wow...I wasn't saying that to make it seem like she's the perfect breeder, and I apologize if it sounded differently than it was intended (internet isn't very good at communicating tone of voice). I definitely didn't mean to start a huge debate. I was just told that those are good things to get from the breeder, and I remembered she had given me those after I did the previous post so i just wanted to add that she did provide those things. TracyJo is right...I was just looking for a little support since i'm new to the breed. When I joined this website, I was hoping it could be a place where I could feel comfortable asking questions without feeling like a complete idiot. But, I guess perhaps this isn't the right place for me...It's a good thing the internet is full of forums and helpful people. I thank everyone who gave positive comments.
He's getting cropped!
Apollo gets his ears cropped Thursday! I'm excited...but at the same time, I'm really nervous. I found a really great vet that's experienced with Dobie ear cropping. She's very helpful, and has Dobermans herself. We were a little concerned that his age (now 14 weeks) might present a problem since she recommends not cropping after 12 weeks, but she examined his ears and said a medium length crop would be ok. So, I have to drop him off tomorrow morning, they're going to do the surgery on Thursday morning, and I'll be picking him up Friday. I contacted the breeder and let her know what's going on, and she gave me some advice and said I could call her with any questions and whatnot...but I guess I'm just worried that I'll somehow mess up his ears. I've heard so many stories about crops gone wrong, and about the ears just not wanting to stand on some dogs...I guess it just worries me. So...basically, any words of encouragement and reassurance would be great...thanks 
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I swear I'm not trying to argue this point... But does "it's good that you had it cropped" imply that it's bad to not have her/him cropped? And "who" exactly is it good for? I'm not asking because I'm "against" cropping neccessarily but I don't think it's bad not to. What purpose - other than aesthetic - would it serve for me to crop my pups ears?greenkouki said:i'm sure your pup will have sharper look now, and it's good that you had it cropped.
your not an idiot at all, you gave another being a good home, and applaud that greatly. nothing wrong with being new to anything, im new, i dont even have a dobie. the only way you would be a terrible person is if you bought him from a puppy mill
cropping provokes an alert conscience, but yes it's mainly aesthetic, there is nothing wrong with an uncropped dog... Its even illegal to do it in the UK if i'm not mistaken
cropping provokes an alert conscience, but yes it's mainly aesthetic, there is nothing wrong with an uncropped dog... Its even illegal to do it in the UK if i'm not mistaken
Don't judge us all on a few. For the most part this is a pretty cool place to learn and discuss and even joke around. Stick around and you'll seeIloveMyDobie31 said:wow...I wasn't saying that to make it seem like she's the perfect breeder, and I apologize if it sounded differently than it was intended (internet isn't very good at communicating tone of voice). I definitely didn't mean to start a huge debate. I was just told that those are good things to get from the breeder, and I remembered she had given me those after I did the previous post so i just wanted to add that she did provide those things. TracyJo is right...I was just looking for a little support since i'm new to the breed. When I joined this website, I was hoping it could be a place where I could feel comfortable asking questions without feeling like a complete idiot. But, I guess perhaps this isn't the right place for me...It's a good thing the internet is full of forums and helpful people. I thank everyone who gave positive comments.
Hope you're baby is doing well and recovers quickly. I know you're missing him a great deal. I'll be a basket case when Chi goes in for her spay next month and has to stay over night!
I apologize for however you have been made to feel ilovemydobe31, the whole point was you didn't come on here to feel like you are getting chastised for your breeders decisions, and that seemed to be what was directed your way intentionally or not. You are here for support and we are here to give it to you! Please stick around and here and hear the some of us out. Remember for every different person out there, there is a different opinion to follow.
Sometimes people have good points or just wish to express their view, and the way they come across is VERY questionable.
Hope your baby is doing great!!! Can't wait to see pics of the new ears when they are ready!!
Sometimes people have good points or just wish to express their view, and the way they come across is VERY questionable.
Hope your baby is doing great!!! Can't wait to see pics of the new ears when they are ready!!
My sarcasm stems from defensiveness and uneducablility (if that is a word) of others.TracyJo said:Is sarcasm absolutely needed? CoAls-Mom you are obviously very knowledgable of this breed and have a wealth of information to share; however, more often than not you come off very harsh. Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar? Or, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all... Do you honestly think that people will "listen" to you if you constantly chastise those who don't know as much as you or don't agree with you?
Apollo's mom came in looking for support and advice not criticism or sarcasm. Lighten up a little, will ya?
I've heard of the 2 phrases you mentioned but don't believe in them. My first post in this thread was not harsh, was not sarcastic and yet the OP gets defensive. I offer advise when I can and I also offer education when I can. If you don't like my delivery, please feel free to ignore.
I don't think I can ignore it though when you are just being nasty to those who are innocent. I doubt that "uneducability" is an actual word and it is my belief that nobody is beyond education. If you feel as though you can't educate people maybe you need to step back and look at how you deliver your information. In addition, the OP didn't get defensive until you retorted with a nasty, sarcastic comment. A little bit of diplomacy goes a long way.... How about the saying "sarcasm is a tool of the weak", have you heard that one?CoAl-s-Mom said:My sarcasm stems from defensiveness and uneducablility (if that is a word) of others.
I've heard of the 2 phrases you mentioned but don't believe in them. My first post in this thread was not harsh, was not sarcastic and yet the OP gets defensive. I offer advise when I can and I also offer education when I can. If you don't like my delivery, please feel free to ignore.
There's no need for you to apologize. You aren't responsible for other people's actions. I'm sure people mean well...but you're right, I'm not sure how the focus shifted to the breeder. The fact is, people do have different opinions, and different ways of expressing them. I should also probably learn to take criticism better.
Either way, thanks for the apology.
Either way, thanks for the apology.
IloveMyDobie31 said:There's no need for you to apologize. You aren't responsible for other people's actions. I'm sure people mean well...but you're right, I'm not sure how the focus shifted to the breeder. The fact is, people do have different opinions, and different ways of expressing them. I should also probably learn to take criticism better.
Either way, thanks for the apology.
To respond like that you are obviously a very good person and we are very happy to have you here!!!!
Actually I should have used "INeducability". I never said I didn't feel like I could educate people. There are some people however that don't want to learn. and I'm not saying that is the case with the OP. If you honestly believe that there are people out there that aren't beyond education, then all I have to say is you haven't been on the boards long enough!TracyJo said:I don't think I can ignore it though when you are just being nasty to those who are innocent. I doubt that "uneducability" is an actual word and it is my belief that nobody is beyond education. If you feel as though you can't educate people maybe you need to step back and look at how you deliver your information. In addition, the OP didn't get defensive until you retorted with a nasty, sarcastic comment. A little bit of diplomacy goes a long way.... How about the saying "sarcasm is a tool of the weak", have you heard that one?
And no I haven't heard of your latest quote and don't believe it either! Like I said, I wasn't sarcastic in my first post on this thread. What actually came out as sarcastic was just giving up trying to explain. Nobody like to hear that their breeder isn't topnotch and come back with, but this and but that and I get tired of it.
Then maybe for your own peace of mind take a step back and a break from the boards that frustrate you... I haven't seen in this particular thread or with this particular person where you have tried to explain or educate. Not sure how you can rationalize giving up on one person because others have been difficult.CoAl-s-Mom said:Actually I should have used "INeducability". I never said I didn't feel like I could educate people. There are some people however that don't want to learn. and I'm not saying that is the case with the OP. If you honestly believe that there are people out there that aren't beyond education, then all I have to say is you haven't been on the boards long enough!
And no I haven't heard of your latest quote and don't believe it either! Like I said, I wasn't sarcastic in my first post on this thread. What actually came out as sarcastic was just giving up trying to explain. Nobody like to hear that their breeder isn't topnotch and come back with, but this and but that and I get tired of it.
I tried to explain in my first post on the first page about how reputable breeders crop ears.TracyJo said:Then maybe for your own peace of mind take a step back and a break from the boards that frustrate you... I haven't seen in this particular thread or with this particular person where you have tried to explain or educate. Not sure how you can rationalize giving up on one person because others have been difficult.
IloveMyDobie31 said:There's no need for you to apologize. You aren't responsible for other people's actions. I'm sure people mean well...but you're right, I'm not sure how the focus shifted to the breeder. The fact is, people do have different opinions, and different ways of expressing them. I should also probably learn to take criticism better.
Either way, thanks for the apology.
It's very common on message boards for topics to go in other directions. Some threads even go way more off topic than this did.
Just for the sake of discussion, that depends ...IloveMyDobie31 said:p.s. I was also given a full health guarentee, and a pedigree...so she can't be that horrible of a breeder right??
*Anyone* can guarantee *anything*. What did the breeder DO to try to ensure there wouldn't be health problems? In other words, what good is a health guarantee if nothing was done to try to prevent health problems? A health guarantee should presumably be backed up by full health testing on the parents - hip and elbow evaluations, cardiac ultrasounds and Holter monitors, vWD DNA tests, full thyroid panels, eye exams, liver/kidney panels, etc.
A pedigree can be completely falsified. A pedigree can be a mishmash of dogs that never should have been bred. Don't get me wrong - a pedigree is a wonderful thing and is the first step in being able to do all kinds of research on your puppy/dog, but the presence of a pedigree alone is not an indicator of whether the breeder is any good or not.
CoAl-s-Mom said:My sarcasm stems from defensiveness and uneducablility (if that is a word) of others.
I've heard of the 2 phrases you mentioned but don't believe in them. My first post in this thread was not harsh, was not sarcastic and yet the OP gets defensive. I offer advise when I can and I also offer education when I can. If you don't like my delivery, please feel free to ignore.
She didn't get defensive, she just responded. Then you got sarcastic. I have to agree with Tracy, if you don't like where something is going, or you're "tired" of hearing this and that about something, and you don't feel you can respond without the sarcasm, just don't. We don't want this board to be like that, there have been a few people run off by that approach that were good people and just want to be with other dobe lovers and not to be jumped on for making a simple remark.
There have been many posts on here that I could have gotten nasty in about things I didn't agree with, but what's the point. I'd rather suck it up, and try to make my point when things cool down, rather than make someone feel bad.
BTW- thanks MaryandDobes for the info you posted for the threadstarter
thank you for clarifying...my previous dog was unfortunately from a mall pet store. I was 5 and I begged for a dog, and my parents really didn't know any better. Unfortunately, he died five months ago at the age of 15 from kidney failure, so when I decided to get another dog, I really wanted to try to do it "the right way". I did look up a lot of information about chosing a breeder, and chosing the right puppy, and one of the things that was common in all the resources was the irrelevance of AKC registration, and the importance of health screening, and pedigrees. I saw the health guarentee as a bonus I guess. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm new to the whole breeder idea, so it's possible that though I had good intentions, I may have chosen a bad breeder....so I guess I should've been looking for a breeder that crops instead...
I wouldn't worry about a breeder that crops or doesn't crop. To me that doesn't make a good breeder!
I went through a dobe rescue for mine. I am not the kind of person who can handle a 12 week old puppy without losing my mind. Puppies are great, cute, fun, funny and all that good stuff. But for me that is way to much work. All the potty training, crate training, and all the other stuff. I admire people who rescue as well as people who get puppies.
I hope to see pictures of your baby soon! I hope you enjoy it here. There are a lot of really nice and wonderful people here.
I went through a dobe rescue for mine. I am not the kind of person who can handle a 12 week old puppy without losing my mind. Puppies are great, cute, fun, funny and all that good stuff. But for me that is way to much work. All the potty training, crate training, and all the other stuff. I admire people who rescue as well as people who get puppies.
I hope to see pictures of your baby soon! I hope you enjoy it here. There are a lot of really nice and wonderful people here.
No, I think you're misunderstanding some of the things people have said to you, and maybe some of the things you've read as well. I don't know where you would have read even once, much less over and over again, that AKC registration is "irrelevant". What you may have read is that AKC registration by itself is not a guarantee of quality. It's always better to buy a dog that is AKC registered rather than one that isn't, but that is the bare bottom level of what you should be looking for.
There is an important difference between complete health testing and a "health guarantee". Many irresopnsible and unethical breeders as well as commercial breeders give so-called health guartantees. But how good are they? Most of them say they will replace the puppy if it dies or is crippled from certain specified conditions. If the puppy is still alive, you usually have to return it to the breeder in order to get the replacement puppy. The breeders who require this know that many people will be attached to their original puppy and won't want to send it back, especially since many of these breeders tell the owner they are going to put the puppy to sleep when they get it back.
Many of them also require that the original dog's ear be standing correctly and that it not be spayed or neutered, or the guarantee is void. None of those things have anything to do with whether they sold you a healthy puppy or not.
Full and correct health screening for the breed consists of testing for hereditary diseases in the parents before the breeding is done. Usually responsible breeders don't give health guarantees because they know there are no guarantees no matter how carefully they screened the parents. They can only try to lessen the odds that you will get an unhealthy puppy. vWD is the only disease there is a DNA test for as yet, so they can guarantee that, but with other conditions they can test the parents, and know from their testinig what the parents are "likely" to produce. Still, if the puppy has a congenital or hereditary problem most responsible breeders will refund the buyer's money and let them keep the puppy, or if the puppy dies, they will replace it if they had sold a puppy that turned out to be unhealthy. Or at least refund part of your money.
An example. When I got my first Doberman, the breeder wouldn't let me have the puppy I wanted, because she felt he was the best one in the litter, and she wanted a show career for him. So I took my "second choice" puppy. Shortly after his ears ere cropped, she noticed there was something wrong with one of his eyes. He was seen by several vets, treated, and some improvement was made, but in the end he was left with one eye in which the pupil was always dilated, it could not contract. He could see out of the eye, altho it took us awhile to determine that.
During this process, without my asking for it, the breeder said to me that she would give me my first choice puppy instead because she couldn't be sure the other puppy would ever be "right". I declined, and kept the puppy, and it was the best decision I ever made. But my point is, without a "health guarantee" the breeder did the responsible thing in offering me another puppy instead.
You should not have looked for a breeder who crops, as if that was all you needed to look for, rather I would say, pass up those breeders who don't crop. Then choose from among those who do after considering other aspects.
There is an important difference between complete health testing and a "health guarantee". Many irresopnsible and unethical breeders as well as commercial breeders give so-called health guartantees. But how good are they? Most of them say they will replace the puppy if it dies or is crippled from certain specified conditions. If the puppy is still alive, you usually have to return it to the breeder in order to get the replacement puppy. The breeders who require this know that many people will be attached to their original puppy and won't want to send it back, especially since many of these breeders tell the owner they are going to put the puppy to sleep when they get it back.
Many of them also require that the original dog's ear be standing correctly and that it not be spayed or neutered, or the guarantee is void. None of those things have anything to do with whether they sold you a healthy puppy or not.
Full and correct health screening for the breed consists of testing for hereditary diseases in the parents before the breeding is done. Usually responsible breeders don't give health guarantees because they know there are no guarantees no matter how carefully they screened the parents. They can only try to lessen the odds that you will get an unhealthy puppy. vWD is the only disease there is a DNA test for as yet, so they can guarantee that, but with other conditions they can test the parents, and know from their testinig what the parents are "likely" to produce. Still, if the puppy has a congenital or hereditary problem most responsible breeders will refund the buyer's money and let them keep the puppy, or if the puppy dies, they will replace it if they had sold a puppy that turned out to be unhealthy. Or at least refund part of your money.
An example. When I got my first Doberman, the breeder wouldn't let me have the puppy I wanted, because she felt he was the best one in the litter, and she wanted a show career for him. So I took my "second choice" puppy. Shortly after his ears ere cropped, she noticed there was something wrong with one of his eyes. He was seen by several vets, treated, and some improvement was made, but in the end he was left with one eye in which the pupil was always dilated, it could not contract. He could see out of the eye, altho it took us awhile to determine that.
During this process, without my asking for it, the breeder said to me that she would give me my first choice puppy instead because she couldn't be sure the other puppy would ever be "right". I declined, and kept the puppy, and it was the best decision I ever made. But my point is, without a "health guarantee" the breeder did the responsible thing in offering me another puppy instead.
You should not have looked for a breeder who crops, as if that was all you needed to look for, rather I would say, pass up those breeders who don't crop. Then choose from among those who do after considering other aspects.
:3dbiggrin Bravo Micdobe! Excellant clarification about the relevance of health testing.
Very well put Micdobe!
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