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Discussion Starter #21
So I read a lady's post on a fb page. I decided to share the post because it's something interesting.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/274571209728187?view=permalink&id=1024628018055832
I'm going to make a comment here. And, it should be considered.
Long ago in 1971, I learned to tape Dobermans. I learned from Mary Mulligan who's husband, a vet at the time was doing crops. Later he became a veterinary dentist.
Both of these two are now no longer with us.
But, it was Mary Mulligan who told me there are many ways to tape ears. The key was what works. Maybe what works for that individual's method.
So I see that people come in and correct me on my advice. That's OK. But, it is me that sees the dogs who are messed up. I am the one correcting all the mess up jobs at my home. I wish they'd have come to me in the first place.
So, to go in and say a method I suggest is ridiculous is not fair. It is what works for me. What works for you is another issue or way.
But, after all the experience I have, many refer to me as the ear guru. Because its the mess up jobs that come to me. I'm going to say, its the method that works for me.
I'm about through lending advice here. Many think they are the ones who should know. And, that my method is not correct, or its ridiculous. After all they have taped a few with success.
I have taped maybe thousands. I've been offered jobs at vets doing aftercare. I don't do it as they don't want to pay me enough. I don't work for minimum wage.
But, I want to say, its the angles that you must get correctly. If you screw up the angle then that is what needs to be fixed. If my method to you seems ridiculous, then don't do it.
I happen to be a top breeder of Doberman Pinschers. I've had my dogs in the top 20 number 4, and winning at Westminster. How much more experience can you get? Many of your names, I've never heard of.
The only reason I've come over here is to just lend some help. Because I hate seeing later a dog left wrong and with screwed up ears!
Again, there are many methods. Use what works for you. If it doesn't work try something else.
I do not use backer rod. I do not use zip ties. I do not use tampax. (though at first we all did) I do not use tongue depressors. I use what works for me. Use what works for you. There are just too many methods. Do not mock mine.
I am fed up with this mocking stuff and being told my method is ridiculous.
Many methods, use what works for you. But, don't knock my advice. As really I don't need to even give it. Use it if it makes sense to you. Let it go if it doesn't.




Oh for those wondering I use for my posts pipe insulation. Get the 5/8, 3/4 size. You will need this circumference. Get it at a hardware store. Home Depot etc. I do not use backer rod. I tried it once. I didn't like it. The reason is first backer rod comes in a circle roll. It wants to naturally bend back into that circle. Second it is also called caulk saver. It is meant to keep water out. Thus, you use less caulking. And, since caulking is expensive, thus it was created. What backer rod does is repels moisture. It is made to do that. It is used to stop water, air etc. from getting through a house type crack. Pipe insulation is made to take a bit of pipe sweat moisture. Thus, the dog's ear can get a bit moist without a bunch of gunk growing and a future yeast infection brewing. It has more tolerance to moisture since it is made to be against pipes. Put it all the way down as far as you can get into the ear. The dog's ear is in the shape of an L. Therefore, you will not puncture an ear drum like a human. Push it all the way in. While you pull up on the ear at the same time. Cut a small wedge into the bottom of the post that goes in.to the ear. The wedge faces out. This causes less chaffing. Take your Zona's porous tape and back tape that post so that the sticky side is out. It adheres to the ear better that way. Without back tape, the ear will slide right out. The pipe insulation comes in a round for pipe cylinder. Cut "stick" pieces out of it the length you will need for the length of the ear including the part you push into the ear cannel. I cut "lengths" of the pipe insulation in the sizes I need. Then I cut them out a second time from the entire piece. As the pipe is round. It is made in a round straight piece. You need part of the round piece. I like pipe insulation the best as it is straight. It flexes when the puppy rolls, plays etc. It is comfortable. And it tolerates a bit of moisture as its built for it. I should some day put a video on my website. When people pick up their pups, I usually have them video me doing it. I'm on my own by myself so its hard to video tape myself. Maybe some day I'll get that done.

@dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #23
I don't know how to say this more nicely...

There aren't any "shortcuts" when it comes to a puppy, especially a Doberman.

No shortcuts to get their ears to stand nicely more quickly. No shortcuts to training them more quickly or more effectively. No shortcuts to a better dog.

If you can't be patient enough to post the ears for a few months...can you be patient enough to train your puppy? That's going to take much much longer than a few months. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm really not. But please give this some thought...you wanted a Doberman with nice ears, and that takes patience. The method you are looking at using is much less comfortable for your puppy. In the long run, it is beneficial to your pup to learn handling through ear posting, and to have a better relationship with you through the posting process. This is just the first of many times you will need to make a decision - what's in your puppy's best interest? Will you take the easy way out or will you pup your dog first?
Actually, you are right. I know I can't train. I taught him sit and down commands when he was 70 days old. I don't have the patience and experience. So I have hired a dog trainer who has 20 years of experience and participates in dog show to help me out.

I will have to post him because no is else is going to do it. I have health issues so I definitely need a trainer.
 

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Hi APS89,

Sorry to not have gotten back to this soon but a number of things were going on here that were time sensitive (the puppy I had borrowed went to a four day show circuit on Wednesday and then DT decided to lose me--and for awhile I couldn't do anything except read stuff. But I'll catch up shortly.

Thanks for sending the pictures. I'm interested to see what the next posting brings--and his ears are definitely standing but that curve isn't right even if the ear stands so maybe something about the next post via your vets method will do something I don't think it'll do--straighten the ear out.

I had to laugh about the information you found from the woman who learned to post ears in 1971 from the wife of a vet who cropped. So I learned from a breeder in 1959 and got to practice on my first Doberman.

But the part I thought was really funny was the part you had in bold.

I could have written that--in fact it's so close to things I have written on this forum and on other Dobe lists and is what I demonstrate for people who come wanting to learn to post their own puppies.

I don't actually use backing rod (aka caulking rod) either--the principal is the same no matter what the post material is --but I use pipe insulation because it is stiffer to start with than the backing rod and you can cut it to any sort of width and the outside curve lets it conform nicely to a puppies ear.

Actually backer rod, caulking rod and pipe insulation are all made from closed cell foam and closed cell foam does not absorb moisture so none of the products no matter what they call them absorb water. But you can get moisture from humidity or rain (or falling in swimming pools, lakes and rivers) seeping in through the porous tapes. And you don't, if at any point, want to leave the ears up as long as you've been able to do taped via your vet's method.

I hope you aren't just sending your puppy off to a trainer but are taking him to one and staying with him to watch how the trainer trains--so that you can learn the commands and signals and he will work for you too.

And does he still have scabs on his ear edges where the sutures were? Be careful and try not to dislodge those when you tape his ears via your vets method--they'll fall off as soon as there is healed tissue beneath them.

He's a nice looking puppy--he has a rather pretty face and it looks like he's put on some weight--he's looking more round and filled out--like a puppy should.

Don't let the training be mean to him or jerk him around a lot--some trainers get results but their methods are harsh and Dobes are usually pretty willing workers and don't need that kind of treatment.

I'm still laughing about the that article...

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Hi APS89,

Sorry to not have gotten back to this soon but a number of things were going on here that were time sensitive (the puppy I had borrowed went to a four day show circuit on Wednesday and then DT decided to lose me--and for awhile I couldn't do anything except read stuff. But I'll catch up shortly.

Thanks for sending the pictures. I'm interested to see what the next posting brings--and his ears are definitely standing but that curve isn't right even if the ear stands so maybe something about the next post via your vets method will do something I don't think it'll do--straighten the ear out.

I had to laugh about the information you found from the woman who learned to post ears in 1971 from the wife of a vet who cropped. So I learned from a breeder in 1959 and got to practice on my first Doberman.

But the part I thought was really funny was the part you had in bold.

I could have written that--in fact it's so close to things I have written on this forum and on other Dobe lists and is what I demonstrate for people who come wanting to learn to post their own puppies.

I don't actually use backing rod (aka caulking rod) either--the principal is the same no matter what the post material is --but I use pipe insulation because it is stiffer to start with than the backing rod and you can cut it to any sort of width and the outside curve lets it conform nicely to a puppies ear.

Actually backer rod, caulking rod and pipe insulation are all made from closed cell foam and closed cell foam does not absorb moisture so none of the products no matter what they call them absorb water. But you can get moisture from humidity or rain (or falling in swimming pools, lakes and rivers) seeping in through the porous tapes. And you don't, if at any point, want to leave the ears up as long as you've been able to do taped via your vet's method.

I hope you aren't just sending your puppy off to a trainer but are taking him to one and staying with him to watch how the trainer trains--so that you can learn the commands and signals and he will work for you too.

And does he still have scabs on his ear edges where the sutures were? Be careful and try not to dislodge those when you tape his ears via your vets method--they'll fall off as soon as there is healed tissue beneath them.

He's a nice looking puppy--he has a rather pretty face and it looks like he's put on some weight--he's looking more round and filled out--like a puppy should.

Don't let the training be mean to him or jerk him around a lot--some trainers get results but their methods are harsh and Dobes are usually pretty willing workers and don't need that kind of treatment.

I'm still laughing about the that article...

dobebug
I believed her Facebook because of her credentials. Maybe you can have a chat with her. I have provided the link to her Facebook post.

I will join the trainer when he trains him and he will teach me. Because in India 90 percent of the trainers are fraudsters. They take puppies for a long walk teach them 1 or 2 commands/tricks and tell the ignorant owners that they have trained them.

He weighs 12.5 kgs now. I feed him yogurt, milk, eggs along with dog food. He is not lactose intolerant.

His cute face was the reason I bought him. Here is his pic when he was 4 weeks old.


I did not understand your bit regarding moisture and wetness.

Is it okay if the tape gets wet in little bit of rain?

Because I removed his taping after he got wet in scanty rain. Is good to get the tape moist/wet or not?

Here pics of his ears after 12 hours of removing the tape.

url=https://ibb.co/sPCLryX]
[/url]



 

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If the tape gets wet you should absolutely remove it. Most of us have created "hats" for our puppies out of plastic grocery bags to keep their posts dry in the rain.
 

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I will join the trainer when he trains him and he will teach me. Because in India 90 percent of the trainers are fraudsters. They take puppies for a long walk teach them 1 or 2 commands/tricks and tell the ignorant owners that they have trained them.
Good--too many people just send puppies off with a trainer, often a trainer they know nothing about--and the training does not accomplish what they really want--a dog that will work with and for them. And not all trainers are good with puppies or nice to them. So I'm glad to hear that you will be there with the puppy while he is being trained.

He weighs 12.5 kgs now. I feed him yogurt, milk, eggs along with dog food. He is not lactose intolerant.
His weight is sounding more normal for his age now. Don't be surprised if he does become lactose intolerant--it is a natural process--yogurt, which is a partially processed milk product (like cheese is) is usually tolerated but cows milk is not usually well tolerated--partly because of the lactose but also because it doesn't contain nearly the protein percentage of milk from a lactating bitch. Goat's milk is somewhat better but but the yogurt and eggs are great additives for puppies.

His cute face was the reason I bought him. Here is his pic when he was 4 weeks old.


I did not understand your bit regarding moisture and wetness.

Is it okay if the tape gets wet in little bit of rain?

Because I removed his taping after he got wet in scanty rain. Is good to get the tape moist/wet or not?
You already got the information in Falnfenix's reply. But I'll just answer again. If tape gets wet--whether it's the tape used the way your vet uses it to 'finish' ears or in posting with backer rod, pipe insulation or any other kind of support that is taped in place--if it gets wet (really, even if it only gets damp) the best thing to do is what you did. Take it down, dry the ears inside and out and retape/repost.

Even when the tape only gets a little wet it doesn't dry out until it's removed--so you need new dry tape to replace it.

And I see from the 4 week old picture that he had that very cute face even as a very young puppy.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I believed her Facebook because of her credentials. Maybe you can have a chat with her. I have provided the link to her Facebook post.

I will join the trainer when he trains him and he will teach me. Because in India 90 percent of the trainers are fraudsters. They take puppies for a long walk teach them 1 or 2 commands/tricks and tell the ignorant owners that they have trained them.

He weighs 12.5 kgs now. I feed him yogurt, milk, eggs along with dog food. He is not lactose intolerant.

His cute face was the reason I bought him. Here is his pic when he was 4 weeks old.


I did not understand your bit regarding moisture and wetness.

Is it okay if the tape gets wet in little bit of rain?

Because I removed his taping after he got wet in scanty rain. Is good to get the tape moist/wet or not?

Here pics of his ears after 12 hours of removing the tape.

url=https://ibb.co/sPCLryX]
[/url]



On a late night walk, it rained. His tape got wet again.

I said to myself, " F it. I am going to try backer rod method with a solid bridge from now on."

The process started at 12 am and ended at 1:35 am. My brother and father helped me till the end.




Will upload good quality pics tomorrow. My puppy was sleepy. I was very tired.


I used this lady's method. She uses backer rod for a solid bridge.

https://youtu.be/CPL_KKO0TRU

Wish me luck! If this fails, it's going to half post zip tie method next.
@dobebug
 

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The method you choose to use is a pretty straightforward one and it looks like you and your helpers (and your sleepy puppy got it right,)

See how this backer rod version works for you and if the posting tape gets wet you don't just want to leave it so either figure out how to protect the posting and tape with plastic on walks when it's wet. If it gets wet you need to take it down repost.

I think that a zip tie half post would not be the best thing for the crop your puppy got--you can try it but I think a full post with backer rod at least for a couple of postings will work better for you.

You may be able to switch to half posts after a couple of postings with the first method which you have on now.

Send pictures when you take this posting down please. And of course I wish you luck!

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #30
The method you choose to use is a pretty straightforward one and it looks like you and your helpers (and your sleepy puppy got it right,)

See how this backer rod version works for you and if the posting tape gets wet you don't just want to leave it so either figure out how to protect the posting and tape with plastic on walks when it's wet. If it gets wet you need to take it down repost.

I think that a zip tie half post would not be the best thing for the crop your puppy got--you can try it but I think a full post with backer rod at least for a couple of postings will work better for you.

You may be able to switch to half posts after a couple of postings with the first method which you have on now.

Send pictures when you take this posting down please. And of course I wish you luck!

dobebug
I removed his post after 3 days.

These are his pics:






I feel like these 3 day backer rod posts are going to take me atleast 6 months
 

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Really? I'm surprised you'd think that. The crop is decent and not extremely long and the ears look pretty solid. I'd post them at least three times without leaving them unposted just "to see" how they were doing.

How old is he now? What I do when trying to determine if posting is done (or at least close) is take them down after three days (in your climate) early the morning--keep an eye on them all day and if they are still solidly standing at the end of the day I'd leave them down overnight--if they are still standing in the morning--I pretty much fell that they are done being posted. Sometimes ears will get somewhat floppy several days down the line and I'll put them right back up and keep them posted three days on and test them for sold standing in the morning again.

Just so you know--his ears look like ears that are nearly finished at worst or completely done at best--ears that need to be posted beyond six months (isn't he just slightly older than 4 months now?) don't look that good at this point.

How far has his teething progressed. Baby teeth fall out small incisors top and bottom first, big canine incisors right behind the very front incisors stay until the very end. Second to be shed would be the premolars (right behind the canine incisors) and just before the canines the molars are shed and adult teeth come in. How fast varies but my experience is that once all the adult teeth are in and if the ears have been coming out of posts looking like your puppies look you would be done then if not sooner.

The majority of my puppies (and they all have long show crops) have all their permanent teeth and standing ears when I start showing them--and prior to COVID-19 I started them in 6-9 month puppy classes.

If you have questions--post here and I'll answer--send pictures--we all like to see pictures of puppies growing up.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
Really? I'm surprised you'd think that. The crop is decent and not extremely long and the ears look pretty solid. I'd post them at least three times without leaving them unposted just "to see" how they were doing.

How old is he now? What I do when trying to determine if posting is done (or at least close) is take them down after three days (in your climate) early the morning--keep an eye on them all day and if they are still solidly standing at the end of the day I'd leave them down overnight--if they are still standing in the morning--I pretty much fell that they are done being posted. Sometimes ears will get somewhat floppy several days down the line and I'll put them right back up and keep them posted three days on and test them for sold standing in the morning again.

Just so you know--his ears look like ears that are nearly finished at worst or completely done at best--ears that need to be posted beyond six months (isn't he just slightly older than 4 months now?) don't look that good at this point.

How far has his teething progressed. Baby teeth fall out small incisors top and bottom first, big canine incisors right behind the very front incisors stay until the very end. Second to be shed would be the premolars (right behind the canine incisors) and just before the canines the molars are shed and adult teeth come in. How fast varies but my experience is that once all the adult teeth are in and if the ears have been coming out of posts looking like your puppies look you would be done then if not sooner.

The majority of my puppies (and they all have long show crops) have all their permanent teeth and standing ears when I start showing them--and prior to COVID-19 I started them in 6-9 month puppy classes.

If you have questions--post here and I'll answer--send pictures--we all like to see pictures of puppies growing up.

dobebug
He is 113 days old. I am not sure about his teething stage. I will try to click a picture of his teeth.

Here are his latest pics :





 

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His ears look good. And I'm still pretty amazed that you got them up so quickly using in part your vet's method and in part the common posting method. It looked when this all first started like he had very good cartilage (which is often half of the battle with getting ear up) and I'd say you guys have proven that he did.

That's a very tiny little muzzle he's wearing--what's it for?

113 days? That's very close to 4 months which is about when teething starts. Look at the little incisors (top and bottom) in the very front--he'll start loosing them first.

He's generally looking good--weight seems to be much better and he's probably just full of energy--and looking for trouble. So what do you think of Dobes now that you've had the beginnings of experience with them?

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #34
His ears look good. And I'm still pretty amazed that you got them up so quickly using in part your vet's method and in part the common posting method. It looked when this all first started like he had very good cartilage (which is often half of the battle with getting ear up) and I'd say you guys have proven that he did.

That's a very tiny little muzzle he's wearing--what's it for?

113 days? That's very close to 4 months which is about when teething starts. Look at the little incisors (top and bottom) in the very front--he'll start loosing them first.

He's generally looking good--weight seems to be much better and he's probably just full of energy--and looking for trouble. So what do you think of Dobes now that you've had the beginnings of experience with them?

dobebug
His ears look good. Backer rod with a solid bridge really works well. Plus I am giving him glucosamine chondroitin msm collagen curcumin supplements. Yogurt, Raw eggs and raw chicken have helped him bulk up.

Unfortunately, I did not post my years in vet's style. I will do that twice. But I will modify his method. I will use zip ties stick zip covered with soft material and then tape his ears over his head. I will keep him posted for 5 days not 8 days like I said. Then after 2 posting. I will only use backer rod with a solid bridge.

Combining these two methods will give me quicker results imo. My vet's method will bend his cartilage more quicker. Backer rod method will make them look more parallel.

My experience has been good. Although he is more stubborn than an average doberman. And super hyper active. An hour long walk does not tire him. I feel connected to him. His personality is as same as mine.
 

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Cute PICS!
To tire out that little dober work his brain.
After brain games will sleep for hours.
We hide treats and let the pup search for them .
Make your hides easy at first so pup wins....
Then at time goes by you can make the game more challenging.
No training involved they already know how to work their noses!!! LOL
Keep up the good work with those ears.
 

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My experience has been good. Although he is more stubborn than an average doberman. And super hyper active. An hour long walk does not tire him. I feel connected to him. His personality is as same as mine.
LOL! Walking a Doberman to try to tire them out is a pretty lost cause. Even for puppies--nice long walks may tire you out but your puppy would still be willing to run circles around you.

And some of my Dobe's were as stubborn as goats. And some weren't. But even the stubborn ones got less stubborn the older they got and the more training they went through. I've always thought that a lot of what looks like stubborness turns out to be a reluctance to be wrong or not do what your asking them because they didn't understand what you wanted.

I like the pictures of him--he always looks so sincere...and Lady Di is right--making them use their brain will tire them out faster than any amount of exercise. Her description of teaching them to use their nose to find things is one of the things I use too.

dobebug
 

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Ha Ha Ha, back in the day when I posted we all used tampons.
Back in the day dogs with short crops used tampons. Now when they talk about using tampons they are using the cardboard tubes--extended and taped so they don't slide together.

<VBG>--I use to use the cotton tubing that dentists used (dental dams). It came in foot long pieces and was a great posting material for long crops.

dobebug
 

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Looks good. The method you used (your vet who cropped him method, plus a finish up with backer rod) worked. And I'm actually amazed. But the bottom line remains is that what you hoped would work did. Congratulations.

And I'm presently posting ears on a year old puppy who went through several home changes (not that there was anything wrong with the puppy but people decided that Dobes were not quite what they expected) and his ears were not posted on a regular basis--not a good way to try to get standing ears.

In the course of checking out some of the posting styles for non North American puppies I found that because of how the base of his ears were cropped more like the style used for your puppy and some German puppies I started posting him via those methods. It has worked better than the way I would normally post puppies--even 60 years down the line I still learn stuff practically daily.

Wasn't your vet's method either--just something that worked better for the way his bases were cropped. Almost like a modified half post--but who cares--it works. Or is working--he's still got a way to go.

Muste why I keep helping people with ears and continue to do so...

dobebug





dobebug
 
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