place them back together into the lawn. 20-30 mins later, take their meal into their kennel and lock them in.

At the week-end, very often we take a car ride to relatives' or friend's house. 2 of them at the back of the SUV (no crate). But after this last Wed fight, I don't know should I ever place them together into the car anymore.

note: 1 male goldi (24 mon) was taken 4 months ago by my cousin who lost her 9.5 yrs golden. She said that mine is behaved very similar to hers.
I understand it's a foreign country, but please know here in the states/canada we tend to view dogs as house mates and you may get some responses to that effect.

I agree with dobelove and so will most of the other posters, they can not be together again period every single time is a risk of another, more potentially fatal fight!
If you need to take them both in the car, crate one if not both if you are able, or buy a seperator and put one in the back seat one in the trunk space (assuming you have an suv/van/or larger car)
 

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"From time to time, the family member usually invite them to play and interact at the garage and terrace." which family member? I've had two female dogs in the house and one male cat. I've never experienced this so called aggression. It sounds like to me, that you are overwhelmed and can't handle the situation. google your local doberman rescue group in your state. sorry
 

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@Sarene, not every dog is the same. some CANNOT be with other same-sex dogs. you were lucky, but there are plenty of others who deal with this problem.

also, the OP is not in the States. (s)he is in Jakarta.
 

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"From time to time, the family member usually invite them to play and interact at the garage and terrace." which family member? I've had two female dogs in the house and one male cat. I've never experienced this so called aggression. It sounds like to me, that you are overwhelmed and can't handle the situation. google your local doberman rescue group in your state. sorry
Same sex aggression is common in the breed, though usually more in males.

The OP lives in Indonesia so a rescue group is unlikely.
 
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