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jim said:
I was talking with a very well known breeder, I'm sure everyone on this site has seen their pedigree. I told him I liked a male closer to 26" than 28" with 27" and around 75# being ideal. He chuckled and said "try to find one". >>

Well, my dog who recently finished is 27" and was 78 pounds in show weight---since he's now playing in agility he's about 75 pounds. They really aren't hard to find. Most of my breeders dogs are very moderate in size. However because there simply is a range in the breed and you'll find the occasional big dog along with the moderate dogs the other male that I have from the same breeder who is also a champion with titles in agility, obedience and rally is 28-1/2". The other two champion's from his litter were a 27" red dog and a 25-1/2" red bitch. There were four other pups in the litter and all three of the bitches were either 25" or 25-1/2". The other black male went east and I don't know how he turned out or how big he got. The whole time that my big dog was being shown it caused his breeder/handler to ask him repeatedly if he was really hers since she claimed he was the biggest thing she'd ever bred.

<< But everyone wants to cruxify Barry Hoytt for breeding over the standard when oversized dogs, from "reputable breeders" , are everywhere.>>

It isn't that I want to crucify anyone. But House of Hoytt has over the years become more and more a puppy mill. In the late 50's Barry's father was breeding "show" dogs. Mostly he was breeding fairly mediocre show prospects but he had an occasional decent dog or bitch and they were competative and finished. That hasn't been true since the late 60's. I don't think because there is an enormous bitch and her half brother an equally enormous dog (who frankly I think lacks all the way around in quality--the bitches worst fault is that she is TOO BIG) are out there being shown and winning means that the breeder is a reputable breeder. I personally don't think he is. He is very new to the breed and personally I don't think he has a clue about the idea of improving the breed. He'll be gone in another five years just like people before him have disappeared into the dust.

Yes, there are oversized dogs--and there are even a few undersized dogs--the "good and reputable" breeders make every attempt to breed what the standard calls for. The fact is that there have been big dogs who never threw their size and who made significant contributions to the breed and there have been small dogs (you understand this is generic--I'm including bitches here) who did not necessarily produce small dogs who have also proven their worth in the breed.

House of Hoytt has produced nothing except mediocrity in years. And if you like I can put you in touch with some people who had Hoytt bred dogs who were entirely unsatisfactory because of health problems, genetic defects and unacceptable temperament.

That's why I'm down on Barry Hoytt and what he produces.

<<I don't think Mr. Hoytt will be nominated for the DP Breeders Hall of Fame anytime soon. Again, I don't see the Internet full of complaints, or pending lawsuits, from owner's of his dog's claiming that he mislead them.
I honestly think the thing that bugs people the most about Barry Hoytt is that he makes his living off of selling Dobermans.
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Hall of Infamy more like. And you haven't been looking if you haven't seen the complaints about the Hoytt bred dogs. IF Barry Hoytt health tested each and every one of his breeding dogs, bred only the ones that were able to pass all of the health testing and could finish championships as well as get the occasional obedience title I would still be upset about the pure quantity of dogs that his kennels produce.
 
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