[havenminx]

I just wanted to point out that the Canis Panther was bred to be a protection dog in the thick of "less secure neighbourhoods." They are supposed to look menacing and intimidating; a threatening demeanor probably wards off the majority of would-be intruders.

That being said, there are nine other reasons someone would want a dog like this:
1. They have smooth (tidy, low-maintenance, mostly odor-free coats)
2. They are lean and athletic (unlike some of the mastiff breeds) so they can make superb jogging companions (offering personal protection while they`re at it)
3. They are exceptionally cuddly and devoted and affectionate with family members (think of how cuddly Danes, Dobies, Pits, and Labs are)
4. They have tight, "non-drooly jowls," (unlike many of the larger breeds)
5. They love swimming and retrieving (the Lab in them helps to make them a fabulous family dog)
6. They are easily trained, highly receptive to obedience (Labs, Dobes, Pits, and Danes are all highly receptive to training and form an exceptionally close, devoted bond to their handler)
7. While not long-lived dogs, they are renowned for good health (due to being scrupulously bred from members of the four core breeds who tested absolutely clear of any breed-specific health issues such as hip displaysia)
8. They are calm and quiet indoors if given sufficient exercise and stimulation (they are actually less demanding than a purebred Doberman.)
9. Despite the Am Staff blood, (and in spite of their innate protective instincts) they have a surprisingly low prey-drive. Most of the time, they do not seem to be escape artists or roamers or chasers or scrappers with other dogs. They can be raised to get along well with any other pets. These dogs are well-adapted to urban living, especially if they are exercised and stimulated sufficiently.

While it is true many people seek them out for protection, these dogs can be socialized to "soften the edge," much as Dobermans can be.

Sounds nice on paper, but sorry, that is not how mixing breeds works. You can't just pick and choose traits like you are at a make-your-own-omelet bar. How on earth do you know that the retrieving gene of the Lab got passed on instead of the horrible hips? Or the lifespan of the pit bull is what a Canis Panther ends up with instead of the short lifespan of a Dane or Dobe?

 

[Kova]

River, I don`t blame you for not being impressed. There is not a lot of documentation offered for up-front viewing, that is true. It is wise to be skeptical, for sure--but I don`t see how it is illogical that all these traits would so fetchingly combine into a convenient package. Danes are low-energy indoors, AmStaffs are not usually barkers, are usually calm and affectionate indoors with their handler while bursting with energy outdoors. Even Dobermans, the highest energy of the lot, are sweet cuddly couch potatoes if you run them for forty-five minutes every morning and take them for a walk every evening, especially if you squeeze play time and some interesting training sessions in each day as well. (What I love about Dobes is their tendency to follow you from room to room! I find that sooo endearing!) Labs, also, easily adapt into calm indoor-dogs if allowed to swim, play fetch, and go on walks every day. They don`t even need to be "run" in order to be calm inside dogs.

Admittedly, I have no convincing verification on the Canis Panther`s capacity as a jogging companion. Do you really think they would be too heavy-set to perform well on daily forty-five minute jogs?

 

[Kova]

Havenmix, you make good points! (I would never want to assume the responsibilities of a breeder.) However, don`t you consider it ironic that the Canis Panther is really following in the footsteps of its ancestor, the Doberman Pinscher? I mean, when you study the history of the Doberman, Louis Dobermann bred greyhounds, Great Danes, German Pinschers, Manchester Terriers, Thuringen Shepherds (ouch, did I spell that right?) and a few other breeds I can`t quite recall off the cuff--and yeah, that was probably a bit of a crapshoot, too, in the beginning.

The Canis Panther breed could not be as perfectly consistent as one that had been studiously bred for over a hundred years. But, you know, many breeds originated in the twentieth century--especially a few terrier breeds. You breed the dogs whose traits you admire. If you are breeding Decker Terriers, for instance (another breed I was interested in, fulfilled eight out of the nine traits I had set--except that it sadly has a VERY high prey drive for small animals!) then you would not breed any dog, no matter how beautiful and healthy and sweet--that did not exhibit proven hunting traits.

That being said, it is obvious that most of the people buying Canis Panthers are buying family pets to also serve as intimidating guard dogs. Ironically, I could not personally care less about "guarding instincts." I just want a smooth-coated athletic dog (of any size!) who doesn`t drool, loves to swim, loves to train, loves to cuddle, loves to play fetch, and has low prey-drive.

 

[SieYa]

8 put of 9 traits? Are you buying a car?


W. O. W.

You'll be getting a genetic crapshoot. There is zero way to guarantee you'll get the 'traits' you seem to desire so profusely.

Just my .02
Most of the 'traits' you're looking for come from training and proper socialization....

 

[River]

River, I don`t blame you for not being impressed. There is not a lot of documentation offered for up-front viewing, that is true. It is wise to be skeptical, for sure--but I don`t see how it is illogical that all these traits would so fetchingly combine into a convenient package. Danes are low-energy indoors, AmStaffs are not usually barkers, are usually calm and affectionate indoors with their handler while bursting with energy outdoors. Even Dobermans, the highest energy of the lot, are sweet cuddly couch potatoes if you run them for forty-five minutes every morning and take them for a walk every evening, especially if you squeeze play time and some interesting training sessions in each day as well. (What I love about Dobes is their tendency to follow you from room to room! I find that sooo endearing!) Labs, also, easily adapt into calm indoor-dogs if allowed to swim, play fetch, and go on walks every day. They don`t even need to be "run" in order to be calm inside dogs.

Admittedly, I have no convincing verification on the Canis Panther`s capacity as a jogging companion. Do you really think they would be too heavy-set to perform well on daily forty-five minute jogs?

Heh, I'm always skeptical. It drives some of my family crazy, believe me. But in this case, with nothing to back up what the breed founder claims, there's a reason for being skeptical. Yes, the Doberman was created from different breeds, but it was a different time- purebred dogs and breed registries are only a little over a hundred years old and were very new at the time that Herr Doberman was working on his own dog. The AKC was founded in 1884 and the British Kennel Club in 1873. Before that, dogs were more type-y and less to a kennel club breed standard. The environment that Herr Dobermann worked in was different than our dog world today.

And even if the Canis Panther is following in the Dobe's footsteps, it's only doing so in the sense that the breed's founder is tossing together dogs to try and create a new breed. Which doesn't mean jack if the dog is short lived, isn't healthy and can't work. Add to that if the breeder is driven by profits, and knows they can cash in on people's desire to have an intimidating looking dog, there is far less incentive to have a strong, confident dog. Package that all up in a slick advertising packet, put it on the internet, and bam. That's very different than Herr Dobermann's goals.

Then there's the breeds involved. Take a look at Labs. Labradors have a split in their breed between hunting lines and show lines, and American vs. English style Labs. Temperament, the ability to settle, and prey drive vary between those lines. You also have a large number of BYB pet Labrador breeders who are churning out hyper pet dogs who do not have the ability to settle and are not bred for temperament. I've seen many of those in obedience and Nosework classes.

So while it's true that some Labs have the ability to settle in the house, that isn't true of all Labs. Some Labrador lines are much, much higher energy than others. What line of Labs are they using to contribute to the Canis Panther?

As for Dobermans, there is also a split between working and show. Perhaps not as dramatic as it is in breeds like setters, GSDs, and Labs, but it is there. Dobermans also have a high incidence of health problems, as do Great Danes. Neither breed is particularly long-lived. Dobermans are prone to same sex aggression, Staffies can be more prone to dog aggression than other breeds, and Danes also can be dog aggressive.

High prey drive can be inherited from Dobermans, some lines of Labs, and Staffies. Possibly from Danes too, they were originally developed as a hunting dog and a hunting dog with low prey drive isn't worth much. I'll admit I don't know as much about modern day Danes, though. Prey drive in some lines may be lower.

There's also a lack of transparency with health testing. Dobes and Danes have serious health problems in both breeds. Danes may live to 8 if you're lucky. Dobes are typically 9-11, with DCM affecting about 50% of the breed. Both Dobermans and Great Danes are at risk for Wobblers, DCM, osteosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and hip issues.

That is roughly 50% of the genetic contribution that is going into the Canis Panther, and there is no record or documentation of health testing on the one official breeder's website. Healthy outcrossing, like what the Dalmatian breeders did to eliminate LUA, is a good thing. Crossing two breeds like Dobes and Danes that have the same health problems, without health testing the dogs, isn't.

Then there's Labradors, which have a huge range of energy and temperaments depending on what lines your dog comes from, and who bred your dog. Labs are prone to hip and elbow dysplasia, cataracts and progressive retinal atrophy (eyes), and epilepsy. They're also one of the most popular breeds in the U.S., and like I said earlier, there are a ton of breeders who are producing Labs without care for health or temperament. Labs also shed, and they do have a double coat, which can be passed on to puppies- even crossbreeds.

I also question temperaments. With any crossbreed, you have the chance of inheriting traits from any of the ancestors. It takes generations to fix particular traits, and even then within a single breed, you have a varying level of energy, prey drive, etc.

As for a jogging companion- it's possible. But larger dogs that come from breeding stock that is prone to hip and joint problems wouldn't be my first choice. Larger dogs do not live as long. Also consider that with a short lived dog, you will not have many years to enjoy the dog's company while jogging. By the time the dog is 6 or 7 (sooner if he develops hip/elbow problems or arthritis), you will be looking at having to cut back on the exercise and possibly retire the dog. I compare a dog like that to some of the blue heelers and herding crosses I see around here, who are still athletic and happy at 10 years or older, and I just shake my head.

Longevity, structure, and health are very important. If you're looking for an active, short coated dog that can go with you as a jogging companion and that will be healthy and long lived, I wouldn't choose a crossbreed with no proof of good health or working ability to back up the founder's claims.

It might be worth looking into greyhound or greyhound crossbreeds. Or even other sighthounds. Some folks are crossing greyhounds with salukis, for example. You'll get a longer lived, short coated, athletic dog that is clean in the house and doesn't drool. Dog aggression is fairly low in those dogs too. And sheesh, this is a book. I'm going to quit writing now and go get some lunch. :roflmao:

 

[Artemis]

Longevity, structure, and health are very important. If you're looking for an active, short coated dog that can go with you as a jogging companion and that will be healthy and long lived, I wouldn't choose a crossbreed with no proof of good health or working ability to back up the founder's claims.

It might be worth looking into greyhound or greyhound crossbreeds. Or even other sighthounds. Some folks are crossing greyhounds with salukis, for example. You'll get a longer lived, short coated, athletic dog that is clean in the house and doesn't drool. Dog aggression is fairly low in those dogs too. And sheesh, this is a book. I'm going to quit writing now and go get some lunch. :roflmao:

I would back this. And add the Vizsla to that list. Active, short-coated, can run for 45 minutes or more, one of the longer lived breeds (according to the Kennel Club survey done in the UK), don't have too many significant health problems. Bonus they are super velcro and cuddly, and they are cat-like in their cleanliness.

 

[Dobejazz]

The canis panthers that end up at IDR + usually have temperment issues and or wobblers

 

[Kova]

Artemis, yes, I have looked into the Vizsla! Actually, to be honest, their degree of hyper energy slightly frightens me. I do very much appreciate a dog`s energy and stamina to be a jogging companion...but I worry that the Vizsla may be one of those dogs (such as the Siberian Husky) who is not satiated into calm indoor behavior even after being running 7km in 45 minutes. Also, Blue Heelers and Border Collies (neither of which have "smooth" coats, although the Heeler has a nice short coat) intimidate me with their need for mental challenges. I don`t really want to put that much effort into complex training (hardcore herding breeds require a real "job,") other than exercise and fetching games and half an hour of daily (mostly basic) obedience training.

I also like Weimaraners--but again, I don`t trust that they are easily or happily quiet. Like Vizslas, I believe that Weimaraners are easily "inspired" to bark. But thank you so much for the suggestion!

 

[Kova]

River, thank you so much for the detailed reply! I am very appreciative of your informed advice! I am leery of sight hound breeds (I have admired the Rhodesian Ridgeback for quite a while) because they usually do NOT like swimming. (Keep in mind, I think Doberman Pinschers are absolutely perfect EXCEPT for the fact that they do not generally enjoy watersport.) I am beginning to think that I need to relax at least one of my "inflexible nine conditions." What you guys are pointing out about the Canis Panther is a bit of a reality check and a wake-up call. I was buying into what I WANT to believe about them...and the advertisements make it all too easy. I also spoke with several Canis Panther owners-- but most of them were not interested in working their dogs or taking them swimming or jogging or even socializing them (because they are trying to raise "guard dogs") so it is pretty difficult to get a sound sense of what these dogs are consistently capable of if sufficiently socialized from puppies.

 

[mommyblaze3]

And every one of the pit bulls and pit mixes I've encountered have been big sopping sweethearts, which is in the dozens.

Agreed!

The only dog I've ever been bitten by was my in-law's bichon frise. That dog is a neurotic mess.

These look similar to the cane corso to me. Not impressed. I can't imagine all the purebred dogs are from good bloodlines. I doubt my breeder would send one of her bitches or sires to mate with a lab or pitbull. I don't think any reputable breeder would.

 

[Jazi]

My comments in purple

I just wanted to point out that the Canis Panther was bred to be a protection dog in the thick of "less secure neighbourhoods." They are supposed to look menacing and intimidating; a threatening demeanor probably wards off the majority of would-be intruders.

That being said, there are nine other reasons someone would want a dog like this:
1. They have smooth (tidy, low-maintenance, mostly odor-free coats)
Isn't that also true of dobermans?
2. They are lean and athletic (unlike some of the mastiff breeds) so they can make superb jogging companions (offering personal protection while they`re at it)
Isn't that also true of dobermans?
3. They are exceptionally cuddly and devoted and affectionate with family members (think of how cuddly Danes, Dobies, Pits, and Labs are)
Isn't that also true of dobermans?
4. They have tight, "non-drooly jowls," (unlike many of the larger breeds)
Isn't that also true of dobermans?
5. They love swimming and retrieving (the Lab in them helps to make them a fabulous family dog)
Uh... addressed below...
6. They are easily trained, highly receptive to obedience (Labs, Dobes, Pits, and Danes are all highly receptive to training and form an exceptionally close, devoted bond to their handler)Isn't that also true of dobermans?
7. While not long-lived dogs, they are renowned for good health (due to being scrupulously bred from members of the four core breeds who tested absolutely clear of any breed-specific health issues such as hip displaysia)
Finding it really hard to believe that mixing in multiple breeds that have similar health problems and half of which CAN'T be health tested for magically fixes all health problems in a breed. Just saying.
8. They are calm and quiet indoors if given sufficient exercise and stimulation (they are actually less demanding than a purebred Doberman.)
I take my dobe out to work him for an hour or two and he's an excellent house dog. Give him something fun to chew and he'll entertain himself for hours.
9. Despite the Am Staff blood, (and in spite of their innate protective instincts) they have a surprisingly low prey-drive. Most of the time, they do not seem to be escape artists or roamers or chasers or scrappers with other dogs. They can be raised to get along well with any other pets. These dogs are well-adapted to urban living, especially if they are exercised and stimulated sufficiently.
I'm... pretty sure that prey drive is a large part of the foundation for any bite sport, and possibly personal protection. While the dogs are moved to defense/fight later, most young puppies need the prey drive to get started. So to my limited knowledge, it doesn't make sense that a good bitesport/protection dog would have low prey drive. That said, there are PLENTY of working doberman on this board that are getting along just fine with the family's other pets including small fuzzies. Hell, my dobe is cat safe (though she still hates him) and has for the most part left my snakes alone, and can currently be recalled off chasing rabbits and squirrels in the yard.

While it is true many people seek them out for protection, these dogs can be socialized to "soften the edge," much as Dobermans can be.

No need for encouragement! He just gets right in the pool. His brother and sister have gone swimming (as did he when he was still with his breeder), and his brother and mother and grandmother all have gone dock-diving. It's called "get a dog from parents that do the same" if you want a swimming doberman.

There's a lot of dobes that dock dive or swim on here. Some of them show lines, some of them working lines. Some of them from BYBs!

This is something I hate about fad crossbreeds. The people who buy into them are looking for something that already exists in one of the breeds thrown in the mix. Hey, you know what makes a great non-shedding, playful and intelligent, family companion? An actual POODLE, just get a standard since 90% of labradoodles look like matted standards with terrible conformation. You know what makes a great low-shedding sleek and muscular velcro and intelligent protective jogging buddy that you can take swimming? An actual DOBERMAN.

 

[RedFawnRising]

I live with both a Decker and a Doberman.

I think you'd be happy with either breed.

Just find a reputable breeder and tell them you're looking for lower prey drive in a puppy.

It never ceases to amaze me how folks think F1 crosses are automatically a "new breed," and how they never seem to look at the proven quality (or egregious lack thereof) of the animals that are put into that cross.

Then they think they can win genetic roulette, every time, just because they want what they want.

 

[Kova]

RedFawnRising, you mentioned that you live with both a Decker and a Doberman? I have also only recently discovered Deckers while researching Rat Terriers. I am impressed by the reputedly great health statistics of the breed, and the glowing reports of Decker owners regarding these dogs` temperament as pets. Does the Decker you live with live to hunt? (At first I felt guilty even aspiring to get a dog who was specifically bred with such a passion to hunt--but a Decker breeder told me he thought that the jogging exercise on a leash with playtime should be enough to satisfy a Decker.) Does your Decker like to swim, too?

What about the Doberman you live with? Does he or she enjoy water? I am not interested even in swimming ability, as I can always purchase a lifejacket for the dog--but we live in the sunny Okanagan of B.C., Canada--and our four-month long summers are spent between two lakes (both a thirty-minute JOG from my house) and so I am interested in the dog`s willingness to get into the water.

 

[Kova]

Jazi, you have renewed my initial interest in aspiring towards a purebred Doberman! I am interested now in scoping out some Doberman breeders and asking questions. (The nice thing about Dobermans, is most of them have "low prey-drive" which makes it safer to to trust a well-socialized, obedience-trained Dobie off the leash at a dog park or on a hike compared to, say, a Decker Terrier--although I was told that Deckers do like to hunt close to you.) Where does your breeder live? Is there a website I might be able to check out for your breeder`s kennel which may offer a contact email?

 

[Kova]

* Also, I think that I am using the term "low prey drive," perhaps out of context. I am specifically thinking of a dog`s desire to gamely chase and maul, either small animals ("prey) or else to scrap with other dogs. I want a dog I can trust off-leash when we go on hikes or when we play ball at the dog park or when we go swimming at the beach. I feel confident from the Dobermans that I have worked with that they can quite easily be socialized and trained right from puppyhood to be reliable in such circumstances...as the kind of "prey drive" I am thinking of is mainly seen in terriers and hounds or a lot of the large spitz breeds (huskies, malamutes, etc.) have a desire to hunt and molest livestock.

 

[Jazi]

I wouldn't say any terrier breed has low prey drive, or any breed commonly used in protection. Like I said, prey drive is a good part of foundation for bitework training. My dog can be recalled off animals- does not mean he won't chase and kill if not called off. In order to get any dog reliable off leash, extensive training needs to be utilized.

I'd do a lot more research before throwing yourself into Doberman.

Edit: also remember that many Doberman, especially males, are dog selective, dog aggressive, or same sex aggressive. As said, I think you need more research.

 

[kaloric]

Seems I missed this thread when it first came up.

While I have negligible interest in reading-up on this fad, I think a couple things are worth noting:

1) There's a difference between breeds and designer-mutts. In the former, there's intentional blending in an effort to create true-breeding bloodlines, aka, "a breed". In the latter, there are no bloodlines to speak of, just intentionally-created mutts.

2) The Doberman itself is an intentional mix of established breeds, none of which KFL Dobermann saw as particularly suitable for what <i>he</i> wanted, so he and his successor blended as they saw fit to create our relatively Johnny-come-lately breed.

Even if this is being cultivated as an actual breed, the name they came up with is incredibly stupid. As is the chain-bling harness that one pictured example is wearing. It all screams "pretentious poser thug" louder than anything.

My "top 5 Dangerous Breeds" list includes
1. Spoiled Chihuahua
2. Spoiled Miniature Dachshund
3 Spoiled Yorkshire Terrier
4. Spoiled Toy Poodle
5. Spoiled Anything-else-not-listed-above

And on what authority do you say that "everyone" knows "most pit mixes tend to be more aggressive"?

Sounds about right!

 

[Kova]

Well, as far as the name goes...I think the original breeder/designer himself fancied rather flamboyant names. His name was Cleotha Jones, he called himself "Scorpio," and the name "Canis Panther" is a reference to the predominantly black colour of the breed, the desired sleekness, the reputed ferocity (the dog was meant to reputably intimidate in less than reputable neighbourhoods) and, perhaps, a symbolic yet not-so-subtle reference to the poetry of the man himself, for the same reasons as the dog.

 

[Kova]

Jazi, I absolutely agree with you that I need to do a LOT more research! I am not entering into "new dog acquisition" lightly. I have at least another two years before the new dog becomes a reality for my family--so in the meantime, I genuinely welcome the opportunity to learn as much as I can. I fostered quite a number of dogs in my twenties (I am 38 now with a four-year-old son who will be at least six when we actually get a puppy) and several of them were reputably "aggressive" in nature, some purebreds and some mixed breeds. What I learned, is that with the extensive exercise I offered them, every last one of them almost immediately settled into calm, affable house companions whose aggressive symptoms seemed to vanish by magic. However, I took these dogs out at least three times a day--all over town. And I trained each one of them to heel off the lead (beginning in safe, enclosed areas.) Nowadays I look back on those times and I suspect I took risks that simply turned out okay, because these days I would not want to trust a dog off-lead in public areas for all kinds of reasons. Still...do you think it is okay to trust a Doberman (raised and trained from a pup) off the leash in the areas I mentioned? (dog park, hiking trail, beach)

 

[Jazi]

My dog is yet a puppy. As he grows into himself I will need to do more training to make sure I have bolting behaviours under control. Even still, where I live has a leash law, and I have access to fenced areas, so I don't see the need to take the risk.

Some dogs are trustworthy off leash and some aren't. Again, breeding and training need to go hands in hand with this. Some Doberman absolutely should not be off leash no matter what. Others can be trained to be very reliable. I've seen hunting terriers be the same- some can do it and some can't.