[MrDesi]

I stumbled on some rabbit at the local Korean Market and picked up two for Pinci. Its basicaly the whole rabbit but "cleaned and frozen", and each weighs about 2lbs. I do feed her peices of boiled meat mixed with her kibble. I want to know if I can boil the whole rabbit and just let her have it as dinner. Will it be too much meat all of a sudden? I want to do this once or twice a month just to switch things around.

Thanks.

 

[Okie-dobie]

Hi there,

I feed my dog a raw frozen diet. I would not feed any bones cooked only raw. I am assuming the rabbit is boned and you are boiling it, I think rabbit is like chicken in that the bones are very brittle and could splinter easily.
This would be my only concern.

 

[MrDesi]

Hello there,

She does get boiled chicken with her kibble but I pull the meat off the bone for the same reason you stated. However, I boil all bones/meat before giving them to her, such as goat, lamb, beef, pork. The only bones she does not get is from chicken. So you think that the rabbit bone is like chicken bone? If so, then I will just pull the meat off.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Although I would like her to be able to work the meat off the bones.....oh well.

 

[doberkim]

your dog should not get ANY cooked bones - not beef, not lamb, not rabbit, no cooked bones.

bones should be fed raw, or not at all.

what is her normal diet?

 

[DobiLove]

If you want to give the dog bones.. make sure they are RAW only.. Never cooked no matter what type of bone it is.

 

[MrDesi]

Thanks a lot everyone. I am still not clear on why dogs should not be fed boiled bones. The only concern I have is some kind of desease from "raw" meat. I know it sounds funny but I am new to this but would love to learn and hopefully feed her raw soon.

 

[TracyJo]

Mr Desi,
Cooking the bones changes their texture and the break and splinter easier than raw bones that are, believe it or not, chewier and easier for the dog to digest and not as likely too cause injury. I shared your concern about the bacteria and such in raw food but from what I've gathered through much discussion and research is that basically a dog's gut is different than ours and they are able to handle those bacteria. But I still follow safety rules, I won't feed old raw meat, only fresh and I keep it in the fridge until they get it. The only problem we've had was with Pork, cooked or not, I think pork bones are too sharp (but others have fed it with great success) and Chi gets really runny poo when she eats it. She's had RAW pretty much her whole life (although on occassion she gets kibble) and Petri (my chihuahua mix) has just made the transition in the past few months with no problem. They love the food, their teeth and coats are awesome and if you really watch sales, raw can be quite a bit cheaper than super premium kibble
On a side note, both of them now remind me of my cat. When Yo hears the can opener he sprints to his feeding table. Of course, 9 times out of 10 I'm opening something for our own dinner I have to be very stealth if I get out a package of ground beef in this house now, both Chi and Petri have this radar. They think every package of meat in this house is theirs

 

[Pippinislove]

Cooking bones causes them to splinter when chewed which can cause a LOT of damage to internal organs when ingested. Raw bones are, like mentioned, "chewy" and digestible.

 

[Okie-dobie]

If you are worried about raw meat then add some apple cider vinegar to it. This will kill any bacteria on beef, chicken and fish. A.C.V. will also preserve the meat when it is stored in the refrigerator.

A.C.V. contains potassium, phosphorus, chlorine, sodium, magnesium, calcium, sulfur, iron, fluorine, silicon, and trace minerals. It is great for dry itchy skin ! I add it right into Bandit's dinner. For a 50-75lb dog add 1 tablespoon

 

[Lexus]

Good advice Okie-dobie, I didn't know that. Mr Desi, I am with everyone else on this, I feed raw to Lexus too, and I don't cook or boil anything. No problems at all with it. Just follow basic health rules as Tracy says, refrigerate the meat etc and your dobe will be fine with it. Honestly they will get more nutrients out of the raw, as the boiling cooks some of the nutrients out of the meat you are feeding now.

 

[Okie-dobie]

If you are thinking of feeding raw, make sure it is balanced. You can't just give them meat. I now feed a frozen food to Bandit. www.homemade4life.com offered in the U.S. and Canada it is a little pricey so I am going to start making her food again. This site has alot of good info about feeding raw. Also each ingredient is explained-benefits. I have a great book called Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog - Wendy Volhard & Kerry Brown D.V.M. There is a really good homemade receipe if you need it let me know. I agree with Lexus, boiling robs the food of nutrients while raw is unaltered.

 

[MrDesi]

Wow!! Great help everyone. Just few more questions.... ;-)

So any meats/bones are ok as long as they are raw?

Princi weighs about 78lbs and the rabbit is about 2lbs, and I feed her twice a day. How much do you guys suggest I feed her?

TracyJo--I will try different meats at a time to see how her stomach reacts to them. And take the necessary precautions.
okie-dobie--I will try the A.C.V

Thank you very much for the help.

okie-dokie--I would love the homemade recipe.

 

[TracyJo]

Here are two links that should help you out... One to BARF world (I love the name LOL) http://www.barfworld.com/html/barf_diet/barfdiet_faq.shtml lots of questions and answers here and a guideline on how much to feed.
The other is a link to the rawfeeding faq here at dobermantalk: http://www.dobermantalk.com/showthread.php?t=235

I don't really plan veggies or fruits into Chi's diet. But, she gets plenty of leafy greens and fruits daily when I share my snacks and such with her She LOVES apples and just the other day Mark gave her a potato just to see what she'd do... She ate it like it was prime rib LOL I give her ACV once a day too. I'm convinced it has had a big role in her skin and coat health. Additionaly, she gets garlic pills (which is why she stinks all the time, I'm sure of it!) but garlic is a natural flea and tick deterrent and since she had an allergic reaction to frontline, I've used nothing but garlic and haven't seen a single flea.
Just remember to introduce new meats slowly. And let me warn you, feeding time will never be the same again. A few of us around here have been known to take pictures of our dogs eating and "killing" their turkey wings just cause it's so neat and somewhat primal

 

[Okie-dobie]

I tend to stick with the large bones - like the leg or knee bones and this is more just for recreation. I'm sure people feed chicken necks, but I personally don't, they seem to small for my liking. I give bones 3-4 times a week.

Here is the receipe for a 75lb dog no need to add anything else this has been tested to be 100% complete :

Breakfast

4 oz Grain mix (dry)
1 tablespoon Safflower oil
300 mg Vitamin C
1.5 Egg small, 4 times a week
1 tablespoon Blackstrap molasses
300 IU Vitamin E
50 mg Vitamin B complex
1/2 cup yogurt or kefir

Grain mix - I use oatmeal, buckwheat, sometimes brown rice all cooked of course.
I also add digestive enzymes because Bandit is older also when you first start feeding raw I would add it also.
It seems like alot of ingredients but once you purchase them all it is pretty easy to make. I make enough up for a couple of days.
The meat is beef muscle meat. This will be labeled rump roast and chuck. Avoid any meat that is to fatty. Deboned chicken can also be used.
You can add vegetables to the cereal meal, steamed or put through the food processor.
On the 7th day feed the breakfast but add 2 Tablespoons of Honey
Honey contains protein, carbohydrates, iron, copper, manganese, silica, chlorine, calcium, potassium, sodium, phosphorus, aluminum and magnesium, plus vitamin B complex, Vitamins C, D and E. It is almost a complet food. Use honey in it's raw form only, heat processing kills the health giving enzymes it contains. Excellent for stressed dogs or when they won't eat.
No meat meal on the seven day (evening fast) again if you don't feel comfortable doing this, feed the meal.
Dinner
15 oz Meat (days 1-5)
18 oz Cottage cheese (day 6)
1.5 teaspoon Cod-liver oil
3/4 teaspoon Kelp
2 Garlic capsule (325 mg)
1.5 Tablespoon Wheat germ
1 Tablespoon dry herbs (optional)
3.4 oz liver (days 1-5)
300 mg Vitamin C
1.5 Tablespoon Apple cider vinegar
1.5 teaspoon Brewer's yeast
3.5 Tablespoon Bone meal
4.5 Tablespoon Wheat bran
Fruit 3 -4 times a week

Sorry this is so long, hope it helps - Good luck !

I forgot to add the Guaranteed Analysis:
Percentage is by dry weight
Protein- 34.7 %
Fat - 17.2 %
Carbohydrate (including fiber) 33.7 %
Ash (mineral content) 8.6 %
Linoleic acid 2.7 %
Calcium 1.8 %
Phosphorus 1.3 %
Calories per pound 2,172 (lot's of exercise is a must)

 

[MrDesi]

Boy!! That does seem like a lot but I am willing to do whatever it takes for a healthy long life for princi.

Let me make sure I have got this correct.

Days 1-5 she gets breakfast and meat dinner
Day 6 she gets breakfast and cottage cheese dinner
Day 7 she gets breakfast only with 2 tablespoons of honey

The engridients you listed, can I find them at pet food stores or local supermarkets?

Also, currently I add Nupro joint support and salmon oil to her food twice daily. Should I continue to do this after I have started the raw diet?''

And this should be my last question: Can I combine the raw food with kibble or even alternate between raw diet and kibble diet?

Thanks once again.

 

[Okie-dobie]

I know it is alot of ingredients but it is 100% complete.
Grocery store:
Oatmeal, Safflower oil, eggs, Yogurt, Blackstrap molasses, meat, cottage cheese, liver, wheat germ, wheat bran, apple cider vinegar
The last 3 depends on the grocery store, in Ontario I buy the last 3 at the health food store. ACV should be in it's raw form and I think the grocery stores don't sell it that way. Kefir in case your wondering is similar to yogurt but far superior. it "contains the richest known source of enzymes which spark the function of digestive enzymes".
All other items I buy at the health food store.
Try to buy in bulk especially the meat, it is cheaper that way. I normally go to my local butcher and try and make a deal with him, plus he gives me the bones I want !
I would continue with Nupro because I think I remember reading in one of your posts that Princi is a bit stiff when rising. You will find that ACV will help with this also.

In regards to feeding both dry & raw my opinion is stick to one. Raw food passes through a dog's stomach and into the intestinal tract in 4.5 hours. Kibble takes up to 16 hours. Some people feed both but once you start feeding raw your dog might not want to eat kibble again. That's why you should think long and hard before switching over. It does take time, and you have to have the ingredients on hand. You have to make up the food every couple of days. Also, if you travel with your dog alot it is not super convienent, although they make the freeze dried stuff now.
It sounds like a few here feed raw and they could also give you some tips or maybe they have their own receipe that may be easier...

 

[MrDesi]

I will print this out and use it as a grocery list.:3dbiggrin

I don't mind preparing the food every couple of days, as I do some of that everyday right now (boil meat, cut it into peices and mix with kibble).

I do have a health store and butcher shop nearby so I will talk with them as well. Hopefully the cost will remain the same give or take a few bucks.

Should I do this gradually? And if so, how would you reccomend I do this?

I will give this a go as soon as I have acquired the "ingredients".

Thank you okie-dobie for the recipe.

All of you have been very informative and helpful.

Oh and TracyJo I am researching the links you provided, a lot good information...

 

[Okie-dobie]

Go very, very, slow. Start by giving 1/2 cup yogurt or kefir and a teaspoon of honey in the morning. No kibble. Feed her normal amount at night. I would do this for a couple of days, then start adding the cooked oatmeal to the morning meal at 1 ounce a day and increase a little at a time. This of course if she is not experiencing and diarrhea. Start adding the morning supplements and you could try an egg maybe by day 3.
On day 4 or 5 add a little raw meat to her kibble at night, reduce the kibble just a bit. Do this for a couple of days slowly adding a little more and reducing the kibble. If everything is going fine start adding the supplements for the evening meal. The whole process should take at least 14 days and of course that will depend on your dog. Some dogs do better with lightly cooking the meat at first. I also make sure the meat and kefir is at room temp. Good luck !

 

[MrDesi]

Just an update

I went to the local health store and was able to get everything that was on the list that may not be at the local supermarket. I have left out items that I will have available at home like (rice, eggs, yogurt, meat). And since I am new at this, the () contain information that I read on the labels and thought I would share with you.

Here's the list:

Breakfast:

dry grain mix (oats, buckwheat)
safflower oil (unrefined)
vitamin C (powder)
blackstrap molasses (unsulphured)
vitamin E (natural liquid)
B complex
acidophilus yogurt

Dinner:

cod liver oil (Norwegian)
kelp
garlic capsules (aged garlic extract)
wheat germ (raw)
apple cider vinegar (raw-unfiltered)
brewer's yeast (unflavored-unsweetened-unfortified)
wheat bran (organic-unprocessed-coarse bran)
I will be picking up the bone meal on Friday....

:cool2:

 

[MrDesi]

Princi just got the "breakfast", and she loved it. We'll see how dinner turns out.

And ofcourse, more questions ;-)

So I can pre-mix everything ahead of time for a few days at a time?

And also, just wondering why is it set up the way it is for "breakfast" and "dinner"?

Thanks