Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm starting to feel like there is no hope for Duchess giving her toys when we say give...
I just recently taught her how to hold the dumbell...and she will hold it for however long I say and then give it when I say so...which is a good sign...although she doesnt like to take the dumbell..so that is probably the only reason why she is willing to give the dumbell up...Im proud that she can do that though lol...a dumbell is the important thing that she would need to learn.
When she was a puppy...we taught her give like it is said to teach them by saying "give" and then giving them a treat after they do it on command...I never understood why this would work...cause to me it comes off as a bribe...although she would never see the treat...she would catch on when she felt she isnt getting one after one time of not getting a treat...and in this case she is too smart for the standard "give" and reward to actually work effectively.
because we will be working on "give" and using treats...she is more than willing to drop whatever she has...she will give fine once or twice without getting a treat after that...but once she realizes she isnt getting a treat she just will not give up a toy at all!

She cringes her teeth...so tight you can't open her mouth at all! If you try to hold on and wait it out...in hopes she get's tired of holding it...she will start closing her eyes while still holding on...If you lift it up she will just stand up on her back legs...cause she knows we are only 5' 8" and can only reach so high...even if we could reach higher by standing on something she would still hold on for as long as she could...and by then I don't know if that would teach her to "give"....
we never played tug of war with her as a puppy...and she seemed to catch on to the "game" at a young age even then...
she use to have this big plush ball that she sucked on...and she would fall asleep with it in her mouth after sucking on it...when she eventually left it we could grab it other than that only a treat would work...she runs away with socks...and underwear...and same thing...
you would think there would be a better and smarter way to teach dogs how to give! lol
I used a toy as a reward yesterday at training and our trainer was suprised how much she insisted on holding on to the toy...it was a rope toy...
I tossed it to her as a reward and then she decided to hold on to it all while waiting in line to do a recall...she performed the recall fine...finished fine...and then we did it twice! the trainer suggested holding the toy in such a way that it is very uncomfortable for her to continue to hold on...and man Duch would do a summersault(sp) before that would work.
our trainer said she would have to come up with something else to try...
......but yea....she just seems impossible...its her only weakness...lol or shall I say "strength" for being able to hold on like she does?lol
help! :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,169 Posts
LOL Poor you! Just last night Kratty and I were in the chat room talking about how there is probably nothing we couldn't train these dogs, and if we can't teach them to do it - it's because we aren't teaching right! That said though, I understand your frustration! It took us forever to figure out how to get Chi to bring and release whatever it was in her mouth - she has to be carrying something around all the time, a shoe, the remote, a t-shirt, whatever she can find, she carries and brings to me.
How much clicker work have you done with Duch? The dog quickly learns that a treat will follow the click, just sometimes it takes longer for the treat to arrive. Maybe if you show her the treat, give the release command, click as soon as she releases and then treat a few times, you could make some progress. I know that Chi and Petri both will get just as excited when they see the clicker come out of the drawer as they do when they see a bowl full of hot dog bits. I'd spend several days with very short sessions of immediate clicks and treats every single time and then maybe a click every time with verbal praise but a click/treat only every other time. Kind of make it a lottery. She might get a treat if she releases but she certainly won't get a treat if she doesn't, type of thing. I don't think it will take her long to catch on to the new game, as long as you keep it positive and a fun game. Keep her guessing on when that treat is coming - and don't always hand her the treat, toss it away from you occassionally, or up so she has to catch it - that will make it even more of a game for her and keep her on her toes...

What came of the parasite problem? I dreamt of maggots last night thanks to that conversation!!! LOL
 

·
Still Here Despite Rumour
Joined
·
4,376 Posts
Now i had the opposite problem,i could not get Tia to hold the dumbell,she does that now and releases on the command give,we were told to push against their lips with increasing pressure giving the command OUT! till release, then reward. O.B. is such fun till you hit a problem but with work you WILL sort it,you have to be positive.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
675 Posts
Ah, the clicker, you just gave me an idea. One way to use the clicker is to wait until the dog does the behavior you want, then click and treat. That's after you teach the dog that the click sound means whatever it's doing at that moment is what you want it to do. When the dog thoroughly understands that, then you can use the clicker to "mark" the correct behaivor at the very instant it occurs, so the dog will know which behavior it was that got her the reward. Then you give her the treat/reward. In Duchess' case, you could casually wait while she plays with a toy, until she puts it down on her own. When she does, click and then treat. You don't have to use a command at that point, in fact it's usually not recommended. Once she knows putting a toy down earns her a treat then you can start giving her a toy and expect her to give it up. This could take time but it should work. Another thing is to use a second toy identical to the first one. You might have to remove all but one toy for awhile and say take her outside and throw a toy for her, then when she has it throw the second toy. Most dogs will drop the first toy to go after the second toy, altho some will try to hold onto both.

Most trainers would like to have your problem, I think, she shows good determination, and you're ahead if they like to hold the dumbbell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
What came of the parasite problem? I dreamt of maggots last night thanks to that conversation!!! LOL
I believe they were just maggots...from the bag b.c now that the floor is all dry I havent seen one. I looked at a picture of a maggot and it looks more like a maggot! I didn't find a great picture of the different worms...but from what I saw...doesnt seem like they were worms...and like I said they were mostly by the bag of some garbage that was by the garbage cans...and it has been hot here. but I seemed to have cleaned them all up :) and they weren't in her fresh poop. when my mom gets back on saturday Im going to tell her and suggest a vet checkup though just in case :)

lol but back to the topic...lol when we are outside playing...I can usually get her to trade or let go by holding up a different toy to play with...
but in the house...sometimes a treat isnt even worth it to her letting whatever she has go. I need to have treats in my pocket I guess all the time...and I guess randomly work with her on give...
cause once she knows I have treats though...even after letting go once and receiving a treat...its almost like she no longer has interest in even taking the toy...and just focuses on receiving a treat...I think she has an ON/OFF switch on when she wants to give...when she wants a treat...when she doesnt care about the treat...and when she doesnt care about the toy lol.
Does that book that you have click to calm that we talk about for coco have normal clicker training stuff too?
as of right now...I could probably enter her in a carnival and make a game out of trying to get the toy from her grip lol. like one of those games that people never win lol. thats what its like.
oh it is so frustrating. haha. cause the more you try to pry it from her mouth the harder she bites down...
I can't even explain how good she is at avoiding "give"
also its like im hesitent to work with her on it...cause it always seems to fail...and once she gets that urge to not want to give it...there is no getting it back...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In Duchess' case, you could casually wait while she plays with a toy, until she puts it down on her own. When she does, click and then treat.
yeah the clicker seems like a good idea you guys...especially b.c it saves me from having to say "give" and then her just continuing to hold on.

Another thing is to use a second toy identical to the first one. You might have to remove all but one toy for awhile and say take her outside and throw a toy for her, then when she has it throw the second toy. Most dogs will drop the first toy to go after the second toy, altho some will try to hold onto both.
we do that outside when we are playing in the yard and it works nicely for casual playing...but the problem is that when were not holding and getting ready to throw another toy she figures why bother giving the toy she already has...she doesnt think about how it may be fun to chase it at that point...she only realizes its fun to chase after I get it from her somehow and I throw it.

there is actually only one actual toy that she likes to play with while Im at the computer...it is a link of 3 rubber rings...and she will bring it to me and act like she wants to play....when I say "give" she will open her mouth and Ill say GOOD girl and throw it...and she will bring it back to me...and I don't even have to use a treat! but this is the only case lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Most trainers would like to have your problem, I think, she shows good determination, and you're ahead if they like to hold the dumbbell.
she is definately determined lol. It only took me about 15 min. to teach her to actually hold the dumbell and not to keep opening her mouth a little bit causing it to fall out...but she didn't really know her job was to hold on to it yet...
but I was so scared she was going to treat it like everything else...she likes holding the dumbell...but she doesnt like me trying to convince her to take it by putting it in her mouth myself so far...I think she will get the hang of that though once she is more familiar with what im trying to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,169 Posts
No, Click to Calm doesn't touch on any of this stuff. Here is a link to a yahoo group that will be able to give you some really great and inventive ideas on how to employ clicker training with Duch right now: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ClickerSolutions/ . These guys can come up with some of the most off the wall ideas for teaching, it's really fun just to browse through the different threads and read all the different advice and ideas.
But all in all, what micdobe said is right on. The click isn't going to tell her to release the object, it's going to tell her "good job, reward is on the way" after she releases.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,942 Posts
I didn't have time to read the whole thing, and my computer is having "issues", so I may not be on target with this suggestion. But are you trying to teach her to give or drop it?

If that is the issue, get out some very yummy treats that she will want to eat over holding the toy or dumbbell. Keep the treats hidden in your pocket. Let her take it and hold on to it, but as soon as you say, drop it, put the food in front of her nose, she will drop the object to get her reward. Be sure to praise. Then give it back and start all over. Let her take it, then praise her for doing that, then add the give.
Then once she gets the concept gradually decrease the treats (just used to teach her the concept) b/c she will then understand what the word give means. Go from there with lots of praise. That is how I taught the command and it worked great. I started out with a very soft and long fleece tug toy to teach the give command, b/c it is a favorite game and he loves the tug just as much as the treats. But I was just teaching him concepts and words. It may or may not work with your Duch.

Yes, you are ahead of the game if she doesn't want to let it go, wanting to pick it up and keep it is good. I just know you guys are going to do awesome in obedience!
My male is training in open, he doesn't like holding the dumbbell in one place for very long, like in a front, but he does love to prance around with it and carry it as long as I will let him, he has no problems with the fetching part either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
thanks guys all great ideas! I will hopefully be able to update you all someday with good news...but Its going to take awhile haha.
 

·
just a member
Joined
·
2,996 Posts
I have found that if you have an avid retriever, it is easier to teach give. In order for the game to continue, they will have to give you the object. Not sure if Duchess does this or not, but if she likes to fetch a favorite toy, you might be able to work with that. One of the things we always did was ours had something in here mouth, like her toys, we ask her to always give it to us. Once she did, we thanked her and gave it back. This taught her that if she does give it us, she will get it back. We do this alot still, so when it comes to taking away something she shouldn't have, makes it easier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,589 Posts
The hardest thing so far I've taught Lexus was to bring and hold, she would want to, for one, go get it and drop it half way back, then once we defeated that problem, she didn't want to hold onto anything until I told her to let go :) I think it took the longest to conquire that problem, now she will hold stuff for me as long as I tell her, halaluahaha:) She has always been more then happy to release though!


A little less formal than her dumbbell, but she's got the grasp of it now. I think it is one of her least favorite commands though.

Good luck, let us know how it is turning out for her!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have a quick question for holding on to the dumbell how long do they have to hold it for typically? I havent gotten to that part in the book Im reading...I paused my reading till Im confident with the stuff im teaching her now.
Lexus looks great and sounds like she performs great! I know once duchess knows it real well...she is going to be holding my purse...keys...and I will finally be able to have my hands free for once when I take her places. lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,593 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
here is a link to a video of Duchess holding then giving the dumbell...I only had one hand...so I always need to guide it in her mouth and normally i would take it back using both hands...but yeah she treats the dumbell totally different than her toys. I only had so much memory...she could have held it for longer...I actually was having her hold the dumbell...and I got distracted with the camera or something and forgot to release it from her...poor girl was holding it for awhile after and then when I got back to her she dropped it like she knew I forgot about her lol.
http://www.clipshack.com/Clip.aspx?key=218ADD511801E2D3
lexus is lexus's eyes closed from taking the picture? or does she close her eyes after awhile of holding stuff? lol duchess will fall asleep a little with a toy...
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top