[arankin]

I am having some trouble gaining Scarlet's focus... When I use treats or a tug, I get focus, and she will constantly look up at me and follow my movements and wait for the reward.. But say we are out for a walk and I am asking for behaviours such as a proper heal or sit I don't get them 100% of the time. Its almost like she knows she is not getting rewarded and won't want to do it. Her sits can be sloppy, where she will turn to the left and sit kind of side ways almost behind me. Healing, she starts to look off into another direction either strealing along with me, or wanting to go opposite of me. Why do I have her focus during obedience classes mostly, but in the "real" world its hit and miss. When there is a reward I will get an automatic sit, heal, change of pace, etc without even giving her any commands. So she knows what she is doing but she just won't do it without a reward really.

I guess I am asking how to ween your dog off a reward and gain focus. Or will you just always have to have some type of reward based system in order to have focus? I want her to want to watch what I am doing and follow ME, not do what she pleases.

 

[Sorceress_Mage]

Wow!! It appears that we both have the same thing happening. But my boy will disobey me even with the treats and it is something I know he knows how to do it. It's just like, "What can I do to embarrass Mommy in class?" And on his walks he is pretty good most of the time. Just the other day, in the dog park at about 6:00 a.m., when we have the whole park to ourselves, he will even heel off leash. One day also I was flabbergasted when he was barreling towards me and I was afraid he would run into me, I put my hand up in the sit signal and he tried to sit mid-flight or in mid-step and slid in like a baseball player. It was hilarious and since I don't want him hurting himself, I won't do that again. He could have injured himself.

 

[Adara]

How did you train? Did your lure? did you wean off of luring quickly? Did you fade treats and use other rewards, etc.? Did you build up to distractions?

 

[Beaumont67]

I have never used treats to train OB.
Because constant eye focus may be problematic, during the weining off of training treats...and I lack this reward based total training method experience.

But I did train my dog wearing a choke chain...with tiny (low level) pulls on the leash...in perfect timing.
I used a choke chain much like a flat collar (that my dog also wears)...but when I clip my leash to the ckoke chain, my dog knows we are in training mode (all business now) and the sound of the chain links provides a clicking sound reminder that I rely on...to alert my dog, to stay watching me.

Years ago, I discovered if one wants 100% eye contact, in training mode...can never allow your dogs head to lower towards out of focus...and then they attemp to start their sniffing action with their nose on the ground (zoning out)...and the dogs attention span is now gone and lost.
So I gently correct as need be, to ensure the dogs head is always up and head is never turning away from me.
I will also talk to my dog frequently, to train her eyes, to follow my lead...and do much touch praise, when we stop.
- while we train in different mentods, I just wanted to share what I found that helps me personally

 

[arankin]

How did you train? Did your lure? did you wean off of luring quickly? Did you fade treats and use other rewards, etc.? Did you build up to distractions?

Hey, we started as a puppy with clicker training and treat training on a flat collar. She will be turning 1 next week, and for the past few months we have moved onto a slip chain. We completed level 1 obedience, and now doing level 2... So at this point, we are beginning off leash work and I really need the focus and control. In obedience class now, we don't use treats, because I have weened her off them and we are working on a slip chain with light corrections. So as I said, she knows what she is expected to do, just decides to check out every now and then. Like she has no concern for what I am asking her for sometimes.

But yes, I faded the treats, used marker words, and then toy rewards. Rewards don't happen every time, but I do use toys and food as a reward occasionally. Because I have found I gather more focus from her when I use food, thats how I train sometimes. But I don't want to always have to have a particular reward on me at all times, I want the behaviours because she WANTS to do them and wants to please and obey.

I have never used treats to train OB.
Because constant eye focus may be problematic, during the weining off of training treats...and I lack this reward based total training method experience.

But I did train my dog wearing a choke chain...with tiny (low level) pulls on the leash...in perfect timing.
I used a choke chain much like a flat collar (that my dog also wears)...but when I clip my leash to the ckoke chain, my dog knows we are in training mode (all business now) and the sound of the chain links provides a clicking sound reminder that I rely on...to alert my dog, to stay watching me.

Years ago, I discovered if one wants 100% eye contact, in training mode...can never allow your dogs head to lower towards out of focus...and then they attemp to start their sniffing action with their nose on the ground (zoning out)...and the dogs attention span is now gone and lost.
So I gently correct as need be, to ensure the dogs head is always up and head is never turning away from me.
I will also talk to my dog frequently, to train her eyes, to follow my lead...and do much touch praise, when we stop.
- while we train in different mentods, I just wanted to share what I found that helps me personally

We use a choke chain as well. It is not on at all times, like you said, its on for work mostly.. I don't allow her to sniff, or I try not to anyways. She gets a firm "no sniff" and a small check. Ok, now her attention is on me, but then a few steps later, its gone. I can't keep checking her, because if I have to keep checking her, it becomes redundant and ineffective.

Basically I am wondering how I can also get her excited to work and loving obedience! I keep an up beat happy voice, and lots of praise and encouragement through each behaviour she does right! I work with her almost every day or other day in short sessions, its just something is missing, i need more focus and connection with her.. and more willingness to follow me and stay on track. Am I making sense or talking non sense lol, I am not sure if I am explaining properly

 

[adhahn]

I condition focus during training by using a ball/tug/toy/whatever. After the dog is well conditioned, I demand that focus to stay during specific behaviors. For example, I insist on focus during a formal heel whether or not I have a toy. I demand focus on a formal retrieve. My personal training method is to use compulsion/corrections to demand that the dog focus even if I don't have a toy. I don't correct for lack of focus unless the dog has been thoroughly conditioned via some sort of marker type training though.

It sounds like you are striving for focus in everyday life. I don't expect that from a dog. That seems unrealistic. For example- I'm perfectly fine with the dog staying in a general heeling position when we are just walking around. Under those circumstances I don't care if he wanders a bit ahead or off to the side. I consider it perfectly normal for the dog to look around, sniff and so forth. To me, that that 100% intent focus is for certain formal, specific times only.

 

[Okie-dobie]

You have to make her believe that you are still carrying the reward.

You have to train using your rewards again, just like you did in class. Lot's of rewards under distraction and then slowly fading them out. Basically starting all over again.

She will eventually heel with focus under distraction just takes lot's of practice. How long have you been working on it?

Personally giving a correction with a choke chain is not really a correction at all, more like a nag.

 

[Beaumont67]

I will not allow, my dogs eye to stop looking up at me...for more than a second.
Probably Dads head is lightly tip to the left...so I can 100% watch my girl (out of my left eye)...and if I see something I don't like...small correction walking straight ahead.
If I feel a 90 or 180^ turn is more appropiate, a low plus correction then...if my turn is not followed.
I am not afraid to correct lightly often (in the beginning) or try realing in the wide or lagging walk with only my voice, if I have to...just using more of the dogs senses, keeps them on their toes.
- my girl got much confidence from OB and loved the training time with me / often for 3/4 of an hour straight homework...she longed to be outside with me (so the level of necessary correction, was still positive to her...listening to me) and the more she learned, the more fun it became
- on a slow, wide or late sit...I quickly leaned over to my left side and with my hands...showed her the placement I expected...followed by much praise

I train puppy off-leash fun walking, way before I start on-leash formal OB...and flip flop on-off leash OB to work the wrinkles out.
This early casual foundation has built up our trusting bond, in these informal exercise first...where my voice becomes the dogs magnet and direction.

 

[Herb2relax]

I am having some trouble gaining Scarlet's focus... When I use treats or a tug, I get focus, and she will constantly look up at me and follow my movements and wait for the reward.. But say we are out for a walk and I am asking for behaviours such as a proper heal or sit I don't get them 100% of the time. Its almost like she knows she is not getting rewarded and won't want to do it. Her sits can be sloppy, where she will turn to the left and sit kind of side ways almost behind me. Healing, she starts to look off into another direction either strealing along with me, or wanting to go opposite of me. Why do I have her focus during obedience classes mostly, but in the "real" world its hit and miss. When there is a reward I will get an automatic sit, heal, change of pace, etc without even giving her any commands. So she knows what she is doing but she just won't do it without a reward really.

I guess I am asking how to ween your dog off a reward and gain focus. Or will you just always have to have some type of reward based system in order to have focus? I want her to want to watch what I am doing and follow ME, not do what she pleases.

I have since Kyrah came home tried to be the most important and fun thing to her. I am not a very strict trainer in meaning she doesnt have to sit perfectly squared in her heel position. I was just thrilled she learned to walk around me and sit in place. If I told her sit stay and she downed stayed I was tickled b/c she wasnt going anywhere. That didnt do much for me if I had decided I wanted to do formal OB with her b/c now I would need to retrain which is much harder than training. I have always when walking in an area offleash or in my backyard will every so often just take off running. I dont call her but she always seems to know when I leave. I walk with her pretty much everyday and have since she was a puppy. She pretty much always paid attention to me, looked to me like can I go over there and stayed within an make beleive perimeter around me. Now when we started agility it was a whole new game. She would take a jump and then sniff the ground, couldnt hear me calling her to pay attention or looking around like she was in a daze. What a heartbreaker. I was becoming very discouraged after over a yr of training. Not that she wasnt learning but it was more off than on. I took a break of about 4 months just playing with a few jumps at home now and then. We took an formal OB class which was a new thing for us. Which for me is way to ridgid. So we went back to agility and she was a whole new dog! I have been so pleased with her. She can run a whole course and is WATCHING ME! I am sure it will not always be like that but oh, well I will enjoy it while its happeing. We are also taking a Rally class another night during the week. It is much more layed back, I can talk to her and it's ok if she messes up b/c I can barely figure out what some of the signs are at this point. My instuctors arent trying to make it to where we arent having fun. I am glad to just get out with her another night of the week without it being stressful. I am not sure if it was the break or not...but I am really feeling it is that she has gotten a little older now. By your profile thing Scarlet's only about a yr old. That is still pretty much puppy IMO. I would continue to work with her, make it fun, keep the sessions short, heeling in short sessions also, lots and lots of play building either tug or fetch to be a reward I could use instead of a food reward, building up to distractions...doing one thing with an distraction and then having a party. Then doing it again...then taking a break. For lots of Kyrah's training even weaves sessions were done in less than 5minutes each 2 - 3 times a day. Then taking a day or two off inbetween.

The book control unleashed is a great book even for advising on what you are asking about. It has the Premack Principle, teaching to play and focus on you with another dog in sight and I am sure more that I cant remember.

ETA: You have her attention in class b/c she knows what it is and what is expected. IMO Kyrah is way different in OB class and is like YES....its TREAT TIME. She also knows how to act at the pet store to get lots of treats even from the workers.

 

[arankin]

It sounds like you are striving for focus in everyday life. I don't expect that from a dog. That seems unrealistic. For example- I'm perfectly fine with the dog staying in a general heeling position when we are just walking around. Under those circumstances I don't care if he wanders a bit ahead or off to the side. I consider it perfectly normal for the dog to look around, sniff and so forth. To me, that that 100% intent focus is for certain formal, specific times only.

Great reply! Sorry I think I phrased it wrong in some parts. I do strive for focus when we are formally working i.e. in class, and for the few short training sessions along our walk, but not always. When we go for our morning walk for example, I will walk to the park loose leash (in heel) but she can smell around etc... because she is not on formal command. Once we arrive to a spot where I want to train, I command heel, we do a couple of right and left about turns, change of pace, maybe a recall or two etc... and then we finish up walk loose leash home. At this point when we are working, I will correct her for sniffing and incorrect behaviours, but just walking no, I only correct if she starts to think she can pull away and pull me in a different direction than where we are going.

Not that I am demanding "focus" at all times on our walks, but I am expecting her to stay fairly close to me though, and not go to the full 6 feet of the leash, and try to pull me her way. I am having a problem keeping her following me in close range, sometimes she checks out and wants to look at/smell whatever she's interested in.

You have to make her believe that you are still carrying the reward.

You have to train using your rewards again, just like you did in class. Lot's of rewards under distraction and then slowly fading them out. Basically starting all over again.

She will eventually heel with focus under distraction just takes lot's of practice. How long have you been working on it?

Personally giving a correction with a choke chain is not really a correction at all, more like a nag.

Yeah she doesn't need heavy corrections, she is not an extremely high drive dog and she is a pretty petite girl. A slight check is enough to get her attention. We did puppy classes, and clicker training classes which to be honest didn't teach me proper obedience form, just things like "watch me and leave it" .... So I did a lot of my own thing at home, and then we started seriously training in November on the slip chain and we are now *trying* to get off leash work going. She's not good but she's not horrible. I definitely can admit I don't have focus from her in class all the time which as you know makes it difficult to work off leash.

I train at the dog park every now and then but of course, I always have a high value reward there due to the distractions. I managed to get up there tonight, trained with food... She did perfect healing, left right about turns, and automatic sits. I guess its just going back to the basics like you said and figuring out how to build up the attention again.

I will not allow, my dogs eye to stop looking up at me...for more than a second.
Probably Dads head is lightly tip to the left...so I can 100% watch my girl (out of my left eye)...and if I see something I don't like...small correction walking straight ahead.
If I feel a 90 or 180^ turn is more appropiate, a low plus correction then...if my turn is not followed.
I am not afraid to correct lightly often (in the beginning) or try realing in the wide or lagging walk with only my voice, if I have to...just using more of the dogs senses, keeps them on their toes.
- my girl got much confidence from OB and loved the training time with me / often for 3/4 of an hour straight homework...she longed to be outside with me (so the level of necessary correction, was still positive to her...listening to me) and the more she learned, the more fun it became
- on a slow, wide or late sit...I quickly leaned over to my left side and with my hands...showed her the placement I expected...followed by much praise

I train puppy off-leash fun walking, way before I start on-leash formal OB...and flip flop on-off leash OB to work the wrinkles out.
This early casual foundation has built up our trusting bond, in these informal exercise first...where my voice becomes the dogs magnet and direction.

1/4 of the time its a slow sit, another 1/4 is a wide sit and then half the time I get a pretty good one... Still not perfect though. If I don't get a sit within 2 seconds of the command I also pop her butt into place. But sometimes when I do that she swings around and goes wide. Hmmm so much to learn!

ETA: You have her attention in class b/c she knows what it is and what is expected. IMO Kyrah is way different in OB class and is like YES....its TREAT TIME. She also knows how to act at the pet store to get lots of treats even from the workers.

Oh I know! They sure know when and where there is going to be food food food!!!! Thanks for the reply

 

[Okie-dobie]

When I say correction I don't mean a heavy correction, and it doesn't have anything to do with a dogs drive. You are not correcting, you are trying to get her attention by nagging. She will come to expect that a slight pull on the collar means look at you. When she looks away you need to do it again and again.

 

[Beaumont67]

..................
1/4 of the time its a slow sit, another 1/4 is a wide sit and then half the time I get a pretty good one... Still not perfect though. If I don't get a sit within 2 seconds of the command I also pop her butt into place. But sometimes when I do that she swings around and goes wide. Hmmm so much to learn!
.........................

I need the butt in place in 1 second or less.
I don't allow an error for 2 seconds, which allows a momentary win, in the dogs mind....for sloppy work for task execution.

You have to make her believe that you are still carrying the reward.
You have to train using your rewards again, just like you did in class. Lot's of rewards under distraction and then slowly fading them out. Basically starting all over again.
She will eventually heel with focus under distraction just takes lot's of practice. How long have you been working on it?

Personally giving a correction with a choke chain is not really a correction at all, more like a nag.

When I say correction I don't mean a heavy correction, and it doesn't have anything to do with a dogs drive. You are not correcting, you are trying to get her attention by nagging. She will come to expect that a slight pull on the collar means look at you. When she looks away you need to do it again and again.

^^^^ Okie-dobie - perfectly said:
- the low level correction can be just a single nag or a multiple nag-nag-nag, another time / Variation is Good
- besides the leash tug representing the "physical nag" effect
- plus the sound of the choke chain links grinding through the hoop...offers an additional "audio nag"
Using dual canine senses - done correctly, results can be quite speedy and long lasting.

 

[Okie-dobie]

I need the butt in place in 1 second or less.
I don't allow an error for 2 seconds, which allows a momentary win, in the dogs mind....for sloppy work for task execution.




^^^^ Okie-dobie - perfectly said:
- the low level correction can be just a single nag or a multiple nag-nag-nag, another time / Variation is Good
- besides the leash tug representing the "physical nag" effect
- plus the sound of the choke chain links grinding through the hoop...offers an additional "audio nag"
Using dual canine senses - done correctly, results can be quite speedy and long lasting.

Oh no I don't think this is a good thing! Sorry I guess I didn't explain myself well..lol! Anyways I'm to tired right now to go into explanation, I will write something tomorrow.

 

[Beaumont67]

Sorry Okie-dobie
I never meant to misread your advice / just clear up your opinion tomorrow...thanks in advance.

 

[adhahn]

The vast majority of my training is incorporated into playtime. I don't have any way to provide an exact statistic, but my estimation would be that 95% of the time we are training there is an obvious reward that the dog knows about. That reward could be a ball, a stick, a bite sleeve, roughhousing time, a neck massage, or any other thing the dog finds rewarding.

My estimation would be that 5% or less of our training requires that the dog perform focused obedience with no obvious reward. Some of that 5% is going to include unplanned or emergency type situations or times when the dog is in such an agitated state that any reward I could provide would be useless anyway, like when your dog wants to fight another dog. Situations like that can provide useful training opportunities. That would be the kind of situation where I demand the dog get into a focused heel position. He will receive as much correction/compulsion as it takes to get the job done. Depending on your dog it might take one mild correction or it might take 100 level ten corrections before the dog gets it into his head that when dad says 'fose' it doesn't matter if there is something to sniff, chase or fight; he darn well better heel anyway.

Some of my training time is similar to what you describe- going for a relaxing walk then stopping somewhere to train heeling or whatnot for a few minutes before continuing on. In my case, with very few exceptions I will have a reward and that is obvious to the dog. If it is somewhere he can run I'll throw a ball as a reward, if he must stay on leash I'll play tug, etc.

My experience has been that if you do the vast majority of your training with an obvious reward he will become conditioned to think something like "dad MUST have a ball in his pocket SOMEWHERE!!!" That keeps the dog motivated and leaves you with only needing corrections/compulsion to force compliance under the most distracting circumstances.

In summary, reward, reward, reward. For every one time you force compliance reward 9.

 

[Okie-dobie]

Oh don't apologize Beaumont67, when I look at my post this morning I can understand why you understood it that way!!

A correction should let your dog know that what he is doing in not correct! It should just be enough to correct the unwanted behavior and make the dog do what you are asking. So if it is heeling with focus the correction should just be enough to give you what you are asking. And like adhahn said the level of correction has to be appropriate for the dog and situation.

A dog can become conditioned to a correction and will come to expect as a que so you have to be careful and watch for this.

You want a dog that wants to come out and work because it's fun to be with you and the rewards are always awesome. Sometimes that's not as easy as it sounds.

A dog also needs to know in black and white terms what you want of him/her. So the correction IF given should be clear to the dog, not a nagging little pull on the collar. IMO the dog does not understand what you really want.

Anyways I'm not saying your training has to be correction based, just saying that if your going to do it, do it right.


Clear as mud??

And I will also add that most people using the choke chain type collars do not use them correctly for corrections. Not saying that's you, just making that point.

 

[Adara]

Just my two cents if one has to keep correcting/nagging, then ask yourself IS IT working or should I try something else? This probably works with all sorts of things in training not just corrections (used it as the example because if doens't seem to be working to me anyway).

I think I train similar to Adhahn's theory (I don't use corrections). It's fun, I make it seem like play. It's work without working or I teach my dogs to enjoy the work.

 

[arankin]

The vast majority of my training is incorporated into playtime. I don't have any way to provide an exact statistic, but my estimation would be that 95% of the time we are training there is an obvious reward that the dog knows about. That reward could be a ball, a stick, a bite sleeve, roughhousing time, a neck massage, or any other thing the dog finds rewarding.

In summary, reward, reward, reward. For every one time you force compliance reward 9.

Yes! I need to go back to basics for some things I think... Last summer when we were doing puppy stuff I would incorporate training into our fetch game. So we would do like go catch the ball, bring it, treat for out and then do some sits and downs. Sometimes it is hard to critique yourself though so its nice to get other suggestions and methods

Oh don't apologize Beaumont67, when I look at my post this morning I can understand why you understood it that way!!

A correction should let your dog know that what he is doing in not correct! It should just be enough to correct the unwanted behavior and make the dog do what you are asking. So if it is heeling with focus the correction should just be enough to give you what you are asking. And like adhahn said the level of correction has to be appropriate for the dog and situation.

A dog can become conditioned to a correction and will come to expect as a que so you have to be careful and watch for this.

You want a dog that wants to come out and work because it's fun to be with you and the rewards are always awesome. Sometimes that's not as easy as it sounds.

A dog also needs to know in black and white terms what you want of him/her. So the correction IF given should be clear to the dog, not a nagging little pull on the collar. IMO the dog does not understand what you really want.

Anyways I'm not saying your training has to be correction based, just saying that if your going to do it, do it right.


Clear as mud??

And I will also add that most people using the choke chain type collars do not use them correctly for corrections. Not saying that's you, just making that point.

Gotcha. How do you get a dog to give u a very focused heel and make eye contact?? I am lucky if she turns her head up at me the odd time.. she follows me but doesn't necessarily focus on me!! I really want to get heeling down, half the time she is wanting to be in front of me, the other half she is strealing behind me... and I have to go up to fast pace to get her excited and following me then back to normal pace. She is in lala land sometimes lol and I need her to get involved.

Ive worked hard with timing my corrections, and I will say that is something I understand well. I can catch her incorrect behaviours before they happen such as if she is going to try and sniff, or try to walk another way. As you said though as well, the strength of the correction should suit the intensity of the behaviour. But it still doesn't get her to look at me, yes, she follows along but its not a proper heal and focus I'm looking for. Do I make sense lol. i want her to get excited to work basically and be attentive!

 

[Adara]

Ive worked hard with timing my corrections, and I will say that is something I understand well. I can catch her incorrect behaviours before they happen such as if she is going to try and sniff, or try to walk another way. As you said though as well, the strength of the correction should suit the intensity of the behaviour. But it still doesn't get her to look at me, yes, she follows along but its not a proper heal and focus I'm looking for. Do I make sense lol. i want her to get excited to work basically and be attentive!

The correction does not tell her WHAT TO DO. It just says NO don't do that. That's why I personally don't use them. I'd rather give my dog more information and tell them what I want than 'say no no no no no no no' etc.

Have you ever played choose to heel, etc.? We played this game a lot and also right before walks.

choose to heel - YouTube

 

[arankin]

Just my two cents if one has to keep correcting/nagging, then ask yourself IS IT working or should I try something else? This probably works with all sorts of things in training not just corrections (used it as the example because if doens't seem to be working to me anyway).

I think I train similar to Adhahn's theory (I don't use corrections). It's fun, I make it seem like play. It's work without working or I teach my dogs to enjoy the work.

Well when I started on the slip chain I saw a complete 180 in her behaviours. So yes, we have made loads of progress and the checks do catch her attention when there is an incorrect behaviour. As I said, I started out using a clicker and treats, but I started to notice as I was fading off the food, and clicks, I would lose her. She would offer it only if she knew there was for sure going to be a reward, like only if she saw the reward before completing the behaviour. So I bring the clicker out, food or toys and she would all the time do what I ask and she would sit there like "What can I do to get that?" but put it all away and the lack of interest goes..... We stopped training all together for a while in about August and started back in Nov where we incorporated the slip chain. Going into level 1 I noticed she had no respect for me what so ever or regard for my movements. She does now, but its perfecting them I am having trouble with and gaining attention.

I have no problem training with food or toys, small breaks and games in between.... But I definitely like training with the slip chain also, I believe there needs to be a good balance between reward/praise and corrections. For us anyways, a mix of both is what I find effective.

The correction does not tell her WHAT TO DO. It just says NO don't do that. That's why I personally don't use them. I'd rather give my dog more information and tell them what I want than 'say no no no no no no no' etc.

Have you ever played choose to heel, etc.? We played this game a lot and also right before walks.

choose to heel - YouTube

Yeah we have done that too... thanks for the video. and when we do it for example, I will hold food in my hand and keep it up at my chest, rewarding ever so often and using my marker word "yes!".. We do it off leash at the park and yeah, I get a direct focus from her, she will heel across the park and give me undivided attention.... But take the treat away, she would maybe do 5 - 10 paces, and then quickly figure out there is no reward and lose interest. I guess my solution may be that I need to just practice more with rewards?? But what do I do when I want to swap out a reward for just verbal praise? and she loses interest?