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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I thought I'd share an article that I read in the Pom Review which I thought was very interested. I get a lot of toy magazines even though I don't actively accept judging assignments. The article was information from the AKC Canine Health Foundation Breeder's Symposium and in the syllabus of Peter Vogel DVM, DACVS...he's a specialist in orthopedic surgury, certfied in stemm cell regenerative medicine, micro vascular curgery and critical care......

He said that OFA did not rule out hip dysplasia and was outdated from the 1960's. And that position determined many of the ratings. He said that Dislocation Index (DI) was a better method, DI is Penn Hip. He said a newer better method was DLS, dorsolateral sublaxuation radiograph.......just wondered if you guys know more about these tests etc. He said OfA was a predictive method of Hip dysplasia but does not rule it out.......


He also said that 50% of the dogs with excellent hips will be found to be dysplastic using DI or DLS........67% with good OFA hips are dysplastic and most of the fair ofa are dysplastic. DANG! It didn't say where he got this research or if it was his opinion or what and on what breed. He said that puppies should be done at 14-16 weeks and no later than 20 weeks.....so that intervention can be done to prevent painful changes and that doing hips at 2 years age was too late to prevent pain as they age.


He also said that dysplasia is a common defect and is a polygenic multiple gene cause. Excellent hipped parents can produce puppies with dysplasia. He said it can be exacerbated by trauma, diet, and weight. He also said that the position done during Xrays are not always proper and influence the rating of excellent, fair, etc.

I know there are lots of vets and experience people on the list. Does anyone have more information on this? I have OFA'd my dogs but this concerned me. Do any of you have experience with these tests or opinions?
 

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I did know a Labrador breeder years ago who had her stud dog xrayed but he got a fair rating which she did not like. SO she had the xrays repeated 3 TIMES before she finally got a good rating? SO yes I believe the Vet taking the xrays can sometimes not take a correct view. OR they can change the position of the xray to change the rating. I guess a lot depends on who is viewing and rating them at the other end too!!!!
 

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Any way you can link to a version of that article online?

There are some very interesting posits in that--but I am always highly leery of folks who do not cite their sources!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
hips

I couldn't find a link but this is the where I got the article. It was printed in the Pom Review which is the official Publication of the American Pomeranian Club, Inc. It is in their July/Aug 2009 on page 72. Here is the title

"AKC Canine Health Foundation Breeder's Symposium
College of veterinary Medicine, Western University of Health Sciences
Pomona, California - report by Geneva Coats, RN
Saturday, April 4, 2009

It had several topics. I paraphrased but she quoted the information as from his syllabus.
His lecture was: "Current concepts regarding caine hip dysplasia" by Peter Vogel DVM, DACVS.

Maybe someone else can find the link. It concerned me to and why I have asked the forum if they had heard this.
 

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I

He also said that 50% of the dogs with excellent hips will be found to be dysplastic using DI or DLS........67% with good OFA hips are dysplastic and most of the fair ofa are dysplastic. DANG! It didn't say where he got this research or if it was his opinion or what and on what breed. He said that puppies should be done at 14-16 weeks and no later than 20 weeks.....so that intervention can be done to prevent painful changes and that doing hips at 2 years age was too late to prevent pain as they age.
A lot of Vizsla people are doing both Penn Hip and OFA. I have seen some fair hips get excellent Penn Hip ratings. And some fairs get fair readings also.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The article went on to say that ofa was initiated in 1966 with the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs not decreasing by even 1%. My concern is should I penn hip and is OFA really that wrong? And does doing Penn hip a good thing to do at an early age to prevent suffering. It's confusing to me.

Why would you do both?

I've called the pom review to ask permission to reprint it on the forum.
 

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Why would you do both?

I've called the pom review to ask permission to reprint it on the forum.
The peole I've known who've done both ahve done it for a few reasons:
1. wanting to get more info on hips before breeding
2. possibly having a fair dog and anting to ensure no hd before breeding

I bred my bitch with an excellent hip history to a fair with a good penn hip. He has a good hip history and is the only fair in the line and laterally. But we both wanted more info.

My current puppy's grandfather's line has a fair hip history with excellent OFAs. The dam of my puppy (out of himi) is Excellent as are all her siblings with excellent Penn Hips. As a side note, she is a half-sibling to the fair I bred to.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ofa

The article says that if you penn hip pups before 20 weeks, you can fix the hips with surgery. Not that anyone would want to do that but if......I'm not sure. If you wait till they are 2, it is too late. I have asked the editor for permission to reprint the article. I hope that I can share it completely.

Thanks for that information on doing both.
 

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Penn Hip is MUCH more accurate. But you don't find that many vets in all areas that can do it. One Ortho specialist vet I know thinks OFA is pretty much a joke but it beats nothing.
Yup my vet would be one of those....he said he has seen OFA good sent off to OVC come back not clear. Frankly, I have done OVC and Pennhip the last few times.

I did redo hips on one bitch when I got mixed results from OVC and Pennhip - and four days after doing the xrays she came into heat. We redid them and the vet was so surprised by the difference he sent them back to both and also OFA....I will post the results when I get them in on another thread. He said that they have been told about heat cycles causing differences but he's never seen it personally.
 

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some real scientific info on hip dysplasia which is in fact a polygenic trait ( ie determined by a number of genes rather than just one... much like eye colour) however recent work has suggested that certain gene loci may be MORE or LESS important to the actual phenoypic appearance and severity of the condition. Several groups in the US are currently trying to determine a molecular genetic approach to screening for HD rather than what I would refer to as a qualitative approach like reading xrays. In any qualitative evaluation, position, skill and opinion of the individuals reading the films will cause alterations in evaluation.



Genetic Structure of Susceptibility Traits for Hip Dysplasia and Microsatellite Informativeness of an Outcrossed Canine Pedigree -- Todhunter et al. 94 (1): 39 -- Journal of Heredity

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1687006&blobtype=pdf

this one I don't have access to at home, but may be able to get in full from work. This is an interesting comparison of "young" evaluation of HD

Comparison of two palpation, four radiographic and...[Vet Radiol Ultrasound. 2000 Nov-Dec] - PubMed Result
 

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The article went on to say that ofa was initiated in 1966 with the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs not decreasing by even 1%. My concern is should I penn hip and is OFA really that wrong? And does doing Penn hip a good thing to do at an early age to prevent suffering. It's confusing to me.

Why would you do both?
Because they measure different things.

Comparing PennHIP and OFA
 

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I did both penn hip and OFA on my dog, OFA was good, penn hip was "hips tighter than 70% of all Dobermans surveyed, no DJD"
It does tell you two things. One, that is is not dysplastic now, and two, that he is at very low risk of becoming arthritic and having degenerative changes.
 

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The bottom line is that OFAs have a huge amount of subjectivity to them, whereas the Penn Hip is totally objective. Also, radiographs for OFA can be manipulated. I've seen myself how you can reposition dogs/radiograph technique and take films until they make bad hips look better (or even good), whereas, there is no possibility of this sort of "cheating" with PH. There was one veterinarian who had a reputation with local breeders to be "the one" to use for all of their OFA radiographs...I don't think it takes a genius to figure out why!
 

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The article says that if you penn hip pups before 20 weeks, you can fix the hips with surgery. Not that anyone would want to do that but if......I'm not sure. If you wait till they are 2, it is too late. I have asked the editor for permission to reprint the article. I hope that I can share it completely.

Thanks for that information on doing both.
You would want to fix the hips surgically to allow the dog to have a relatively normal life, instead of being crippled with hip pain...this is one surgery that ultimately saves the owner a lot of money over the life of their dog.
 

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The bottom line is that OFAs have a huge amount of subjectivity to them, whereas the Penn Hip is totally objective. Also, radiographs for OFA can be manipulated. I've seen myself how you can reposition dogs/radiograph technique and take films until they make bad hips look better (or even good), whereas, there is no possibility of this sort of "cheating" with PH. There was one veterinarian who had a reputation with local breeders to be "the one" to use for all of their OFA radiographs...I don't think it takes a genius to figure out why!
The only downside I see to Penn Hipp is that the number/percentage you get is compared to the dogs in your breed who have had the Penn Hipp done. Don't get me wrong, I do still believe you get some good info from Penn Hipp.
 
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