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I have been reading this thread and really appreciate everyone's contribution.
I planned on feeding Orijen to my new puppy (I don't have yet) but now I am completely confused.

It seems I have to choose the lesser of the evils...controversial ingredients, possible links to DMC, other ingredients leading to possible organ damage or cancer, and lastly cost of the food.

I reviewed several dog foods from the following link because it seemed like many people feed Purina Pro Plan but it has 19 controversial and 3 harmful ingredients listed as opposed to Orijen with has zero in both categories. Of course Origen is on the DCM list and is crazy expensive, not that cost is the most important.

I just want a dry kibble that is mostly good for my precious dog, yet not so expensive I need a second job!
(homemade is not an option for the most part because I hate cooking but willing to add some things like eggs, veggies, etc. and raw is out... the thought of raw makes me nauseated)

Your thoughts please and thank you...

https://www.pawdiet.com/ingredients/purina-pro-plan-dog-food-ingredients-review/
It kind of looks like your post, because it's on page 3 of a discussion of grain free and it's relationship to DCM may have been totally overlooked. You might want to try reposting as a new thread.

But here are some thoughts on the issue. I've been feeding dogs (mostly Dobermans since 1959 and I've used (at the recommendation of a long ago vet) almost exclusively kibble manufactured by big companies who use nutritionists who formulate food, keep actual dogs whose role is to test foods to make sure that they actually accomplish what they are supposed to accomplish. It's worked well for me and I'm somewhat leery of taking recommendations offered by some of the purported experts who offer their opinions and rate various kibble.

I'm really curious about these ingredients that are supposed to organ damage and/or cancer. That's a new one--but I admit I don't really keep up with reading the various lists of good/bad/indifferent kibbles.

So what are the 19 controversial ingredients and the 3 harmful ingredients in ProPlan?

For the record--most of my dogs (the exception was a dog with a kidney infection that we--his vets and I--could not control and who was euthanized at nearly 8 because the ongoing elevated temperature was killing him slowly) but the rest of them on average were between 9 and 10 years and while 2 actually died because of DCM/CHF in the case of 1 and sudden death a nearly 10 in the case of another all the rest may have had cardio but it wasn't what killed them--most were euthanized because of other issues but all were either between 9 and 10 or over 10 and my geriatric guy now will be 14 in November.

For nearly that last 20 years I've fed ProPlan--mostly the Focus Sensative Skin and Stomach (salmon and rice) or Focus Chicken and Rice.

This is a kibble that has kept my dogs in excellent shape--bright eyed, full of energy, glossy coat, appropriate weight without needing to feed large quantities of food, small firm stools--that's what I look for in terms of results and that's what I've gotten from the ProPlan diets.

Not every dog will do well on the same diet--but most of the diets created by the big food companies are not computer formulations but are actually tested on real live dogs to make sure they perform as promised.

While the prescription diets are often more expensive than the non-prescription diets I find the ProPlan to be reasonably priced--it isn't part of the prescription line.

I don't home cook--but I do add things to my dogs diets from puppyhood on--and I don't feed puppy food or large breed puppy food--I feed kibble that is ALS (all life stages)--and this has some advantages that aren't always met with a puppy food for the larger breeds at least. I add either cottage cheese or yogurt, hard boiled eggs, small quantities of ground beef, ground turkey or chicken--cooked to a sloppy Joe consistency and the dogs get a couple of tablespoonsful with a meal. I do this with the puppies because I want them to eat every meal eagerly--so I want the habit to be formed when they are young. I don't bother adding vegetables to the kibble--they get bits of anything I happen to be fixing for me--lettuce, celery, tomatoes, green pepper, most fruit (no one except me really likes grapefruit)--one of the cats is particularly fond of melon.

So I'm still really curious about the list of controversial things and the 3 harmful things that are supposed to be in ProPlan.

Don't know that this answers any of your questions but it's what I've done for quite a long time--seems to work.

For the record--I do not feed any formula that uses lamb as the main meat protein source--over the years I've tried lamb formulas occasionally and none of tem seemed to provide what my Dobermans needed--the first thing that happened was their coats started looking dry and dull and the next thing that happened was that they became very hard to keep in good weight.

dobebug
 

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I have been reading this thread and really appreciate everyone's contribution.
I planned on feeding Orijen to my new puppy (I don't have yet) but now I am completely confused.

It seems I have to choose the lesser of the evils...controversial ingredients, possible links to DMC, other ingredients leading to possible organ damage or cancer, and lastly cost of the food.

I reviewed several dog foods from the following link because it seemed like many people feed Purina Pro Plan but it has 19 controversial and 3 harmful ingredients listed as opposed to Orijen with has zero in both categories. Of course Origen is on the DCM list and is crazy expensive, not that cost is the most important.

I just want a dry kibble that is mostly good for my precious dog, yet not so expensive I need a second job!
(homemade is not an option for the most part because I hate cooking but willing to add some things like eggs, veggies, etc. and raw is out... the thought of raw makes me nauseated)

Your thoughts please and thank you...

https://www.pawdiet.com/ingredients/purina-pro-plan-dog-food-ingredients-review/
My first response is...the person running this website "rating" petfoods....the qualifications they list on their own webpage (per https://www.pawdiet.com/about/): "Behind this website is Arby Abraamyan, founder and developer of PawDiet. Arby graduated from UCSD in 2015 with degrees in Math, Economics, and Computer Science."

In what way is this person at ALL qualified to evaluate pet food? I see zero relevant degrees in any animal science, nutrition, veterinary school, etc. It's VERY easy for people to "look" like an expert on the internet, to regurgitate any sort of pseudo-science that is out there, and especially to make you buy into the marketing claims made by many companies. I wouldn't give anything this person says a second thought, personally.

There are much better ways to evaluate what your dog is eating. Your veterinarian. A veterinary nutritionist. If you want internet help, there are good resources, too:

These are both from the World Small Animal Veterinary Council:

WSAVA Selecting Pet Food for your Dog

The Savvy Dog Owner's Guide to Nutrition on the Internet

Tufts University also has a really good nutrition page with articles and resources: https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/
 

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-------

I reviewed several dog foods from the following link because it seemed like many people feed Purina Pro Plan but it has 19 controversial and 3 harmful ingredients listed as opposed to Orijen with has zero in both categories. Of course Origen is on the DCM list and is crazy expensive, not that cost is the most important.

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Your thoughts please and thank you...

https://www.pawdiet.com/ingredients/purina-pro-plan-dog-food-ingredients-review/

My thought on the information in the Paw Diet link is "Umm... if you think the food is so bad, why do you have a link on your website for places to buy it?".

One reason that brands like Purina, Hills, and the like have been around so long, and have such a large following, is that they are overall good foods that large numbers of dogs and cats do well on.

The irony of expensive, supper-premium foods is that every single one I tried, my dogs didn't do well on. As a matter of fact, on one highly rated brand, my Standard Rat Terrier developed acute pancreatitis, while my mutt turned into a walking snowstorm she had so much dandruff.
 

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Hoss recently had a trip to his cardiologist for his first well check......we discussed dog kibble........his recommendation was Purina Pro Focus.
He stated this........other companies proclaim to conduct studies.....for a specialist Purina provides answers with the science to back up their information. So.......Pro Plan it is for our Dobe.
 

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Hoss recently had a trip to his cardiologist for his first well check......we discussed dog kibble........his recommendation was Purina Pro Focus.
He stated this........other companies proclaim to conduct studies.....for a specialist Purina provides answers with the science to back up their information. So.......Pro Plan it is for our Dobe.
Many, many years ago my then Vet made the same sort of recommendation and for nearly all of the time that I've had Dobes I've followed it.

Food information was a lot harder to get then--no internet but my vet said deal with the big companies--they actually do studies. Purina was one of his recommendation even then (nearly 60 years ago) all of the other four companies no longer exist but my cats ate Hills/Science Diet from the 1970's on--and I've fed Iams/Eukanuba and the dogs and I were happy with it and more recently Royal Canin is one I've used some of their prescription diets--again with success. But Purina ProPlan remains my go to food and has been for over 20 years now.

For all of those companies--if you can't find answers to questions about the food on line an e-mail or phone call to any of them will get you everything you every wanted to know.

And from time to time I try the latest hot seller in the new foods--I've had some interesting results--like the highly touted kibble that my Aussie (who would eat anything) said wasn't food and he was moving if I wasn't going to feed him better. Or my experiences with lamb--over the years--three different manufacturers--the only common link was lamb--exactly what happened varied but chronic diarrhea was one of the things and for all dog dull and dry looking coat and difficulty maintaining weight. Lamb evidenty works for some breeds but it sure didn't for my Dobermans.

And it turned out recently that as far as grain free goes--one dog didn't like it--evidently he liked his carbs as grain--not potato or lentils. Soft stools with all of them---not enough of the right kind of fiber.

But I've had very good luck with ProPlan's salmon and rice (by whatever name--it's been through three name changes since I first started routinely feeding it.)

dobebug
 

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....But I've had very good luck with ProPlan's salmon and rice (by whatever name--it's been through three name changes since I first started routinely feeding it.)

dobebug
I think its current name is "Purina Pro Plan Focus Sensitive Skin & Stomach Salmon & Rice‎"

It's the package changes that bother me. I head to the store (or search the net) with a certain picture in my mind; if they change the colors on the bag or even the dog's picture, I'm lost.
 

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Mocha
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After about 5 weeks, Mocha has fully transitioned to the Pro Plan SSS salmon and rice as of today. Yeah, 5 weeks may be a long transition period but given her history with that sensitive digestive system of hers, I felt it was better to be safe than sorry.
Throughout the transition period, her stool has gotten slightly bigger and a bit softer but nothing major that has me worried. I think we may need to cut back on her intake; she's getting 1 1/2 cups morning and evening, and about 1 cup around lunchtime. The lunchtime feeding is a leftover from the Rx food days; the internal specialist suggested 2 cups morning and evening and 1 cup around lunchtime which I initially thought a lot but it worked so we stuck with it.
I think we're going to either go to 1/2 cup at lunchtime or completely cut it out and see how Mocha's weight and stool are. As long as she doesn't start losing weight, 3 - 3/12 cups a day should be fine.
One thing I have noticed though, her coat looks a lot better than it did when she was on the Rx food so that's a big plus :)
 

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Hoss is doing great on Purina Pro Plan Focus....chicken......since I put him on this food he has gained some unwanted pounds........so I cut his food back.
Was getting four cups a day total.......now getting a total of 3 cups per day...ah--hem......that's measuring cups !!!! LOL
Funny thing is .......he appears to notice his shortage............after he eats his reduced portion......Hoss Dobe Smacks his food container.........then he finally gives up and fetches a toy for his entertainment. He recent trip to the cardio doc was interesting regarding weight determination........this doc used his fingers and felt the rib bones...........he told me I should be able to find the rib bone ...and move my fingers in between the bones ........if I have difficulty being able to get in between the rib bones that would be an indication to reduced the dogs weight. So Hoss has to lose 10 pounds..........and he is pissed off about this reduction in food.
 

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After about 5 weeks, Mocha has fully transitioned to the Pro Plan SSS salmon and rice as of today. Yeah, 5 weeks may be a long transition period but given her history with that sensitive digestive system of hers, I felt it was better to be safe than sorry.
Throughout the transition period, her stool has gotten slightly bigger and a bit softer but nothing major that has me worried. I think we may need to cut back on her intake; she's getting 1 1/2 cups morning and evening, and about 1 cup around lunchtime. The lunchtime feeding is a leftover from the Rx food days; the internal specialist suggested 2 cups morning and evening and 1 cup around lunchtime which I initially thought a lot but it worked so we stuck with it.
I think we're going to either go to 1/2 cup at lunchtime or completely cut it out and see how Mocha's weight and stool are. As long as she doesn't start losing weight, 3 - 3/12 cups a day should be fine.
One thing I have noticed though, her coat looks a lot better than it did when she was on the Rx food so that's a big plus :)
Hoss is doing great on Purina Pro Plan Focus....chicken......since I put him on this food he has gained some unwanted pounds........so I cut his food back.
Was getting four cups a day total.......now getting a total of 3 cups per day...ah--hem......that's measuring cups !!!! LOL
Funny thing is .......he appears to notice his shortage............after he eats his reduced portion......Hoss Dobe Smacks his food container.........then he finally gives up and fetches a toy for his entertainment. He recent trip to the cardio doc was interesting regarding weight determination........this doc used his fingers and felt the rib bones...........he told me I should be able to find the rib bone ...and move my fingers in between the bones ........if I have difficulty being able to get in between the rib bones that would be an indication to reduced the dogs weight. So Hoss has to lose 10 pounds..........and he is pissed off about this reduction in food.
The PPP SS food is a fairly high calorie food (429 calories/cup) so, depending on what you fed before, it's very possible that your dogs were eating fewer calories and that's why you need to cut back.

For comparison, Richter (neutered, about 75 pounds, 7 years old), gets two meals a day, each meal is 1 1/2 cups. Sypha (intact female, about 65 pounds, almost 4 years old), gets two meals a day, only 1 1/4 cups per meal. Both in great shape.
 

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The PPP SS food is a fairly high calorie food (429 calories/cup) so, depending on what you fed before, it's very possible that your dogs were eating fewer calories and that's why you need to cut back.

For comparison, Richter (neutered, about 75 pounds, 7 years old), gets two meals a day, each meal is 1 1/2 cups. Sypha (intact female, about 65 pounds, almost 4 years old), gets two meals a day, only 1 1/4 cups per meal. Both in great shape.
I think you're absolutely correct. The reason the doc told us to start with 5 cups a day of the Rx food was because she said it was low calorie/low (or medium, can't remember) protein and to watch Mocha's weight...she filled out from 40 to 60 pounds and is now right around 64 pounds (probably could stand to lose 3-4 pounds) so if the Pro Plan is high calorie, no way can we stick with the old feeding amounts. But if she does do well on this, it'll save us around $50 per month which is nice :)
 

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Yeah Meadow...was feeding Earthborn Lamb......reads 370 calories per cup ........versus Pro Plans 429 per cup.........
Hoss sure loves the proplan........HE WANTS MORE !!!!! Yum!
 

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I give Taurine to my doberman because the vet highly recommended it. They checked her heart and said her body was not producing enough taurine. I give her 1000mg a day and crush up the pills and mix it in her food. Heart issues can be common in larger dog breeds and giving them grain-free food doesn't helped since now there are studies linking grain-free food to heart murmurs and other heart issues. So I stopped giving her grain-free food and now I give her Taurine. At the very least it does no harm to give your dog Taurine even if they may not need it. I wouldn't risk it if you feel like your dog needs it. Not sure this is helpful or not but its just something I've been looking into a lot more lately. Good luck!
 

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We had our dobe on a grain free diet and one morning she was panting, drooling and couldn't function. Called VCA and they sent us to CVCA in Maryland. Did an EKG and showed early signs of DCM. Had us immediately get off grain free and add supplements from puritan pride. Both powder and tablet of taurine and carnitine. At 6 month checkup all bad factors and measurement greatly improved. Next checkup if all goes well should be off supplements.
 

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ZuriBug
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I have stickied this thread while the FDA investigation is ongoing.

For those on FB, the FB group "Taurine-Deficient (Nutritional) Cardiomyopathy" has so many educational files - I highly recommend it. https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/permalink/2263711440553707/

Within the group, they chart confirmed cases of nutritional DCM (group members' dogs), and what foods they were eating. By far, Acana and Zignature have been the worst culprits, but Fromm and Taste of the Wild have several cases, and many many others have been implicated.

My dogs have been on Proplan for a couple of months now, and are doing great.
MeadowCat I am a member on that FB group as well and have learned so much there. Highly recommend.
 

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Discussion Starter #76
Salmon a la Veg has Herring Meal and fish broth in it. His intolerances may not be as extensive as you think? (Dry)

If nothing else, at least that formula is grain-inclusive. I'm not sure what to recommend - I've not looked carefully at all the formulas.



Same link I posted above :)

UPDATE; About a year ago my male started having the same issues when I first learned he has a high intolerance for white fish and sure enough Fromm Salmon and Veg changed their ingredients. Both my dogs now eat Fromm Pork and Applesauce
 

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Still feeding Annamaet here. ;)
 
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