I was planning on getting a doberman sometime in the next year, so I've been in research mode for a few months now. Yet I could never find the answer to the question of how to determine a show quality pup from the rest of the litter, that is IF there is potential in that litter.

Now, I'm actually more focused on looking for a companion dog more than anything else, I'd rather do obedience and I'm looking forward to trying out schutzhund with a dobe. But I'm curious as to what it is that appears in these potential show pups that sets them apart from the rest. It's also on my next list of questions to ask the breeders I've been in contact with, but I'd like anyone's opinion on the matter.

Thanks! :biggthump

(Oh, and if this was already covered in a thread or an article somewhere, could you please point me to it? My searches didn't turn out too well.)

You look for the same thing you'd look at in an adult dog-a smooth, one piece dog, good angles front and rear, a good topline and neckset, straight legs, a pretty head and expression, etc. More than anything, you look for overall balance and correct proportions-this is what really can separate the wheat from the chaff. Also an outgoing, "look at me" personality.

A good show prospect will have faults-but their virtues will greatly outweigh the faults, and what faults exist will be minor deviations from the ideal.

 

I was planning on getting a doberman sometime in the next year, so I've been in research mode for a few months now. Yet I could never find the answer to the question of how to determine a show quality pup from the rest of the litter, that is IF there is potential in that litter.

Now, I'm actually more focused on looking for a companion dog more than anything else, I'd rather do obedience and I'm looking forward to trying out schutzhund with a dobe. But I'm curious as to what it is that appears in these potential show pups that sets them apart from the rest. It's also on my next list of questions to ask the breeders I've been in contact with, but I'd like anyone's opinion on the matter.

Thanks! :biggthump

Oh, and if this was already covered in a thread or an article somewhere, could you please point me to it? My searches didn't turn out too well, except for this article here:
http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/gradingpuppies.htm

Hi Amuro,

Boy, what a question!! There have been books written on how to pick a puppy for show. In fact Pat Hastings book, The Puppy Puzzle deals with this sort of thing--and is a general discussion of how to pick a pup. But be forewarned even though I think Pat does a good enough job with a tough subject I don't agree with all of her theories.

First of all READ THE STANDARD--read the DPCA site where it talks about interpreting the standard....then read the standard about 50 more times.

Then, with the standard firmly in mind, go to a bunch of shows and look at dogs and see if you can see something in the ring that you like the looks of that seems to win--then see if the breeding is similar on different dogs who are winning. Then start talking to show breeders (you'll know who they are because you'll see their dogs in the ring and they will be doing a fair share of the winning. After that make sure you are talking to breeders whose dogs are winning and those you like the look of and ask them about getting a show puppy. Ask them to let you watch them grade litters and take notes on how they chose the show prospects.

I usually recommend anyone looking for a show prospect look locally first--that way you can go to show and see who wins and what they are breeding and go and see puppies and get some tutoring on how to pick them.

I've had Dobes for a lot of years--when I started out I lucked into a very good dog as my first Doberman and my first show prospect. That doesn't happen very often. After that I looked at every litter I could--show prospects or not just to see what puppies looked like at various ages and what different breeding lines looked like and what things changed from puppy to adult and what didn't, how various lines matured and how they changed in the process. Over times I've looked at literally 100's of Dobe litters. There are some lines I can tell pretty well who the best prospects are (and it's not just conformation it's also temperament and attitude as well) and there are some I don't see enough of to make guesses on young puppies.

Elaine Hopper who is a handler and breeder in the Pacific Northwest is also on this board and does a good job with evaluating litters and does a fair amount of it. Hopefully she'll get in on this discussion too.

One thing to always bear in mind is what you are starting with--you can pick the best puppy from a sire and dam who are essentially pets (or at least I can) but the chances are that the puppy will not be show quality. That's why I always recommend going out and spending time at shows and with breeders who are actually breeding for dogs of excellent conformation--at least you start at the starting line--with the possibility of a show prospect in the litter but sometimes even those litters don't turn out to be what the breeder expected and every show breeder has had the unnerving experience of selling a dog who turned out to be the pick of its litter--you just grin and hope the owner shows the dog when that happens.

By the way--often the differences between a show prospect and not are pretty minor--Dobermans--even some not very well bred ones tend to be more uniform than most breeds (go look in a dog park at the labs or goldens) and my own experience is that I have been able to do anything else with any puppy I've gotten for show that I wanted to invest the time and energy in--I do performance with all my dogs after they are retired from the show ring.

 

After that I looked at every litter I could--show prospects or not just to see what puppies looked like at various ages and what different breeding lines looked like and what things changed from puppy to adult and what didn't, how various lines matured and how they changed in the process. Over times I've looked at literally 100's of Dobe litters. There are some lines I can tell pretty well who the best prospects are (and it's not just conformation it's also temperament and attitude as well) and there are some I don't see enough of to make guesses on young puppies.

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I've done the same thing over the years. And it's certainly true, the more familiar someone might be with a particular line, the more accurate their litter grading probably will be. It's always an educated guess-with some guesses being more educated than others.

And even then, people can make mistakes, as Dobebug said. Razzle's breeder kept a red bitch who she considered the pick puppy at litter grading...over time it became obvious Razzle (second pick) was the best puppy in the litter. Both puppies looked nice at litter grading-I would have probably picked the red bitch myself at that time if given the choice. Now I'm glad I wasn't given the choice. Her mistake was my jackpot.

 

Thank you for your great responses! They are very supplementary to the standards information. I believe that one's opinion often helps a lot as well, seeing that at the end of the day, isn't it the judge's opinion of what they believe is to be the closest to the standard?

A lot of people have different ideals as to what they consider to be the best, so keep it coming! Though I'm personally afraid of the conformation ring (haha!), it may be something I tackle in the future, hence the questioning now.


Hmm, is this in the wrong section? I'm wondering if it should've went into the breeding section. Oops.

 

If you haven't been into showing for a while honestly you will have to find a good breeder and trust them. Developing an eye for a good dog takes time, for a good puppy even longer. Even if you do have the knowledge and experience to select good puppies, the rest is a crap shoot. Nobody can predict if that really nice puppy will actually turn out to be a really nice adult or not, a lot changes as they mature.

 

Great question!

Picking a show prospect from puppyhood is something that comes with years of experience and a firm understanding of the pedigree you are dealing with. That is one reason seasoned established breeders are fairly good at it because they know all the dogs in the pedigree as well as siblings...thereby having a greater scope of info to draw from.

Overall at 8 weeks or so you can get a fairly good idea of what you are starting with but age, maturity and hormones can alter the look and the end result. Happens all the time.

I try to steer away from using the "pick of the litter" phrase because the pick may be different depending on who you ask. Long time breeders may not necessarily be picking the next top twenty special....they may be looking deeper at the quality to breed down the line.

There are several obvious things that can eliminate puppies as show potential right off the bat...missing testicles or missing teeth for example...no matter how good they look. Temperament too. A top notch show dog should be bulletproof.

I encourage anyone who is looking for a first time show puppy to find a longtime established breeder with a PROVEN track record and get to know them. Establish a rapport and show you are serious about the conformation ring. You will have a much better experience overall and you will no doubt be rewarded with a nice puppy and a great mentor.

Regards,

Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets

 

I second what everyone has said here. With most of us (including me) I think the key is finding a proven breeder. There are many out there who talk a good game, talk's cheap, look for the breeders with results and the more years of experience and generations of dogs, all the better. Good reputations are earned.