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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
After reading the schutzhund topic I decided to start a other one, couse when I put it there its off topic.

Lets go back in history, more then hundred years ago you could meet in the wide and shelving fields of Thuringen (Germany) sharp black and tan guard dogs. They were also used as police dogs but also for herding cattle and even sometimes for hunting. A men called Frederic Louis Doberman bred most of them. He collected taxes from defaulters, he was not popular so he took a guard dog with him for protection, especially when he was carrying large sums of money. He also new what he wanted a guard dog with a strong mouth, a good nose, courage, hardness and a higly developed protective instinct. It can be seen that Herr Dobermann was more concerned initially with the character of the dog.



To appreciated the breed now we need to know as much as possible about his origin and development. Herr Dobermann did not have a clearly defined breeding program. He did not keep any records of crosses that he did.

Out of the respect for all the work done by Mr dobermann it was clear to Mr Goller that the name of the dobermann connected with the breed forever. In Germany at that time there were only hunting dogs, shepherd dogs, butchers dogs, butcher dogs and pinschers and therefore it was decided the new breed should be called the Dobermann Pinscher, Why he choose the name is unclear because it is very doubtful that the dobermann descended from a pinscher.

Until so far, this book is been written by our chairman off the ducht dobermannclub called D.V.I.N. it’s a very interesting book it describes the history of the dobermann.



As we know is the dobermann a guard dog, bred to working in what way it doesn’t matter.
When I read the discussion, I wonder why people can not have the interest in someone else is doing, the forum must be one to listen to other story’s respect each other opinions. I might say that I have much experience with the breed, and I also know I am not the only one, there are more people who are working and breeding with the dobermann for 25 30 years. I also learn everyday from everyone with a lot of experience, but also from non experienced people. Over the years we trained so much owners with their dobes and I saw a lot of different dogs when you speak about the character, I saw dogs who are to afraid to touch and more, and not only from working lines, you can not blame the dog for his behavior, most of the time the owner is responsible not always but that’s what I notice over the years.

Put 10 breeders together, and they have all different goals and different opinions how the dog should be! They all think they are right, and no one is!
Lets be honest and see what a diversity there is this wonderful creatures. You can do almost everything you wanted, obedience, agility , IPO, KNPV, monidioring, and even do nothing and cuddling and companion.



Yes my dogs are from European lines, why? Because I live here. I can not judge for American ones but there will be nice ones as well no doubt. I must say don’t forget the dobermann is created in Europe!

The fairytale that a working dog is very nervous, come and take a look I have 5 working dogs in the house, I lived in a small community with neighbours on each site. I never hear them complain. An other issue is when the puppy leave the breeder the real life begun, and its to the new owner to make something of it.

And comes to an other point that is what I really worried about, the people who buy a puppy from a puppy brooker, I see it over here they coming in from eastern Europe they say there 8 weeks but in fact there really 4 or 5 weeks. The people like to buy it because they are cheap and cropped. That’s more a problem and a threat to the breed. Btw for a lot of breeds.

Once again I wrote this not personally just how I look at it, I like your forum and we have to try to understand each other, not to judge each other, when we learn to listen and watch we can learn from each other. Cause we share all those wonderful dogs called the Dobermann
 

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I agree with what you say. But the judging that I have seen started with the Europeans telling the Americans how bad their dogs were, how much better the European dogs were, and then using that to sell dog over here. That was about 25 years ago. There were some people here who for whatever reason didn't like the European dogs and didn't want them here. There were a few who mounted a campaign to "Buy American", maybe they felt threatened as breeders, I don't know. I thought it was a tacky thing to do.

The first European Doberman I ever saw was at a dog show many years ago, before I ever heard of Norden Stamm and Franckenhorst. This bitch had been brought to the US by her German owners when they moved to America. She was not entered in the show, they were just walking her around. I stopped to talk to them, and they told me how they were from Germany and had brought her with them. I talked to them for quite awhile and when some Doberman breeders that I knew came by I told them how this was a German Doberman bitch. One woman I remember actually went down on her knees beside the dog exclaiming, "A German Doberman! An Actual German Doberman!". We were all excited to see this dog just because she was from Germany, the homeland of the breed.

Ever since I've had Dobermans there have been regular features on Dobermans in other countries in our breed magazines. I read them all, looked at all the pictures. I loved the look of some of the dogs, particularly Norden Stamm.

I was excited when the European Dobermans started being imported into the U.S. in significant numbers, this would have been approximately 20-25 years ago. I thought the European Doberman had things to offer the American Doberman, and I thought the American Doberman had things to offer the European Doberman. I anticipated a better dog overall coming out of the combination.

But instead we have very little crossing of the two. We have the "working" faction in the U.S. having nothing but bad things to say about the American dogs. We have a lot of imports coming into the US from Europe, but virtually none going the other way. There is no true synergy. And the Europeans will say we don't import your wussy American dogs because they're nothing but weak, scrawny, prancing show dogs. This kind of attitude can do nothing but create bad feelings. I will tell you this elly, my first Doberman was American, and he is the reason I still have the breed today. He and his mother and another dog I knew are the reason I love the breed so much. And they were all American. I have had a dog sired by a German import, and I have known several all European Dobermans, and still what I found in those first three(American Dobermans) is the reason I want to continue having the breed.

I am not a fool, not stupid, not ignorant. I am not someone who thinks character doesn't matter. I *am* someone who loves the breed primarily for the relationship it forms with its humans, the deepest bond I've ever known with an animal. At the same time I think all breeds should be able to do what they were created to do. I had my first Doberman at a schutzhund club for evaluation back in 1978, which he was 9 months old, and in those days schutzhund clubs were few and far between in America, they still aren't common today. As soon as I found one, I had my puppy out there to see what he could do. I hope we can all talk as equals and as people who love the breed and not about one continent or the other having all or none of the quality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
When you are happy with your breed, you must stay that way, there is nothing wrong to create your own line, in fact I think every breeder must try to create his own line, cause that’s your idea of breeding your type of dog you like, and people who also like that would buy just your dogs.

But I think for a lot of people the grass on the other side is always greener, and believe me, also here in Europe there a lot of dogs having health problems, like wobbler cardio CIH vwd and what else, and also from a wrong breeding program, they uses to much the same studs with means that every dog genetic comes out with the same lines.

The last years they developed a program that de breeder may not use the same studdog twice, I must say since then the dober is become more healthier. I bought my last dog in Sweden, because of his bloodlines, I like the weyermuller line, dogs coming out of that line I really like. I have seen them work and see how they are when they don’t work.
But I buy him also there because of the problems mentioned above.

5 years ago I had a dog who gets wobbler on the age of 8 months, he died when he was 18 months, I had 15 years ago one with cancer died when he was 4 years old. So beware were you buy your dog here as well.

But I can guarantee you there are good European lines, but I still think there are good American as well as long as you do your research you sure will find them. I think as you want to use a European line you must take the time, come over and visit the dogs see how they are. And then I am sure you find one that you like and fit in your programm, and also the opposite way. Germany has good stud dogs but they breed with the old lines not much outcrossing.

I can understand your feelings, but don’t hate the world because of a few. My point is the same as yours, its nice to see for me how you all do with your dogs and share some information and learn from each other.
 

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micdobe said:
I was excited when the European Dobermans started being imported into the U.S. in significant numbers, this would have been approximately 20-25 years ago. I thought the European Doberman had things to offer the American Doberman, and I thought the American Doberman had things to offer the European Doberman. I anticipated a better dog overall coming out of the combination. But instead we have very little crossing of the two.

Ok, now I understand where you're comming from. Unfortunetly things like this are out of your control. I'm sure for many people involved the decisions were fear based. The "us v. them" mentality took over any rational thinking. Instead of seeing an opportunity, people saw a threat. And since both sides had different goals in mind for the breed, it was even easier to adopt that mentality that the other side isn't good enough.

I still think the biggest barrier in all of this is the lack of focus on working ability here in NA. I think if the working sports become more popular, it will become easier for the two sides to start seeing eye to eye.
 

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I think "some" people in America felt threatened. Not all by any means. That's why I told the story of the German bitch is saw so many years ago and how people reacted to her.

Why is it that those who are into euro dobermans always think the "problem" is that the Americans don't share the euro point of view? Where is the give on the other side?

I doubt that "working" sports will not become really popular here, people are too busy, people have a lot of other options of things to do with their dogs, I want my dogs to be able to function in a protection role, that's why I take every Doberman to some kind of evaluation. I also took my first Doberman thru extensive PP training. I appreciate correct Doberman temperament. I want my dogs to have it. But if they don't they're still my dogs, I'm not breeding them and I do see them clearly for what they are.

the "working" sports as you refer to them are simply bite sports. And they are sports. They are no more working than a field trial pointer is a working bird dog. Some dogs do both. And they should IMO. But some are specialists. Schutzhund is a very ritualized sport, these days it seems to be more about obedience than anything else. That's why I think any stable dog with good training could do it, there are Border Collies, Labs, and mutts with schutzhund titles. If they were only large enough for the equipment many terriers could easily succeed in schutzhund.

The Doberman is about that, but it is also about "more" than that, at least in the U.S. I can't speak for Europe, the European line dogs I've known were different, mine loved me I'm sure but wasn't comfortable living in the house around me and my other dogs he wanted to be away by himself where he wasn't stressed. He stressed easily. So did his relatives that I knew, altho some expressed it differently, and some stressed over differnt things. He was a holy terror on the "working sport" field, but I wanted more than that.

I think I've also said several times that Monte's mother has a SchA. She also has an AKC conformation championship and is all American. The potential is there but a lot of people are ignoring it.

If the "working" sports became more popular everyone would be using European line dogs and the American line dogs would be relegated to the show ring giving the conformation only type people tacit permission to just forget about temperament. The American Doberman has too many great qualities for me to wan to see that happen. I think I just said this same thing yesterday. Why can't anyone seem to understand it.
 

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micdobe said:
I doubt that "working" sports will not become really popular here, people are too busy, people have a lot of other options of things to do with their dogs
I'll have to agree with you that I don't see working sports becoming too popular in NA. The lifestyle of people here is just so much different then in Europe. The geographies of our cities, the way our culture works and spends it's free time...


micdobe said:
The Doberman is about that, but it is also about "more" than that, at least in the U.S. I can't speak for Europe, the European line dogs I've known were different, mine loved me I'm sure but wasn't comfortable living in the house around me and my other dogs he wanted to be away by himself where he wasn't stressed. He stressed easily. So did his relatives that I knew, altho some expressed it differently, and some stressed over differnt things. He was a holy terror on the "working sport" field, but I wanted more than that.
See that's interesting. I really wonder how much of that is applicable only to the individual dobes you met as opposed to a generalization of all Euro or NA dobes. My personal experience has been opposite, hence my original interest in the Euro dobes. The one Euro I know very intimately is MUCH MUCH more of a velcro dog, more intune and focused on me, then the number of NA dogs I have known. He completely blew my mind with how much more plesant and easier he was to have around. I was already nuts about dobermans before, but when I met him, it was like all the things I love about the dobermans to the power of 2! Also one of the easiest to stress dogs I've known was a NA dobe. He was absolutely beautiful, but I honestly felt so sorry for the poor thing because the silliest things would have him all siezed up. At the same time, he was a very high prey drive dog, and an increadibly squirel hunter :p. He was great and I loved him, but I certainly wouldn't want to see his combination of character in a dog I get.

micdobe said:
If the "working" sports became more popular everyone would be using European line dogs and the American line dogs would be relegated to the show ring giving the conformation only type people tacit permission to just forget about temperament. The American Doberman has too many great qualities for me to wan to see that happen. I think I just said this same thing yesterday. Why can't anyone seem to understand it.
See, that's where I would like to see the NA breeders step up to the plate. People who want the working type dog go to the European breeders for the most part because they feel they have no options in NA. You can't blame them for wanting what's best for them. You have to admit that there are fantastic NA breeders producing amazing working dogs, but unfortunetly there are far too few of these people. I think right now it is up to the NA breeders to proove to every one that their dogs are capable of such tasks. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it!

Aldercrest is a name that comes to my head. I realize they breed from Euro lines, but the point I want to make is that at least they're located in NA. They certainly have earned a great reputation for themselves so it isn't an imposible task for a breeder located in NA to do that. Maybe that argument is a bit of a stretch, but I'm trying over here :) How about Cara's? I think they do a combination of NA and Euro lines. Help me out over here micdobe :) you know NA breeders much better then I do. Who could you give as examples of breeders of NA lines working towards establishing a reputation for dogs with working abilities? I'm sure there are people like that out there!
 

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It's ADlercrest, not ALdercrest. Adler means eagle in German, it's one of Linda Calamia's pet peeves when people call her kennel name Aldercrest. They breed only European dogs and they are breeding from the European show lines, not the working lines, so that isn't even what you've beent alking about. Cara's is the same as Adlercrest. So what?

The thing that keeps striking me in your posts is that you accuse me of formulating an opinion about all European dogs from the handful I've known, yet you are doing the same thing from a handful, or was it even that many, European line Dobermans you have known. Why is it valid for you to do it but not for me.

I'm not into people working for "reputations", I'm thinking of quality Dobermans. Ray Carlisle used to breed American Dobermans before he "went Euro". One of his last American dogs was Cara's Son Of a Butch CD, SchI, who died young of DCM. He wrote on his site that he went looking to Europe for improved health. Which we now know is not to be found in Europe. I think he has produced some spectacularly ugly dogs since he went Euro, dogs that are a lot uglier than his imported foundation bitch, Alida. Again I say they can be both structurally sound and do sports. In fact the two things should go together.

You say people have to go Euro to get dogs to do sports with. We've now come full circle, that's what I said in the beginning, if the sport of schutzhund or mondioring or whatever is what you want to be successful in then that is your goal, not the dog breed, the dog is a tool to use in the sport, twoard your goal. Just be honest about it. I have come across a lot of people who had an American Doberman, got on the Euro bandwagon, got a Euro Doberman, titled it in schutzhund, then got a GSD or a Mal so they could be more competitive in schutzhund. At that point they're about the sport not the breed. Nowhere is it written that a good Doberman has to be able to beat the GSDs and Mals in schutzhund. It's a GSD sport, it has elements that fit GSD character and don't really fit Doberman character or what they were created for, but Dobermans can still do it, and that is neat. I don't need to try to turn them into a Malinois, one European Doberman breeder has even crossed a Doberman with a Malinois, and then bred that dog back to a Doberman, literally trying to creat another breed to be better in the sport. I don't want any part of any of that.

Back to Adlercrest. A dog of their breeding was sold to a woman to protect her son. You may have heard of them the divorced father set the boy's motel room on fire in an attempt to kill him but the child survived, with horrible burns. The father went to prision but eventually got out. He made threats against his son. The mother got the Doberman for protection for her son. When the son went away to college, the mother kept the dog as a house pet, figuring she had earned her retirement. But the dog would not settle into life as a housepet, needed something to do, and eventually went back to the kennel. And yes, Adlercrest and Cara both have kennel dogs. Adlercrest has just posted a litter announcement on several internet forums about their latest litter and said in the announcement that none of these puppie will be "pets".

You want me to give you names of NA breeders, I don't know of what, I've already told you my dog's mother has a SchA, is working for her I, and she has a half sister who has a SchII. There is another poster here who has mentioned that a close relative of her dog has a SchII. These dogs exist you just don't know about them. I think you should do some research and find out what is really happening.

But an anecdote. Back in the 80's before all this importation had really gotten started, there were some schutzhund trials held here. The dogs were almost exclusively American, and they titled. After Ray imported Alida, in 1987 I think it was, she was entered in one of these trials. She finished in 3rd or 4th place, behind American dogs in the scoring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think I agree with lots of zucker said, btw I didn’t say either that the european studs were all bad, I only ment to say that its not all sunshine on this site of the world, I also told that there are a lot of good studs in Germany, may be before you use a European line you have to do more research and don’t go of from a catalogue. I get a bad feeling about your reply’s and have the feeling the words I honestly mend were putting in a way to get the words just what you like to hear.


I also know good breeders wich dogs I saw overhere and working also Canadians like Blitzkrieger and Ascomannis, but again thats personal and thank goodness we have all the freedom to buy were ever we want.

I still don’t understand the struggle you have with the European lines and American lines. See it as a challenge, and produce something and show that you can breed without the European lines!
 

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Are you talking to me? I am not a breeder. I find it very possible to get a Doberman that I am happy with. What is it that I should see as a challenge?

You are doing what every other European I have talked to has done, still insisting no matter how politely that the European dogs are superior to the American dogs.

Remember the breed originated in Europe? Not true. It originated in Germany. Just a different country, like the US is a different country.

Ascomannis is not in Canada. What does Blitzkrieger do, besides breed, anyway?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I know Ascomannis isn't in Canada, Denmark and sometimes puppy's in USA,

This is the last thing I will write about it because I am getting tired to break thru your mind, and the last thing I want to do is argu about it, cause you make your point clear, and get the feeling you lived back 25 years ago.

I think the forum is something to share, also opinion story's etc. you don't have to agree with me and either do I with you.

Also europe isn't a country, and for your information we are all europe borders are not close anymore!

I feel sorry for you, you make it something personal and that is why I quit writing to you. you can say and write anything you like but I would not respond it anymore. Let me the wise man this day.
 

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Now you regress to personal insults instead of an issue.

Europe was not one entity when the Doberman was created; it was a bunch of very separate countreis, it was after all before WWI. You cannot lay claimi to the Doberman breed as European, it was created in Germany, a separate country from Denmark, Holland, France, Italy. The Doberman was in the U.S. only a few years after it was recognized in Germany, I see no relevance to claiming it originated in "Europe", that is like trying to lay claim to it and telling Americans that the Europeans are proprietary of it.

You have said all the "right" things but proceed to continue to say your way and your dogs are superior, I haven't seen one thing from with any other point of view.
 

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Elly I think your original post was also nice. IMO it was not biased. Everyone has a choice to choose Euro. vs Am. I just feel that on both sides NO ONE should put either choice down. It is not worth the time or effort to do so. I think if Micdobe is happy with her choice than so be it, same with Elly.:) Let's face it as long as you love your dogs, care for them, and have fun with them that's all that really matters. I just don't think posting opinions on a forum putting down Euro. or Am. really helps anybody. It just causes upset.
 

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I did not choose Euro. lines because I wanted to do bite work. I choose Euro. dogs based on among other things because I fell in love with my breeders dogs. I felt they were everything I was looking for. I also loved the way they looked. I hope my puppy will be everything and more.
 

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Elly,
Thanks for the post it was interesting to see the pictures.
Preference is preference and that makes the world go round. To all the dobes around the world cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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waiting said:
Elly,
Thanks for the post it was interesting to see the pictures.
Preference is preference and that makes the world go round. To all the dobes around the world cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

salute!! :D
 

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waiting said:
Elly,
Thanks for the post it was interesting to see the pictures.
Preference is preference and that makes the world go round. To all the dobes around the world cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1........I second that.

Naveen
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks guys, for me its a pleasure to do, we have a hugh database with all kinds of pictures.

I felt that I was stocked into something I don't even know it excist, and never comes up in my mind, for me is a dobermann a dobermann where ever in the world he is born! I think I am very easy going with respect for anyones opinion, but I want the same in return.

And yes, if you fell in love with a certain dog you go for it. If the puppy on the avator is yours I can imagine, its a cutie!

I go training now, for you all it is probably night except for the UK and Europe, when I got home I do some search, cause I have more "oldies"with moviestars, and put them here for you.
 

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Okie-dobie said:
Elly I think your original post was also nice. IMO it was not biased. Everyone has a choice to choose Euro. vs Am. I just feel that on both sides NO ONE should put either choice down. It is not worth the time or effort to do so. I think if Micdobe is happy with her choice than so be it, same with Elly.:) Let's face it as long as you love your dogs, care for them, and have fun with them that's all that really matters. I just don't think posting opinions on a forum putting down Euro. or Am. really helps anybody. It just causes upset.
I totally agree,i know that i keep repeating myself but a dobe is a dobe is a dobe!! We luv em come what may be it euro or N.A. or Japanese(Tracy) we would not exchange them for all the money in the world(but i am open to offers for Mischief at this very moment:)
:largegr: :emo11: :help_up_2
 

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And here is the guy who started it all.Thank you Mr Dobermann!!If he had not decided to breed these beautiful dogs of ours would we now be on yorkshireterriertalk.com? :)
 
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