GDV (Bloat) and feeding habits

Adara said:

What do you mean unlimited access? I'm not a fan of free feeding especially for bloat prone breeds. You want to control when and how fast they eat (if that part is possible).

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I'm thinking of free-feeding as a way of raising a puppy to be a non-scarfing adult. I want a dog who eats 2 meals a day, chewing thoroughly, enjoying the food slowly and in a completely relaxed manner. I have a personal dog who is exactly like this, yet she loves to work for food. She was already like this when I adopted her, and while I have raised foster pups this way, none have gone into competitive sports, so it's difficult to say whether they still have good food drive for training purposes.

If you feed raw meat and veggies with kibble, I'd make sure it's a balanced appropriate diet.

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Yup, got that covered, thanks!

I feed at meal times and I don't do vigorous exercise 1-2 hours before or after and pray no one bloats I've been through bloat with a Dobe and took all the right "precautions" and t still happened.

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I'm sorry. I really hope your dog recovered. No matter what we do, there's still that risk. I have a therapy dog who is trained to alert when an elderly person falls and cannot get up, and he has the intelligence to understand and generalize to a completely different type of emergency! He saved my other dog's life by bark-alerting when she bloated the second time.

TeXgurl said:

Do you any sort of competitive training? Do you notice any major drawbacks of not having food in your training arsenal? And...well, just wow...that sounds delicious!

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No to your question.
I don't train with treats, I think it is an advantage...for what I have achieved and life lasting.
- to me treat training overdone...is like giving your grade1 child $1 to clean their room and in grade2 their looking for a $5 bribe

I train with games & play first and at 8 weeks old - fun stuff to get the pups eyes constantly focused and use my voice, in a controlled intensity of pitch, calmness and praise or disapproval /correction.
- fetch
- tug of war
- hide & seek
- gonna get you
- name all the dog toys, 2 boxes worth
- muzzle & soft bite control

I tend to train mostly off-leash first, then followup with formal leash training...after the basics and foundation, are established.
My Amy was off-leash trained by 6.5 months old (with no other dogs present) and I tested her on a city main street and healing through traffic light intersections.
Distraction training is done with not running after squirrels, doves, chipmunk, etc....can't run across the road after a stray cat either.
She was titled in OB, on one 2 day weekend with a second & third place finish.
My first dog scored 198.5/200 in the ring, back in the late 1970's...but I spend 10 times more time in very structured training.

My current dog was trained with much mental exercise from tons of play.
She learned much quicker and easier...confidence was built.
She can read me like a text book, knows my every move, can comprehend full sentences (like talking to a child), very language intelligent, always wants to please, etc.
Stimulating play with respect, was her real treat and motivation...in her fun leaning.

She always has her eyes, on me...it became her job...lol

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CH4Sure said:

when you say no vigorous exercize do you mean crate them afterwards? Now I am totally paranoid with my puppy as she is a constant ball of energy before durring and after she eats. What are the signs and or symptoms to look for? Do they suddenly become ill? This is our first dobe and the more I read the more paranoid I become. I'm almost about ready to start spoon feeding her literally with all this scary bloat info.

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Don't freak out, just exercise caution with your dog. It would be wise to make a bloat kit, the link posted earlier may explain that, if not I'll find a link for you. I talked about tacking the stomach in my dog earlier; if you are concerned about it, it would be wise to talk to your vet about possibly having the procedure done as well. The thing to remember about bloat is the larger the dog the more likely its occurrence can be, that's why so many Great Danes bloat.

I don't crate my dog, I give him enough exercise to make him tired. When he was younger that was a little harder, but do able. Right now his routine is a one mile walk, 20-30 minutes of me hitting a tennis ball with a racket, with swimming brakes to cool off in between hitting the ball and afterwards. When its really hot outside I just swim him for 45 minutes or so.

CH4Sure in the link posted by EmilyB there was an explenation on how to make a bloat first aid kit. Here it is pasted:



5. First aid:

A. In bloat Phases 2 and 3, attempt to pass a tube through the dog's mouth into the stomach. Two persons are normally required for this procedure.

NOTE 1: Pre-measure and mark each stomach tube for each Great Dane in the household. To do this, place the dog in a sit position. Measure the stomach tube on the outside of the dog from the front of the mouth to the last rib and mark the tube at the front of the mouth with a piece of tape

Remove an eighteen inch strip of tape from the tape roll. Insert the roll of tape in the dog's mouth behind the front teeth. Ensure the tape roll hole is pointed toward the dog's front and rear. Using the strip of removed tape, tightly bind the dog's muzzle with the roll of tape in position (figure3).
Lubricate the bevelled end of the stomach tube with K. Y. jelly (be careful not to plug up the tube holes with the jelly).
Carefully insert the tube into the dog's mouth through the hole in the tape roll (figure 4). Some resistance will be felt when the tube reaches the dog's throat. However, the dog will start to swallow as you push the tube deeper into the throat and the tube should enter the esophagus with little resistance. It the dog does not swallow the tube or the tube seems stuck, gently move the tube back and forth until it enters the esophagus.
Once the tube is in the esophagus, gently blow through the tube as you advance it toward the stomach. This will expand the esophagus and allow the tube to pass more easily.

FIGURE 3



FIGURE 4

The tube may encounter a resistance when it reaches the stomach because of muscle spasms in the stomach valve or twisting of the stomach (torsion). If this happens, blow more strongly through the tube while turning the tube in a clockwise direction. If the tube does not enter the stomach, continue blowing and carefully turn the tube back and forth.
You will feel a quick, forward movement of the tube when it enters the stomach. Caution! Do not insert the tube too far into the stomach and pierce the stomach wall.
Immediately remove the tube from your mouth. Gas will be expelled through the tube as it enters the stomach (figure 5). Fluids will follow the gas.
After the gas and fluids stop, you should squeeze the dog's abdomen to remove as much of the remaining stomach contents as possible. To do this, stand over the dog facing the same direction as the dog. Grasp the dog with locked wrists around the abdomen and squeeze firmly (figure 6). Continue to remove the stomach contents for five/ten minutes.

FIGURE 5



FIGURE 6

Cover the end of the tube with your thumb and carefully remove the tube from the dog. Then, transport the dog to the veterinarian immediately.

Note 2: If you are unsuccessful in inserting the tube into the stomach after five minutes, it is probably not possible to pass a stomach tube.

B. If you are unable to pass a stomach tube and the dog displays phase 3 bloat symptoms, you have a very short time to act to save the dog's life. By this time, the dog will normally be gasping for air and unable to stand. The abdomen will be very distended and sound like a drum when thumped. The heart rate will be over 100 BPM and the gums will be white, blue or grey.

C. Trocharization must take place immediately. This action can save your dog's life. The veterinarian will appreciate the fact that you took the Trocharization action and brought in a dog that has a chance of recovery.

Locate the last rib on the dog's left side. The stomach is located on the left side of the dog's abdomen under the last few ribs (you will not have any problem finding the stomach because it will be very distended).
Remove the cap from the 14 gauge needle.
Firmly grasp the blunt end of the needle and with a sharp motion, stab the needle into the dog's stomach on the left side behind the last rib (figure 7). Gas will be expelled immediately through the needle. Do not be concerned about hurting the dog because he is already in such intense pain from the bloat and torsion he will not notice the pain from the needle.

FIGURE 7
Squeeze the abdomen (subpara 5.A.(8) above), then remove the needle. Immediately transport to a veterinarian.

TeXgurl said:

I'm thinking of free-feeding as a way of raising a puppy to be a non-scarfing adult. I want a dog who eats 2 meals a day, chewing thoroughly, enjoying the food slowly and in a completely relaxed manner. I have a personal dog who is exactly like this, yet she loves to work for food. She was already like this when I adopted her, and while I have raised foster pups this way, none have gone into competitive sports, so it's difficult to say whether they still have good food drive for training purposes.

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Unfortunately this may backfire on you (and I would say there's actually a good chance of it). Free-feeding very often makes for finicky eaters because the dog doesn't really see food as a resource.. food is just something that's "always around." I "mostly" free fed my doberman as a puppy. What I mean is that I measured out the appropriate amount of food he was supposed to have in a meal and just set it down for him. If he didn't eat it right then, oh well, it was there for him to eat later if he wanted.

Of course what happened is that he became a very finicky eater. I struggled and struggled with his weight and endured a lot of comments like "that's the skinniest doberman I've ever seen." I finally had to toughen up and teach him that food is a resource and that he's going to eat it. I put down his food bowl, gave him 10 seconds, and if he walked away and didn't return to the bowl, I picked it up. Too bad. The next meal, he got half of his previous meal. 10 seconds again - if he walked away, I picked it up. The next meal he got half of the PREVIOUS meal. He went on a nearly 3 day hunger strike, but finally ate. Then I started increasing his food again by halves. Guess what.. I now have a dog that eats everything I give him when I put his food bowl down, hooray! (At least for now) And no, he doesn't scarf. He basically chews one kibble at a time, LOL - but he won't leave a single one in the bowl anymore, not even on the floor.

Controlling their food, I think, is also good for your relationship. Dogs respect those who control the resources. I don't leave food down for the same reason I don't leave toys out... all good things in our house belong to me and are controlled by me.

Free-feeding won't make a difference for a dog that naturally scarfs, either. Some dogs do and some dogs don't, and I have never free-fed my chihuahuas and they scarf their food in seconds, but they are also the types of dogs who will anything and everything in sight. Some are just more food-motivated than others and it's a personality thing. If your dog scarfs, you can get some of the "slow down" food bowls that have obstacles in them.

Concerning bloat - bloat is a tricky thing. I just dogsat two greater swiss mountain dogs (very bloat-prone) and their momma left me Gas-X (the liquid pills) and Maalox. Those at least are two things I think everyone should have on hand.. at minimum. At the first signs of bloat you can shove them down your dog (assuming their stomach hasn't twisted) and you might be able to buy yourself some time. http://www.crittersitextra.com/pettips/NEW_Purdue_Bloat_Study.pdf

This is ONLY ANECDOTAL but I do believe that feeding kibble increases bloat risk. I have talked to some great dane people who feed solely raw and they say they have seen decreased bloat incidents since switching to raw. It makes some sense, since the Purdue study suggests that food with corn, food with citric acid, and restricting water after eating all increase the chances of bloat. Feeding a diet of raw fresh meat (and/or veggies) obviously contains no corn or citric acid, and it is very high in moisture, so that may explain the decreased bloat risk. Feeding canned food also seems to have a similar effect in decreasing the risk of bloat.

Here's a good tidbit of information from the study: "The inclusion of human foods in a primarily dry dog food diet was associated with a 59 percent decreased risk of GDV while inclusion of canned pet foods was associated with a 28 percent decreased risk."

ETA: I know you said you don't want a "food nut," but trust me when I say you do want a dog that will eat a proper amount of food to maintain good weight and condition. My poor boy became SO finicky free-feeding him that you could see every rib and he never put on real muscle. Whenever he decided he wasn't going to eat, his stomach would start hurting (I could literally hear the gas in his stomach from across the room) and he would start vomiting bile. Then he would feel progressively worse for a day or two until he finally ate. You don't want to put your dog through that, trust me! The puking bile is bad enough, not to mention how miserable they feel. A healthy dog won't "starve" themselves but they sure as heck will make themselves miserable.