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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all

I was reading some critiques from the Dobermann Club of Western Australia's specialty show and I was stunned at how mean the Judge was. I completely understand that you need a stiff backbone and you need to be prepared to loose etc but if Judges shouldn't "fault judge" then what the hell was he doing?

He is a Dobe "specialist" from the UK. Is the harsh way he was about some of the dogs ok? I mean, should he just of not said anything or is the way he explains his judging ok? This question is just out of complete curiosity as I have never read anything like this and I was just wondering if it was common?

Please read the critiques (bitches mostly) they are available online so I am just posting the link (it is public information).

http://www.dobermannwa.com/DOCUMENTS/Critiques_Dobe_Show_2010[1].pdf
 

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I'm not seeing anything overly negative toward the dogs themselves or even offensive in any way. I think the judge was just matter of fact.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Open bitch no. 40

and

Puppy bitch no. 22

stick out a bit to me, its funny because no. 40 won BIS at a dobe specialty the year before? crazy how someone thought she was the best and someone thought she was the worst!
 

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I am sorry AKC does not embrace this critique form- First it helps keep judges more honest and second it helps the hander/or owner to develop and eye if they are new. So a critique is a tool for all to use. If all you can say is positive then you are not being honest. It is about giving a fair evaluation of your dog that means good bad and ugly.

Each dog has faults and sometimes breeders are a little kennel blind - Hopefully the critiques will help them to open their eyes and see things as a judge sees it. Not always just saying.

If you can't take the competition and critiques then showing or breeding is definitely not for you.
 

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The ones you've pointed out are pretty mean, but the rest all looks like good critique to me. Very similar writes ups to what I've had. Don't see what the fact es from the UK has to do wih anything? I'm sure judges in he USA, UK or Australia would tell someone if they didn't think the dog was worth showing! What's the judges name?

It is opinions after all, I've been placed 1st in junior, 1st in puppy and 3rd in group, then unplaced the week after against the same dogs! :):mad:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
He is.. hang on let me look it up.

I understand, but as mentioned above the AKC doesn't use this type of judging so I meant, does the FCI etc? maybe its more common in England? I wasn't having a go at judges from the UK....

I have just never read another critique like it, mostly they are just extremely short if the dog was placed lower etc..

I like to look at detailed critiques and then photos of the dogs themselves so this type of judging helps me a lot as it draws my attention to the not so good parts so I can really study them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I don't think many Judges say to people "you shouldn't show that dog".. I'm certain it is the Breeder/Owners choice.. I mean, I have asked Judges to evaluate my dogs after the show if they are around but I've never heard of one openly saying that to someone in the ring.

The Judge was: Mr Nick Naylor
 

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Yep this kind of judging is common in England, gyre normally publishe on club websites ad in dog magazines :) although normally more...tactful! But if you are at a champ show and for example there is only 1 or 2 dogs in a class, the judge will happily put you 4th so you don't qualify under them. Here's some typical write ups:

Critique 2012 Champ Show | Seedc

Ah, I've heard the name he judges quite a few champ shows here, I don't think I've shown under him.
 

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I am sorry AKC does not embrace this critique form- First it helps keep judges more honest and second it helps the hander/or owner to develop and eye if they are new. So a critique is a tool for all to use. If all you can say is positive then you are not being honest. It is about giving a fair evaluation of your dog that means good bad and ugly.

Each dog has faults and sometimes breeders are a little kennel blind - Hopefully the critiques will help them to open their eyes and see things as a judge sees it. Not always just saying.

If you can't take the competition and critiques then showing or breeding is definitely not for you.
(Not speaking specifically to you, but you made some good points)

I do agree with the bold parts and most of his critiques were nice honest listings of what he like and didnt like of the dog. However I think there were at the same time several others where he was completely lacking in tact or any good pointing out of specific faults like the one quoted below

"Puppy Bitch 2nd #22
-*Bravadobe Red Back (AI) Black and tan bitch,

I just don’t know what to say. I just do not know what to say. Very poor ,very poor from start to finish. Movement absolutely atrocious, there’s obviously something wrong with the rear end of the dog, probably damaged or something like that by the look of it. Definitely not a Dobermann."

Now I am all for critiquing and the detailed list style so that each entry knows why they did or didn't win, but something like the one above is tactless and really very unhelpful. I understand he obviously found this dog horrendous but he should have collected himself and pointed out the faults and good points on the whole dog like all the others versus basically going "Omg it's an ugly trainwreck of a dog!"

Critiquing of that style is only going to upset the owner and be perceived as an attack and fall on deaf ears versus pointing out the faults appropriately and saying something like the other critiques aka, "pore rear movement, over angulated, lack of chest, good tan, poor brisket, etc..."
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for that Amelia, yeah Ive just never seen it before thats why I started the topic and I think he over crossed the line a bit with the two I pointed out.. Ive seen photos of the dogs and no. 40 is a Ch that has won specialties and they arent THAT bad..
 

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If I were showing I would like to have these type of comments because it is so much more helpful than just numbers (except the very few times when he does not give specifics). I admire his honesty as a whole. As far as the dog who was "definitely not a Dobermann" I don't think he was obliged to give a specific critique on a dog that should not have been in the ring.

In dressage you get the judge's comments which were noted by a scribe; those comments can come across as harsh sometimes. I've also had the same thing happen to me with a comment made on a teaching evaluation many years ago. Initially all I had were hurt feelings then, on digging deeper to find the truth in the comment, I saw an area that I definitely needed to improve. I think that is often the result of brief written comments; they can come across as very offensive (happens in email and on forums, Twitter, business memos, etc. all the time). Despite the potential for "hurting an exhibitor's feelings", I still think clear honest communication from a judge is much better than "soft", muddy, or patronizing comments. No judge comments at all is a terrible situation IMO.
 

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If I were showing I would like to have these type of comments because it is so much more helpful than just numbers (except the very few times when he does not give specifics). I admire his honesty as a whole. As far as the dog who was "definitely not a Dobermann" I don't think he was obliged to give a specific critique on a dog that should not have been in the ring.

In dressage you get the judge's comments which were noted by a scribe; those comments can come across as harsh sometimes. I've also had the same thing happen to me with a comment made on a teaching evaluation many years ago. Initially all I had were hurt feelings then, on digging deeper to find the truth in the comment, I saw an area that I definitely needed to improve. I think that is often the result of brief written comments; they can come across as very offensive (happens in email and on forums, Twitter, business memos, etc. all the time). Despite the potential for "hurting an exhibitor's feelings", I still think clear honest communication from a judge is much better than "soft", muddy, or patronizing comments. No judge comments at all is a terrible situation IMO.
True, I agree with you, I guess the biggest thing to me was it didn't seem like clear communication instead it just kind of came off like he couldn't be bothered to give a full explanation like he did with the others and just said your dogs ugly. But like you said it could have been a brief comment and it just reads with a different tone than intended, which like you said happens often when you read something versus are told it.
Regardless I like the comment system and appreciate the judges I see pull aside their 4th place or so dog and explain why they were last, (why I loved the wisc. kc saturday doberman judge a few weeks back)
Good or bad it helps you become a better handler and breeder and etc...but like anything it is bound to have some flaws.
Thanks for explaining it that way :)
 

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I wish we had the written critiques, I know its one persons opinion but atleast then you could understand why they didn't put up your dog and why they chose they way they did. Too many times you wonder what the focus was.
But I agree with Maura, no need to talk about the handling.
 

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I dont see nothing wrong with the judges critiques..Afterall HE is the judge in the ring and its his job to say what he sees..
Some judges prefer not to comment on such bad cases and some judges are straight forward like Mr.Naylor.
If he thought the puppy bitch #22 was so poor in general, and she shouldnt be showed, then its his duty to say so.
Obviously he did not see any room for improvement, so he was very blunt in his critique.
If you cant take negative comments you shouldn't be in the ring!!
 

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Thanks for that Amelia, yeah Ive just never seen it before thats why I started the topic and I think he over crossed the line a bit with the two I pointed out.. Ive seen photos of the dogs and no. 40 is a Ch that has won specialties and they arent THAT bad..
I've seen champions who have won specialities that totally EMBARASSED the judge who put them up-IMO, the dogs didn't even deserve to be champions, let alone a specialty BOB winner.

Can the judge excuse dogs for lack of merit in your country? I think if judges gave a written critique in the USA, a dog as bad as the ones described by the judge in this thread would never be publicly critiqued because they'd leave the ring before the critiques were even done.

I'm NOT convinced written critiques serve any real value. Some people think they might keep a judge honest and make them justify what they've done. I think it's pretty easy for a judge to justify themselves, they can always come up with verbiage to support what they've done.
 

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So dogs cannot be excuses through 'lack of merit' in the USA? That really surprises me. As I said, in the UK they would just not place you, even if you were the only dog in the class.

I like critique; I think it helps new comers like me be able to pick out strong points and weak points that perhaps you didn't see before. As rupert was my first dobe and my dog showing experience, I didn't really know what I should be trying to emphasis and what I should be trying to minimise! A judge told me he had excellent paws, so I started to look at other dogs paws and compare, for example. It's nice for people to be told sometimes, as I personally second guess myself a lot.

I do think some people are just downright rude though, whether they're Judge's or not IMO here is no excuse for being rude to people. I would have written 'Not show quality' and left it at that. I wouldnt be especially offended if someone said that to me, I would just politely disagree :)

I googled Ch Lizmain Southern Belle and I like the dog in the pictures, but then who knows what he saw on the day.
 

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I wish we had written critiques, and I wish we could do it for our specialty. I learned A LOT from the verbal critique we got from the judge at a UDC show in Ontario a few years ago .... it was so interesting to hear after he had placed his class why he had done what he did. And he didnt say anything about the handling either!! LOL
I find the many comments about the handling skill, or lack of, totally inappropirate. I would have but more stock into what he was saying if he had never mentioned the handling skill level. JMO
 

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So dogs cannot be excuses through 'lack of merit' in the USA? That really surprises me. As I said, in the UK they would just not place you, even if you were the only dog in the class.

I like critique; I think it helps new comers like me be able to pick out strong points and weak points that perhaps you didn't see before. As rupert was my first dobe and my dog showing experience, I didn't really know what I should be trying to emphasis and what I should be trying to minimise! A judge told me he had excellent paws, so I started to look at other dogs paws and compare, for example. It's nice for people to be told sometimes, as I personally second guess myself a lot.

I do think some people are just downright rude though, whether they're Jude's or not IMO here is no excuse for being rude to people. I would have written 'Not show quality' and left it at that. I wouldnt be especially offended if someone said that to me, I would just politely disagree :)

I googled Ch Lizmain Southern Belle and I like the dog in the pictures, but then who knows what he saw on the day.
Well, they can withhold the ribbon for Winners or place you 2nd out of a class of one :) but that doesn't happen as often as maybe it should.
 
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