[lupine_tendencies]

We just adopted a 14 month dobie pup from a coworker 3 weeks ago. Although he gets along well with the other dogs and is well mannered he needs some work. My coworker had to give him up do to medical reasons and prior to that he was already in a number of homes. Although she trained and worked with him a lot, she reinforced guarding/ aggressive behavior, :11doh: something unacceptable for me. He's also spent the last 3 months living with a family member who did not provide the structure and training a dobie pup needs. We noted upon arrival that he did not respond to any of his previous commands or even name.

Behaviors noted:
-Barking, growling and hackles raised when someone at door. Backs away staring when strangers entering home.
- Above to people in yard (vastly improving in last 2 weeks)
- Did above when approached on walks, now will only avoid if uncomfortable
- Improving very well on walks, usually waits for shepherd to investigate strangers first (GSD loves everyone). Will approach with body stretched, sniffing, will usually accept petting after sniffing and moving forward. When startled will now back away/avoid (previously would bark/raise hackles). Today even rubbed face on stranger's leg while being petted.
- Wonderful with other dogs male/female/large/small
-Puller, but improving
- Only reacts to people directly approaching on walks (previously would react to people talking to me, approaching other dogs)
- Seems to watch shepherd's actions and mimic when unsure what to do
- Especially afraid of children
- Previously paced and whined once strangers settled in home (aggression stops once strangers in home). Still paces, but much less.
- Very relaxed and quiet almost instantly when in crate.

So here is what we are doing now:
- Nothing in life is free
- Strangers have the best candy (liver treats, the best treats ever, magically appear in strangers hands if puppy greets them politely. They only come from strangers)
- 1 hour walk in am with shepherd and geriatric husky, me (slow pace)
- 1 hour walk after work dobie only, husband (brisk pace)
- 1 hour exercise before bed with shepherd, me (run/bike/rollerblade/brisk walk with backpack)
OR several hours hike on days off, me
- We live in the downtown core of a busy city
- Off leash is only in fenced yard
- Flexi lead being used when appropriate with flat collar or harness (hiking, fields, ect)
- Using choke chain on walks, tried NewTrix head halter, not working as well. I do not like Gentle Leaders, or harnesses (unless you want pulling). Walks are on very short leads when on streets.
- Unacceptable behavior is corrected with NO and correction from collar on walks. Not on walks I will get his attention, if name doesn't work, by blocking the stranger, then I put in a sit-stay. When calm he is released and allowed to approach. If unacceptable behavior resumes, I repeat until acceptable greeting occurs. Strangers ignore him (if acting aggressively) and enter the home anyway. Once strangers are in the home they are the primary source of food/attention/fun
- Not allowing interaction with young children until comfortable with adults. Will put in sit-stay while shepherd receives attention.
- Put in crate if not settling after strangers arrive. Once settled, he will come out and investigate calmly/politely.

We did have a set back with strange dogs after a neighbor's off-leash, aggressive boxer attacked him. This resolved within a couple days of positive new dog experiences.

Are there any other suggestions or comments anyone could add that may help? I should note that he is improving on all sides, however he is my first experience with fear-aggression.

A side note for those who want to train their dogs to be aggressive: my happy, loves everybody German Shepherd did bite someone a couple years ago when I was attacked while with him. I have always maintained a zero tolerance policy on aggression, but he's not stupid. If you're not trying to break in or attack me, you will be licked to death. Also, you have a big dog. Even if s/he is a teddy bear, as a criminal, why risk it?

 

[mmctaq]

I have no suggestions for you at all... it sounds like you are doing a stellar job on all fronts! If you have made as much progress as it sounds like you have made in three weeks, just keep on keepin' on. I suspect that everything is going to be just fine.

Lucky dog that he found you. Lucky you that you have a clue and such a wonderful role model in residence.

 

[MeadowCat]

In my experience corrections make fear aggression worse. Often you will end up with a dog who does not warn (growl) before biting.

I would highly suggest getting in touch with a professional. In particular, if you can find one that uses Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed" methods that would be ideal. In the meantime, I'd pick up a copy of the "Control Unleashed" book and give it a good read through.

 

[Adara]

- Unacceptable behavior is corrected with NO and correction from collar on walks. Not on walks I will get his attention, if name doesn't work, by blocking the stranger, then I put in a sit-stay. When calm he is released and allowed to approach. If unacceptable behavior resumes, I repeat until acceptable greeting occurs. Strangers ignore him (if acting aggressively) and enter the home anyway. Once strangers are in the home they are the primary source of food/attention/fun

Just my two cents but I'd take the opposite approach. Rather than force him to interact, desensitize and work UNDER his threshold. I, too, would sugegst NOT correcting for growling and keeping him UNDER threshold so he doesn't feel the need to growl. The last thing you want is to do away with his warning (which is the growl).

Continually forcing him by repeating behaviors and him continuing to act fearful/growl, etc. isn't necessarily making him more "acceptable" and comfortable with strangers.

I'd suggest finding a good trainer in the area who can walk you through how to desensitize a dog to fearful things working under threshold. I'd also suggest putting him up in a crate or other room for now when strangers come in. He's given enough info that these are stressful situations.

 

[mmctaq]

Just my two cents but I'd take the opposite approach. Rather than force him to interact, desensitize and work UNDER his threshold. I, too, would sugegst NOT correcting for growling and keeping him UNDER threshold so he doesn't feel the need to growl. The last thing you want is to do away with his warning (which is the growl).

Continually forcing him by repeating behaviors and him continuing to act fearful/growl, etc. isn't necessarily making him more "acceptable" and comfortable with strangers.

I'd suggest finding a good trainer in the area who can walk you through how to desensitize a dog to fearful things working under threshold. I'd also suggest putting him up in a crate or other room for now when strangers come in. He's given enough info that these are stressful situations.

Where do you see that anyone is "forcing" this dog to interact???

I am thinking that this is a young dog who hasn't been out enough and just "don't know how to act." He is making good progress, which he would not be if the OP's approach was wrong.

Sometimes, you get a squirrely dog who needs a pat on the head and sometimes you get a squirrely dog who needs a kick in the pants and sometimes you get a squirrely dog who is properly considered a long-term science project. Nowhere am I seeing any indication that this dog would either require or benefit from becoming a science project.

 

[Adara]

Where do you see that anyone is "forcing" this dog to interact???

I am thinking that this is a young dog who hasn't been out enough and just "don't know how to act." He is making good progress, which he would not be if the OP's approach was wrong.

Sometimes, you get a squirrely dog who needs a pat on the head and sometimes you get a squirrely dog who needs a kick in the pants and sometimes you get a squirrely dog who is properly considered a long-term science project. Nowhere am I seeing any indication that this dog would either require or benefit from becoming a science project.

This type of training is called forcing. You are forcing the situation. Making the dog do it NOW, my way or the highway type of thing vs working under the dog's threshold. If the dog is growling (which I think is happening from what I am reading), the dog is being forced to do something over threshold.

Not sure I ever said it would be a long-term science project For me, this is how I train just about everything. I use very little force/flooding (anti Ceasar here!) and more positive reinforcement, counter conditioning, desensitization, building confidence. It's relatively easy to get a dog to STOP growling by making him shut up but it's harder to get a dog to be comfortable with the situation, which is MY personal end goal in this kind of training. I want the dog to learn to be ok and maybe, hopefully be happy about greeting people.

When I create a training plan for anything, I ask myself what is the long-term goal? Is it just not to growl or is it to have a dog comfortable meeting strangers?

 

[lupine_tendencies]

I'm not sure I'm forcing the issue: we live in a busy city, and with my shepherd being a bit of an attention-grabber (he's in a wheelchair), I get approached a lot. I try to tell people that although they are free to say hello to the shepherd, the dobie is to be ignored unless he approaches them. The issues are arising when people approach him without my okay. In a perfect would I would be able to avoid those situations, but when they occur, should the signs of aggression be corrected or ignored? People coming into home: the most aggression occurs when people first knock/arrive and improves as they move/settle into the home. We're not inviting people over more than usual, and we do tell people to ignore him until he shows interest in meeting them in a friendly, curious manner. I will look up that book, and I'm looking for a local trainer I trust. The only one I do currently is about 2 hours away and although I'm hoping to drive to see him for a consult, we won't be able to do regular work with him.

 

[lupine_tendencies]

I should say I'm also going to start sending to crate more when not reacting politely to visitors. He settles very quickly in his crate.

 

[MeadowCat]

I personally would NOT correct, and agree with Adara about working under his threshold.

 

[Adara]

I'm not sure I'm forcing the issue: we live in a busy city, and with my shepherd being a bit of an attention-grabber (he's in a wheelchair), I get approached a lot. I try to tell people that although they are free to say hello to the shepherd, the dobie is to be ignored unless he approaches them. The issues are arising when people approach him without my okay. In a perfect would I would be able to avoid those situations, but when they occur, should the signs of aggression be corrected or ignored? People coming into home: the most aggression occurs when people first knock/arrive and improves as they move/settle into the home. We're not inviting people over more than usual, and we do tell people to ignore him until he shows interest in meeting them in a friendly, curious manner. I will look up that book, and I'm looking for a local trainer I trust. The only one I do currently is about 2 hours away and although I'm hoping to drive to see him for a consult, we won't be able to do regular work with him.

If it were me I'd try to keep him from growling by staying far enough away from strangers. Of course, that means we can control the whole world not easy!! And I woudl not let people approach to see the shephard if you have the Dobe. It's too much for the Dobe (that's forcing him in an uncomfortable situation). He growls, person goes away (even if you correct or ignore - it worked and he gets to practice bad behavior).

First thing is maybe take him by yourself for outings so you guys are less of an attention grabber. And then maybe hollar out, please don't approach we are in training.

For people in the home, for now I would put him in a crate first no matter what. I used to have a very human aggressive Doberman. I used to ask friends to call or text me a few minutes before they arrived and I'd put him up. For the ones that just dropped by I hollared through the door, PUTTING DOG UP This particular dog NEVER came out. In your case, I might work on letting him out about 10-15 minutes after people arrive. Let the stress levels/anxiety/excitement calm down. You could let him out on a long line or leash. Work on it slowly.

If you can find a trainer who does BAT Behavior Adjustment Training, it might work wonders for him. Basically the reward for approaching people/dog/reactive thing is distance. The reward is "getting away' and then a secondary reward is food/toy.

 

[mmctaq]

He growls, person goes away (even if you correct or ignore - it worked and he gets to practice bad behavior).

Where are you reading that this is what's happening?

 

[Adara]

Where are you reading that this is what's happening?

Here - sorry I dont' know how to double quote This is from OP

I get approached a lot. I try to tell people that although they are free to say hello to the shepherd, the dobie is to be ignored unless he approaches them. The issues are arising when people approach him without my okay. In a perfect would I would be able to avoid those situations, but when they occur, should the signs of aggression be corrected or ignored?

I could be wrong but I'm going to assume that when the dog growls people then back off. Maybe not, maybe they continue to pet him. and then again I'm assuming the "signs of aggression" are growling and OP wants to know if they should correct the signs of aggression or ignore it.

 

[mmctaq]

Here - sorry I dont' know how to double quote This is from OP

I get approached a lot. I try to tell people that although they are free to say hello to the shepherd, the dobie is to be ignored unless he approaches them. The issues are arising when people approach him without my okay. In a perfect would I would be able to avoid those situations, but when they occur, should the signs of aggression be corrected or ignored?

I could be wrong but I'm going to assume that when the dog growls people then back off. Maybe not, maybe they continue to pet him. and then again I'm assuming the "signs of aggression" are growling and OP wants to know if they should correct the signs of aggression or ignore it.

Hey, you're doing better than I... I have no clue how to double-quote, and no clue how to change text color, either LOL!

This, also, from the OP (low-tech copy-and-paste... I DO know how to do that!):

"Improving very well on walks, usually waits for shepherd to investigate strangers first (GSD loves everyone). Will approach with body stretched, sniffing, will usually accept petting after sniffing and moving forward. When startled will now back away/avoid (previously would bark/raise hackles). Today even rubbed face on stranger's leg while being petted."

I see this as no forcing. I see this as progress being made... quite a lot, for three weeks. I see the shepherd being present as a role model as a good thing (which, I think you recommended against in another post). I do not think that it is necessary or even beneficial to engineer circumstances so that an animal is kept from experiencing any stress or negative juju. An animal who experiences no negative consequence from stress and recovers and moves on to another mode of being learns to deal with stress and also learns that the stressor is not so very stressful, after all. I really think that the often-suggested plan of "keeping under threshhold" will be very effective at helping an animal deal with the one particular situation being addressed, whatever it is, but will do NOTHING to help the dog learn to deal with stress in a larger context (which is an inevitable factor in life) or to become resiliant... and I think this is very important, too.

I know that there are some dogs who are truly "damaged goods"... either through trauma or bad wiring or whatever... but, I do not think that the majority of dogs with issues fall into this category. Truly damaged dogs do require a plan and great care when attempting to reintegrate them into some degree of normalcy. Most dogs, though, I think are poorly served by approaching them with such delicacy (what I meant earlier by regarding them as a science project, or whatever I said)... "knock it off!" and "suck it up" and "see? that wasn't so bad!" will help a dog grow into a stronger and more capable animal. Obviously, it is most important that the person who is dealing with a dog has half a brain and enough of a clue to tell what approach is more appropriate... the OP sounds qualified in this respect, to me.

I strongly suspect that of the people who crate a puppy and end up with bitter, miserable wailing... those who expect the puppy to adjust get adjusted puppies, and those people who get all concerned with separation anxiety end up with puppies with issues. Expectations play a larger role in outcome than most people realize.

 

[Adara]

I see this as no forcing. I see this as progress being made... quite a lot, for three weeks. I see the shepherd being present as a role model as a good thing (which, I think you recommended against in another post). I do not think that it is necessary or even beneficial to engineer circumstances so that an animal is kept from experiencing any stress or negative juju. An animal who experiences no negative consequence from stress and recovers and moves on to another mode of being learns to deal with stress and also learns that the stressor is not so very stressful, after all. I really think that the often-suggested plan of "keeping under threshhold" will be very effective at helping an animal deal with the one particular situation being addressed, whatever it is, but will do NOTHING to help the dog learn to deal with stress in a larger context (which is an inevitable factor in life) or to become resiliant... and I think this is very important, too.

Ah...this is the problem in communicating or my problem You are thinking that there is no stress at all in desensitizing. There is stress, but you are working under threshold. You are teaching the dog how to handle stress. In desensitizing, the threshold gets smaller and smaller and smaller and the dog learns how to control him/herself. That is how they learn how to handle stress. If a dog is so over the top and reacting, they aren't learning much. I might be able to get them to finally "be quiet" in the presence of a trigger, but I haven't resolved the "issue" with the trigger and why it triggers them.

I do all kinds of sports, etc. with my dogs and dog boarding and really expect and have high expecations that they can tolerate all different kinds of stress. The way I do this is by teaching them how to handle it on their own, build confidence, work under threshold. They learn to bounce back. I don't coddle or hug, etc. I'm very matter of fact. I'm very confident, not wishy washy and there are times even during desensitizing you slightly push on a threshold. That is again how the dog learns.

As far as not being with the GSD that was in response to OP saying they get a lot of people coming up to say hi and how could they better control their environment.

 

[mmctaq]

Ah...this is the problem in communicating or my problem You are thinking that there is no stress at all in desensitizing. There is stress, but you are working under threshold. You are teaching the dog how to handle stress. In desensitizing, the threshold gets smaller and smaller and smaller and the dog learns how to control him/herself. That is how they learn how to handle stress. If a dog is so over the top and reacting, they aren't learning much. I might be able to get them to finally "be quiet" in the presence of a trigger, but I haven't resolved the "issue" with the trigger and why it triggers them.

I do all kinds of sports, etc. with my dogs and dog boarding and really expect and have high expecations that they can tolerate all different kinds of stress. The way I do this is by teaching them how to handle it on their own, build confidence, work under threshold. They learn to bounce back. I don't coddle or hug, etc. I'm very matter of fact. I'm very confident, not wishy washy and there are times even during desensitizing you slightly push on a threshold. That is again how the dog learns.

As far as not being with the GSD that was in response to OP saying they get a lot of people coming up to say hi and how could they better control their environment.

I think that there are two places that we are not on the same page. And, before I forget, I would find the exact definition of "threshold" to be useful...

First, the whole reactivity thing is a continuum. On one end is "La di da di dah..." and on the other is completely out-of-control. I suspect that it is your philosophy to intervene one step away from "La di da di dah..." while I have no issue with intervening a few steps from there, depending. I think your "slightly push" is some slighter than mine. I agree that learning is hampered by being over-the-top, but you say "over-the-top and reacting" and I think you mean reacting AT ALL, which would not be my criterion.

Secondly, I think a few dogs are truly afraid and even fewer are genuinely aggressive. Truly afraid dogs require delicacy and thoughtfulness in handling, and truly aggressive dogs don't belong in this conversation. While dogs that are a bit hesitant and nervous (and I would put the OP's dog in this category) probably do fall under the afraid umbrella, I do not think that they require the same degree of delicacy as a dogs who are very afraid and I think that asking a little of them (a little more than you would, I suspect) is not counterproductive... a little growl and a step back, followed by a voluntary step forward and solicitation of interaction is a GOOD learning experience, I think... I do not think that putting the dog in this position and allowing him to decide what he is or is not comfortable with and decide if he will or will not come forward is forcing him in any way. The vast majority of reactive dogs... even spinning, shrieking, lunging, snarling dogs... are simply misbehaving. They are frustrated and don't know how to act properly and behave like this because they have been allowed to behave like this, and I see no reason to not explain to them that this behavior is unacceptable.

I know what you mean about the GSD, and it's one o' them "six of one thing, half a dozen of another" dealies... yes, it would be better to not be so attractive to the general public... but, considering that the Doberman is looking to the GSD for cues and the GSD reacts so well to attention from strangers, I think the value of having him there as a role model outweighs the detriment.

 

[Audrey1]

First, the whole reactivity thing is a continuum. On one end is "La di da di dah..." and on the other is completely out-of-control. ... The vast majority of reactive dogs... even spinning, shrieking, lunging, snarling dogs... are simply misbehaving. They are frustrated and don't know how to act properly and behave like this because they have been allowed to behave like this, and I see no reason to not explain to them that this behavior is unacceptable.

Yes, you could say la di da is on one end and completely out of control on the other. However, maybe you have not experienced a dog that goes over threshold (meaning it is too much for them to handle and they are essentially out of control and can't hear what you are saying to them etc) before you can say la di da.
Yes, reactivity can be 'misbehaving' but that is simply semantics. It's not that they have been allowed to behave like this but more so that they are so uncomfortable with the situation that they are out of control/over threshold.
That is why the whole idea of counterconditioning is good...but it take a long time and others who will cooperate and help in this counterconditioning.

Definition of threshold would be the point of 'no return' i.e. when they exhibit the action you are trying to avoid. So over threshold is when they exhibit the negative behavior and under threshold is anything before that behavior is exhibited. That's how I would define it, but I am sure others can do better.

 

[brw1982]

Yes, you could say la di da is on one end and completely out of control on the other. However, maybe you have not experienced a dog that goes over threshold (meaning it is too much for them to handle and they are essentially out of control and can't hear what you are saying to them etc) before you can say la di da.
Yes, reactivity can be 'misbehaving' but that is simply semantics. It's not that they have been allowed to behave like this but more so that they are so uncomfortable with the situation that they are out of control/over threshold.
That is why the whole idea of counterconditioning is good...but it take a long time and others who will cooperate and help in this counterconditioning.

Definition of threshold would be the point of 'no return' i.e. when they exhibit the action you are trying to avoid. So over threshold is when they exhibit the negative behavior and under threshold is anything before that behavior is exhibited. That's how I would define it, but I am sure others can do better.

Don't have anything to add really. Just wanted to say...

To the part I bolded: Absolutely.

There's a HUGE difference between a spoiled/bratty/pushy dog acting badly and one that acts badly due to serious confidence and trust issues.

I also agree with Adara. I couldn't give a damn about just stopping a dog from growling. I want to know why they growled and work with that information. A growl is just a sound like any other. What's the motivation for it? That's all I care about when it comes to growling.

 

[mmctaq]

Yes, you could say la di da is on one end and completely out of control on the other. However, maybe you have not experienced a dog that goes over threshold (meaning it is too much for them to handle and they are essentially out of control and can't hear what you are saying to them etc) before you can say la di da.
Yes, reactivity can be 'misbehaving' but that is simply semantics. It's not that they have been allowed to behave like this but more so that they are so uncomfortable with the situation that they are out of control/over threshold.
That is why the whole idea of counterconditioning is good...but it take a long time and others who will cooperate and help in this counterconditioning.

Definition of threshold would be the point of 'no return' i.e. when they exhibit the action you are trying to avoid. So over threshold is when they exhibit the negative behavior and under threshold is anything before that behavior is exhibited. That's how I would define it, but I am sure others can do better.

I have been teaching pet classes at one of the big box stores for a long time. I see all kinds of dogs, and lots of them. I also have what I have, as far as a training room... it is 14' X 24', which does not provide the kind of space that would allow for keeping reactive dogs under threshold (actually, just being in the store often does not allow for this).

We are definitely on two different pages. I wholly disagree that the the differences between different types of reactivity are semantic, and I wholly disagree that a dog whose reactivity I would characterize as misbehavior is uncomfortable.

A lot of idiot behavior is self-perpetuating. Can you reach a dog who is spinning and shrieking and lunging? No. If you prevent the behavior, all at once idiot dogs can think. I have no problem putting a spray bark collar on an hysterical twirp. I would never put a spray bark collar on a truly fearful dog. Not semantics, at all!

I was on a couple of training lists with Arthur Haggerty. I used to get really irritated with him, sometimes. Someone would post this long, gut-wrenching treatise about some aspect of their dog's behavior and go on for days analyzing the factors that they considered relavent ("I think his mother was scared by a man with a hat just before she went into labor"... that kind of crap). His reply was very often, and I quote in entirety: "Don't let him do that." It used to irritate me that he would be so cavalier and unhelpful, and it took me a few years to realize that the Captain's reply was actually the correct response.

I think it is a huge step bacward for dogdom that even the general public is now throwing around terms like "separation anxity" and peppers their conversation with all manner of psychobabble and has lost any idea of how to correct undersirable behavior. I miss the days when a verbal correction was very often a sharp, "You behave yourself!" and it worked because everybody (dogs and people) knew what it meant.

 

[Audrey1]

I have been teaching pet classes at one of the big box stores for a long time... which does not provide the kind of space that would allow for keeping reactive dogs under threshold.
We are definitely on two different pages. I wholly disagree that the the differences between different types of reactivity are semantic,.

Hi mmctaq, only want to address two points here. Sorry about quoting only part of your post.
One is, my own dog Audrey, is extremely reactive to strange dogs but good with less than a handful of dogs she is familiar with. I would probably not even be allowed to bring her to a big box store for pet class. She has to go to a class where the environment is very managed (i.e. other dogs are totally obedient and won't look at her if told not to, she is behind a sheet, etc things like that). So chances are that you would not encounter a truly and highly reactive dog at your classes.

As for semantics - I was referring to your sentence in post #15 where you say the majority of reactive dogs are simply misbehaving. My comment about semantics was that yes, a reactive dog is 'misbehaving' because it is not being polite. But it wouldn't be 'simply misbehaving' unless they are doing it on purpose. I suppose we could get into a long conversation about whether or not a dog is doing it on purpose - lol- but it's not worth getting into a long debate about semantics. No offense.

 

[Audrey1]

I think it is a huge step bacward for dogdom that even the general public is now throwing around terms like "separation anxity" and peppers their conversation with all manner of psychobabble and has lost any idea of how to correct undersirable behavior. I miss the days when a verbal correction was very often a sharp, "You behave yourself!" and it worked because everybody (dogs and people) knew what it meant.

I understand what you are getting at and saying here. While sometimes it certainly is taken too far in terms of psychobabble, the dogs that I am referring to are probably the ones that 'back in the day' used to just be euthanized.
Some of these dogs aren't 'truly' aggressive but since they became aggressive in reaction to their fear or whatever, they would have been deemed a danger to society and put down. So nowadays, this working under threshold is a way in which one can try to manage and countercondition a dog like this.

This is my understanding and it is from personal experience.