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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Link to my OP :https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-cropping-posting/309375-post-ear-cropping-other-help.html

It will be a long post. So please bear with me.

I almost messed up my pup's cropping. I was planning to take off his stitches on the 10th day. My resilient puppy took out of his bandages on 10th day. An e collar did not stop him. He was continuously hitting his left ear through the e collar. I took him to my my regular vet. But he said that his wounds hadn't healed and he will not remove his stitches till 15th day. He just took off the bandages and did not re tape them. His right ear which did not bear the brunt of his kicking was erect for days till 13th day. And the left ear which he kicked was was semi-erect. My puppy woke up even after the doctor sedated him. During his cropping surgery, he took 25 minutes to go to sleep after been given anesthesia. Both doctors said they hadn't seen such a puppy who fought off sedatives and anesthesia. He wanted his stitched ears to be exposed to air,He prescribed many antibiotics, anti itching pills with sedative effects. But that did not stop my dog doing his usual kicking. My regular vet asked me to increase his dose. But it felt like it had no effect on him. I couldn't sleep for 2 days due to his sounds of crying and kicking.

On the 13th day, I had enough. I took him who the surgeon who did his cropping and lives in another city to remove his stitches. Two minutes after he was administered anesthesia, he took a massive ****. Then he fought off the anesthesia for 30 minutes. After he went to sleep, the surgeon put him on surgery and tried to clean his ears by rubbing alcohol, he woke up. The surgeon was stunned and complimented me for having such a headstrong puppy. And he had to to give him mild sedative to put him to sleep again. Then finally he removed his stitches and taped his ears above his head. And told me to take off his bandages after 8 days and let his ears rest for a day. And then re tape his ears in the same manner. I did not understand and asked him why did I have to re tape if wounds healed after 8 days. He told me the taping he did was his posting method. I asked him about the backer rod method and clamp method ( suggested by my regular vet). He said he had experienced with lot of posting methods in his 20 years experience of cropping ears. This was the easiest and gave quick results. This was the reason why people from far off cities came to him for cropping. After I exited his clinic. I met a son and his father taking out their two dobermans for a walk. I asked them did they do their cropping and posting from the same vet. They said yes and told me they lived in the same area. The black doberman was about a year old and the younger brown one was 4.5 months old. He told me he cropped ears of his younger one when he was 3 months old. He used the same taping/posting method described by the doctor. He got his ears permanently erect in 7 weeks. I was shocked. The older one's ears took two months. The son advised me to use paper tape instead of surgical tape to cause less pain to the puppy. Researching online, I never come through such an easy method which gave quick results that with a long crop.

I will post video link of the procedure but bear in mind that I could record only when he taping posting his second ear and the language isn't English. But anyone can pretty much understand what he did. Here is the video link:

https://youtu.be/qh7EZu3n1a8






While researching more I came through videos of an Eastern European doberman breeder, he had some modified tool with wires to post ears. The posting looked very with that tool.

Here is that video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCRMnXSPNU

Then after a bit of googling, I came to know that tool is known as 'JR ear crop harness tool'. I searched online but couldn't find a seller who shipped this tool.

If anyone knows how to make this tool by yourself, please let me know.


I am totally confused. And one thing I know that backer rod method would be very hard for me. My puppy is mad at me because I had to apply force to apply anti infection cream on his ears. He does not even let me touch his ears and even runs away when I look at his ears. He has become very aggressive. Has already tested my blood more than 5 times. So I don't if I would be able to apply the backer rod method to post his ears.

Please post your views.

Thanks.

dobebug, Melbrod and other experienced guys whom I don't know:2smile:
 

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That tool will not post the ears correctly, and is not something we encourage.

(Your puppy's behavior issues are typical of a dog sold entirely too early, unfortunately. You have a long road ahead of you with training a dog removed from dam and littermates so early.)

Your puppy's ears need to be COMPLETELY healed before posting. That means no scabs, no stitches - nothing.

I can't watch the video here - hopefully someone else can explain what's going on there.
 

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I would not choose that posting method when there are easier methods that are more comfortable for your pup.

I think methods that promise "quick" results are generally not worth it - some dogs simply have ear cartilage that harden quickly regardless of the method.

You and your puppy are going to have a far better experience if you are gentle with his ears. Posting time should be a time to bond with your puppy and teach him how to learn to tolerate handling. The sticky on this forum for how to post ears is a great tutorial.

The "zip tie" method also works great. I have used both the method in our tutorial (foam backer rods), and zip ties. Both are comfortable for the puppy and easy to use. Both of my dogs have had no issues tolerating their ears being posted. Each dog took a different amount of time for their ears to be "finished." You just have to learn to be patient. And quite simply, that's a "thing" with this breed - patience. Patience in training. Patience in posting ears. If you don't have patience, you won't get very far. They are a unique breed and they take a certain kind of finesse in working with them. You will have a delightful companion if you don't push too hard, don't take too firm a hand, and learn to work as a team. They are so in tune with you, so eager to learn what you want...you just have to teach them what it is you want them to do, reward the behaviors you want, and you'll have a great dog.
 

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Link to my OP :https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-cropping-posting/309375-post-ear-cropping-other-help.html

It will be a long post. So please bear with me.

I almost messed up my pup's cropping. I was planning to take off his stitches on the 10th day. My resilient puppy took out of his bandages on 10th day. An e collar did not stop him. He was continuously hitting his left ear through the e collar. I took him to my my regular vet. But he said that his wounds hadn't healed and he will not remove his stitches till 15th day. He just took off the bandages and did not re tape them. His right ear which did not bear the brunt of his kicking was erect for days till 13th day. And the left ear which he kicked was was semi-erect. My puppy woke up even after the doctor sedated him. During his cropping surgery, he took 25 minutes to go to sleep after been given anesthesia. Both doctors said they hadn't seen such a puppy who fought off sedatives and anesthesia. He wanted his stitched ears to be exposed to air,He prescribed many antibiotics, anti itching pills with sedative effects. But that did not stop my dog doing his usual kicking. My regular vet asked me to increase his dose. But it felt like it had no effect on him. I couldn't sleep for 2 days due to his sounds of crying and kicking.
OK, I'm willing for you to make long posts and you'll have to put up with mine and you'll have to live with me repeating the things that I would in some cases done as opposed to the things you didn't do.

I was one of the people who suggested that you take the e-collar off the puppy as it usually provided more irritation than protection. I also told you that over many years and many puppies I found the if a puppy scratched at his ear and connected--it was quick punishment that generally stopped them from scratching after one or two such incidents.

At this point I suggest that I'd have removed the e-collar and that would allow the ears to be exposed to the air. I can only suggest that from years of experience, Dobe puppies are smart and if they kick an exposed ear and it hurts they are inclined to stop doing that. But the e-collar was providing enough protection that they weren't getting the object lesson of I kick, I connect, it hurts and I stop.

So that first. So next--what kind of sedation did he give the puppy or what kind of anesthesia? Was the anesthesia inhalent or an injectable?. In some respect it makes no difference, most Dobes are light weights when it comes to both sedation and anesthesia of any kind. So that surprises me and it obviously surprised your vets.

And by the way--I've never had a puppy who had to be sedated, much less anesthtised to remove stitches. And even though I have worked for a vet clinic for years now if I have a puppy from a breeder and puppy was cropped far, far away--I remove them myself--I have all of the appropriate scissors with which to do this and I certainly know when sutures are ready to come out. No sedation, no anesthesia.

On the 13th day, I had enough. I took him who the surgeon who did his cropping and lives in another city to remove his stitches. Two minutes after he was administered anesthesia, he took a massive ****. Then he fought off the anesthesia for 30 minutes. After he went to sleep, the surgeon put him on surgery and tried to clean his ears by rubbing alcohol, he woke up. The surgeon was stunned and complimented me for having such a headstrong puppy. And he had to to give him mild sedative to put him to sleep again. Then finally he removed his stitches and taped his ears above his head. And told me to take off his bandages after 8 days and let his ears rest for a day. And then re tape his ears in the same manner. I did not understand and asked him why did I have to re tape if wounds healed after 8 days. He told me the taping he did was his posting method. I asked him about the backer rod method and clamp method ( suggested by my regular vet). He said he had experienced with lot of posting methods in his 20 years experience of cropping ears. This was the easiest and gave quick results. This was the reason why people from far off cities came to him for cropping. After I exited his clinic. I met a son and his father taking out their two dobermans for a walk. I asked them did they do their cropping and posting from the same vet. They said yes and told me they lived in the same area. The black doberman was about a year old and the younger brown one was 4.5 months old. He told me he cropped ears of his younger one when he was 3 months old. He used the same taping/posting method described by the doctor. He got his ears permanently erect in 7 weeks. I was shocked. The older one's ears took two months. The son advised me to use paper tape instead of surgical tape to cause less pain to the puppy. Researching online, I never come through such an easy method which gave quick results that with a long crop.
Here I will say again that I am thoroughly amazed that they were using anesthesia to remove sutures and clean up ears and had to add sedation after they woke your puppy up by cleaning his ears with alcohol.

It's been years and years since I've seen any vet or tech try to clean anything that had been sutured up with alcohol or hydrogen peroxide. For one thing alcohol stings on raw tissue like the very devil--no wonder the puppy woke up. And hydrogen peroxide can actually delay healing of raw tissue. And what kind of anesthesia where they using? inhalent or injectable?

So I looked at the video--1) I would not tape an ear over the head that way because you are effectively likely to put a bend in the tissue which makes what is called a pocket. Pockets cause ears to tip in and sometimes fold across the top of the head instead of standing up straight. 2) It looks to me like the vet is still taping across not entirely unhealed ears--I can see blood on part of the tape. 3) So did you by any chance take pictures of the two dogs you saw with that vets method of posting? I'd want to see that AND I still want to see what the puppy looks like now that he's out of an e-collar (or I hope he is) and you can see the shape of the crop.

7 weeks post crop or 2 month post crop for standing ears isn't all that unusual (I've forgotten how old he was when they cropped him--could you remind me?) And exactly how long depends on both the quality of the cartilage, the type of crop and skill of the poster (no matter how they are being posted.)

It would not be my choice of posting methods. And while I've pretty much always had long show crops on my dogs (and I expect to need to post longer than if they had a short pet crop I've had dogs with long show crops who's ears stood in less that 7 weeks of posting after the sutures were out as well and dogs who took months of posting.


I will post video link of the procedure but bear in mind that I could record only when he taping posting his second ear and the language isn't English. But anyone can pretty much understand what he did. Here is the video link:

https://youtu.be/qh7EZu3n1a8
Yes, I understood what he did and what he told you but I still have no idea what the end result of trying to make an ear stand like that would be--I'd really like to see what a finished ear looked like. And thanks for the link,

While researching more I came through videos of an Eastern European doberman breeder, he had some modified tool with wires to post ears. The posting looked very with that tool.

Here is that video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCRMnXSPNU

Then after a bit of googling, I came to know that tool is known as 'JR ear crop harness tool'. I searched online but couldn't find a seller who shipped this tool.

If anyone knows how to make this tool by yourself, please let me know.
In the US it was known as a rack. And it was used extensively in the 50's and was going out of favor by the mid 60's. The version that you found the video of is a good bit fancier and probably works somewhat better than the version you mostly saw here.

I know of no one who makes (commercially) a rack. They were still very popular in California when I moved there in 1963. I posted puppies for breeders who had never used anything but a rack and I can tell you they are a real pain in the neck. The people I posted for in the general style of the backer rod method quickly changed to that.

Usually you need to have sizes for small, medium sized and big puppies. The tape that is used to attach the ears to what were called various things (sometimes wings so that's what I'll refer to them as) is probably Elasticon by Johnson and Johnson a very sticky tape which is often used on things like splints and foot bandages as the outer layer of tape to hold things in place.

The original racks were did not have the extension pieces that run down the side of their head on either side and are heavily padded at the bottom and up the side, roughly to the base of the ears.

Here's the biggest problem with them--they are much harder to put on and tape in place AND that tape has to be changed frequently. As puppies grow their ears grow too. And as the ears grow, even a little the ear droops from the top of the wing. If you don't change the tape and redo it as soon as that happens and you don't keep tension on the ear you end up with pockets and often puppies got very clever about removing even the good racks and the ears weren't up as long as they needed to be and people gave up posting and the ears never stood properly.

I've never known of a commercial manufacturer of racks--all of them that I ever saw were made out of a fairly heavy wire (the wire often used was that which wire coat hangers were made from--it worked pretty well but the video looks like that it a heavier gauge wire than the coat hanger wire.

I am totally confused. And one thing I know that backer rod method would be very hard for me. My puppy is mad at me because I had to apply force to apply anti infection cream on his ears. He does not even let me touch his ears and even runs away when I look at his ears. He has become very aggressive. Has already tested my blood more than 5 times. So I don't if I would be able to apply the backer rod method to post his ears.

Please post your views.

Thanks.

dobebug, Melbrod and other experienced guys whom I don't know:2smile:
OK--Stop putting the anti infection cream on his ears. Leave his ears alone--if he's on antibiotics he doesn't need to have the cream--they will prevent an infection. Of course he doesn't want you to touch his ears--every time you do you hurt him. I'd run away too.

He's not mad at you he's afraid of you and he is trying to protect himself they only way he can--he has teeth and he's using them.

Other people have told you that the quick ways of posting aren't necessarily the best way. They're right.

Even your cropping vet's method involves you holding the puppy and dealing with his ears.

While his ears finish healing you should be treating him with kid gloves and not messing with his ears. Once they are completely healed the backer rod process is probably the easiest on the puppy and the owner.

I hope you've actually gone through greenkouki's video on posting with backer rod. It is detailed and excellent. And I know more than one owner who has learned to post Doberman ears with that video and have learned that if you hurt a puppy while you are posting you'll make your job much harder. Be gentle and take it easy and you and your puppy will bond with each other. Do not be rough with Doberman puppies--you do them and yourself a big disservice when you are.

Now that I've made your post longer I'm going to go and see if I can actually find a place that makes 'racks'. But I assure you that neither your vet's method nor the rack really make posting easy. And the backer rod method is probably the least painful and least invasive.

If I can find anything I'll try to send a link but I don't have much hope so if you don't hear from me it's because I found nothing.

And by the way, one of the puppy mills in the US sells a plastic device called a 'crown'--which is a even poorer version of the 'rack' and also doesn't work as well as the rack. (tape doesn't really hold well to plastic.)

dobebug
 

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Can you use Google to search? I typed in "a rack, a method of posting cropped ears"

That gave me a site and the first thing up was a post from me on Doberman talk from 2018. A discussion of posting methods.

Scrolling down you came to a bunch of u-tube sites several of the with videos of posting with racks. Including the one you posted here. I didn't go through them in detail--figured you could do that but a cursory look didn't give me much hope for finding a premade rack. But there are a number of sites and maybe one of them can provide you with a premade model.

House of Hoytt is the one who sells the plastic version, known as a "crown' or 'halo'. And I notice that at least one of the posters said that it's OK for begining posting but you need to switch to posts to get the final best result.

So good luck to you.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I took off his e collar after I posted this thread. I was sleep deprived so my mind was not 100%. It did not strike me to click the pics of those two dobermans. I did not even record the taping process from the beginning.

I have stopped applying the cream after reading your post.

The cultural norms in here are different. You cannot question the doctor's method. They get offended. Both of them injected. Only thing I know is one used sedative and the other anesthesia

I am not a critic of Greenkouki’s method. It’s stupid to criticize something you haven’t tried. It’s just that I don’t know whether I am capable of doing it for months.


I tried to make a cheap quality rack. But I got the size wrong. It was small. Hopefully I can make one within one week. I don't know whether I am going to use it though.



The european person in the video owns a reputed kennel in Serbia. He participates in dog shows. His name is Slobodan Maksimovic. He sells two racks for 54 euros including shipping. My facebook friends have bought the rack from him online. He is legit. I messaged him but he cannot guarantee to ship to India in a month. So I did not order. He told me shipping to europe takes a week and to USA like two weeks. Here is facebook link. You can message him if you want.
https://www.facebook.com/slobodan.maksimovic.79


His kennel’s link:

http://www.betelges.net/


I will post pics of my puppy. But bear in mind that ears might look dirty because of anti bacterial cream and powder I applied earlier. And I applied parasite repellent cream on his bandages. It's hot and humid in here. Chances of infection are high.






Please provide me links to American racks for sale on ecommerce websites. I want to buy one if the price including shipping is not high.

If that’s not possible provide me link to the racks you mentioned earlier. I want to see how they look. And tell me name of those products.

Waiting for your reply.

Thanks
 

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I don't know how to say this more nicely...

There aren't any "shortcuts" when it comes to a puppy, especially a Doberman.

No shortcuts to get their ears to stand nicely more quickly. No shortcuts to training them more quickly or more effectively. No shortcuts to a better dog.

If you can't be patient enough to post the ears for a few months...can you be patient enough to train your puppy? That's going to take much much longer than a few months. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm really not. But please give this some thought...you wanted a Doberman with nice ears, and that takes patience. The method you are looking at using is much less comfortable for your puppy. In the long run, it is beneficial to your pup to learn handling through ear posting, and to have a better relationship with you through the posting process. This is just the first of many times you will need to make a decision - what's in your puppy's best interest? Will you take the easy way out or will you pup your dog first?
 

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I don't know man, I didn't want to write anything, because I haven't post ears ages ago and did it with only a couple of dogs, but when I did I used a method very similar to the backer rod one, but I was teached to use -listen to this- tampons instead and put an extra piece of tape from ear to ear. I got very good results for example with the bitch in my profile picture.

So if I were in your position I would stick to one of two options: 1) stick to what my Vet says, more so if I've seen good results with other person dogs; or 2) try the method experienced people of this forum tell me. And of these two I'd choose the second option, because people have had, breed, showed and post dobermans for decades. Also people who shows those devices want to sell, so they're going to say their stuff is the best thing ever.

Now, for what I've seen your when your puppy gets uncomfortable he fights a little (or more than a little), so I think wearing those massive things over his head is going to make him take it off every time, and it's going to be more difficult to put it again every time. Plus it is pretty expensive compared to the methods of this forum.

Hope everything goes well
 

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I took off his e collar after I posted this thread. I was sleep deprived so my mind was not 100%. It did not strike me to click the pics of those two dobermans. I did not even record the taping process from the beginning.

I have stopped applying the cream after reading your post.
Good.

The cultural norms in here are different. You cannot question the doctor's method. They get offended. Both of them injected. Only thing I know is one used sedative and the other anesthesia
The cultural norms are not as different as you might think. Many doctors, whether they are vets or human doctors get offended and grumpy if you question anything. Sometimes you just have to ask questions anyway.

The reason I was asking about whether the sedation/anesthesia was injected or (in the case of anesthesia--inhalant) is because injectables are often not as effective as gas inhalation if you are operating or doing something very painful to a puppy.l Way back when I first had Dobes they were put under with an injectable--much more touchy than the modern inhalant anesthesia--which very monitored and much safer.

But I still am amazed that they could not remove sutures without drugging the dog.

I am not a critic of Greenkouki’s method. It’s stupid to criticize something you haven’t tried. It’s just that I don’t know whether I am capable of doing it for months.
I didn't think you were criticising greenkouki's video--and it isn't really "his" method--it's just that it's maybe the best video of how to post ears using the backing rod method. On the internet there are endless video's of the method--some better than others--I've looked at most of them over time and I just think that greenkouki has the best, most complete and understandable video.

We keep trying to tell you that not all dogs need to be posted for months. That's one of the reasons I want to see the ears out of bandages. I expect (because I've looked at a lot of pictures (and a lot of puppies) with cropped ears and true show crops which are usually VERY long are not common and the kind of crop that most of vets do is not a show crop (at least not a show crop of the kind that we (in the US and Canada, and South America) expect.

Without actually seeing the ears, unwrapped--I have to way to give you any sort of realistic estimate of how long you might actually be posting.

I tried to make a cheap quality rack. But I got the size wrong. It was small. Hopefully I can make one within one week. I don't know whether I am going to use it though.
[/QUOTE]

It's also probably not sturdy enough. I think you need a heavier wire and if you look again at the rack that is made by Slobodan Maksimovic--the extended side pieces are what makes that version the best I've ever seen.

What you made is pretty much like the relatively ineffective ones that were very common in California in the 1960's.

The european person in the video owns a reputed kennel in Serbia. He participates in dog shows. His name is Slobodan Maksimovic. He sells two racks for 54 euros including shipping. My facebook friends have bought the rack from him online. He is legit. I messaged him but he cannot guarantee to ship to India in a month. So I did not order. He told me shipping to europe takes a week and to USA like two weeks. Here is facebook link. You can message him if you want.
https://www.facebook.com/slobodan.maksimovic.79
Well, that's rather too bad because if you were absolutely determined to try posting with a rack (and I still tell you that I think it is harder to use, to put on a puppy and it really doesn't shorten the length of time the ears must be posted than if you use the backer rod method) I do think that Slobodan's rack is the best of the lot.


His kennel’s link:

BETELGES DOBERMANS


I will post pics of my puppy. But bear in mind that ears might look dirty because of anti bacterial cream and powder I applied earlier. And I applied parasite repellent cream on his bandages. It's hot and humid in here. Chances of infection are high.
OK--I don't have a problem with dirty tape--it happens with every method. And I understand the problems of posting (any method really) in a hot humid climate--our Southwest has some pretty hot and humid areas.

Please provide me links to American racks for sale on ecommerce websites. I want to buy one if the price including shipping is not high.

If that’s not possible provide me link to the racks you mentioned earlier. I want to see how they look. And tell me name of those products.

Waiting for your reply.

Thanks
I may have better than average knowledge when it comes to posting ears on Dobermans but I'm a perfect idiot when it comes to computer programs. I don't have a clue about how to provide you with a link to American racks for sale on ecommerce

And I can't even give you a link to the "crowns, halos" but they come from House of Hoytt. "House of Hoytt quick brace system" and if you plug that into a search it will give you the kind of information you are looking for. There is a whole bunch of information. Lots of pictures and almost every version of their rack (which is the only common one I know of or could find) is priced and they seem to sell it as a complete kit or various parts and some slightly different versions and prices vary but some are marked as shipping included but I'd bet that is only for shipping inside the US.

So good luck--I'd be interested to know what method you finally decide on. Virtually any of them will work--some are easier on the dog and some are easier to learn to use. But rarely are they quick. That depends on the quality of the ear cartilage--and the persistence of posting (whatever method you are using). And I'd really like to see the ears as you change posts--so see their shape and the actual length.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Good.



The cultural norms are not as different as you might think. Many doctors, whether they are vets or human doctors get offended and grumpy if you question anything. Sometimes you just have to ask questions anyway.

The reason I was asking about whether the sedation/anesthesia was injected or (in the case of anesthesia--inhalant) is because injectables are often not as effective as gas inhalation if you are operating or doing something very painful to a puppy.l Way back when I first had Dobes they were put under with an injectable--much more touchy than the modern inhalant anesthesia--which very monitored and much safer.

But I still am amazed that they could not remove sutures without drugging the dog.



I didn't think you were criticising greenkouki's video--and it isn't really "his" method--it's just that it's maybe the best video of how to post ears using the backing rod method. On the internet there are endless video's of the method--some better than others--I've looked at most of them over time and I just think that greenkouki has the best, most complete and understandable video.

We keep trying to tell you that not all dogs need to be posted for months. That's one of the reasons I want to see the ears out of bandages. I expect (because I've looked at a lot of pictures (and a lot of puppies) with cropped ears and true show crops which are usually VERY long are not common and the kind of crop that most of vets do is not a show crop (at least not a show crop of the kind that we (in the US and Canada, and South America) expect.

Without actually seeing the ears, unwrapped--I have to way to give you any sort of realistic estimate of how long you might actually be posting.



It's also probably not sturdy enough. I think you need a heavier wire and if you look again at the rack that is made by Slobodan Maksimovic--the extended side pieces are what makes that version the best I've ever seen.

What you made is pretty much like the relatively ineffective ones that were very common in California in the 1960's.



Well, that's rather too bad because if you were absolutely determined to try posting with a rack (and I still tell you that I think it is harder to use, to put on a puppy and it really doesn't shorten the length of time the ears must be posted than if you use the backer rod method) I do think that Slobodan's rack is the best of the lot.




OK--I don't have a problem with dirty tape--it happens with every method. And I understand the problems of posting (any method really) in a hot humid climate--our Southwest has some pretty hot and humid areas.



I may have better than average knowledge when it comes to posting ears on Dobermans but I'm a perfect idiot when it comes to computer programs. I don't have a clue about how to provide you with a link to American racks for sale on ecommerce

And I can't even give you a link to the "crowns, halos" but they come from House of Hoytt. "House of Hoytt quick brace system" and if you plug that into a search it will give you the kind of information you are looking for. There is a whole bunch of information. Lots of pictures and almost every version of their rack (which is the only common one I know of or could find) is priced and they seem to sell it as a complete kit or various parts and some slightly different versions and prices vary but some are marked as shipping included but I'd bet that is only for shipping inside the US.

So good luck--I'd be interested to know what method you finally decide on. Virtually any of them will work--some are easier on the dog and some are easier to learn to use. But rarely are they quick. That depends on the quality of the ear cartilage--and the persistence of posting (whatever method you are using). And I'd really like to see the ears as you change posts--so see their shape and the actual length.

dobebug[/QUOTE]

I don't know man, I didn't want to write anything, because I haven't post ears ages ago and did it with only a couple of dogs, but when I did I used a method very similar to the backer rod one, but I was teached to use -listen to this- tampons instead and put an extra piece of tape from ear to ear. I got very good results for example with the bitch in my profile picture.

So if I were in your position I would stick to one of two options: 1) stick to what my Vet says, more so if I've seen good results with other person dogs; or 2) try the method experienced people of this forum tell me. And of these two I'd choose the second option, because people have had, breed, showed and post dobermans for decades. Also people who shows those devices want to sell, so they're going to say their stuff is the best thing ever.

Now, for what I've seen your when your puppy gets uncomfortable he fights a little (or more than a little), so I think wearing those massive things over his head is going to make him take it off every time, and it's going to be more difficult to put it again every time. Plus it is pretty expensive compared to the methods of this forum.

Hope everything goes well
I don't know how to say this more nicely...

There aren't any "shortcuts" when it comes to a puppy, especially a Doberman.

No shortcuts to get their ears to stand nicely more quickly. No shortcuts to training them more quickly or more effectively. No shortcuts to a better dog.

If you can't be patient enough to post the ears for a few months...can you be patient enough to train your puppy? That's going to take much much longer than a few months. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm really not. But please give this some thought...you wanted a Doberman with nice ears, and that takes patience. The method you are looking at using is much less comfortable for your puppy. In the long run, it is beneficial to your pup to learn handling through ear posting, and to have a better relationship with you through the posting process. This is just the first of many times you will need to make a decision - what's in your puppy's best interest? Will you take the easy way out or will you pup your dog first?

@dobebug
I was going to reply earlier but I did want not waste your valuable time. So I completed some essential tasks.

1) I had to buy backer rod. I called and visited dozens of hardware stores, none of them had heard of backer rod. Backer Rod manufacturers in my city weren't willing to sell me small quantity required for the posting process. Luckily, one small manufacturer agreed to sell it to me. It was an awkward and embarrassing situation for me. Because he misunderstood me and thought that I was going to buy in bulk. Nonetheless he agreed to sell me 24 metres of backer foam rod for 100 rupees (1.3 usd). It made me cringe hard.


2) Zonas tape isn't available in here. So I had to buy an alternative. It's called leukoplast cloth tape. It's porous. I also bought porous surgical paper tape. Breeders in here only keep the post for 3 days. Some use porous surgical cloth tape, some use porous paper tape. I will post videos of two reputed Indian doberman breeders who posting their ears. The videos are crucial because I am going to follow simple backer rod method they follow. I won't be able to implement zip tie or other complicated modifications. I know my limitations.

3) I got the removed the tape with help of my Dad. The idiot surgeon had used normal surgical tape. He hadn't even shaved of some portions of ears or applied some powder. So I had to apply baby oil and give him some treats and remove the tape gently as much as possible. Because the tape was really sticky. I wasn't confident, but I did it in the end.


4) I took pics of his ears and somehow manage to measure his ears. He hates the measuring tape. His ears are bout 3.5 inches. He had small ears. The doctor did not cut upper part of his ears. Because I had told him I want a long crop.





Here are the videos of the two breeders whose backer rod method I am going to follow. The first one is in English(heavy accent) and the guy in the video is the best european doberman breeder in India and the second one is in a regional Indian language ( Punjabi). But the videos are easy to comprehend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpwBgUYL4Rw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysRH96a8tEM

I am going to attempt to post his ears tomorrow if they look healed. He did let me have a deep look.


I hope the details are enough.



Eagerly awaiting your reply.


Thanks!
 

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Just know—you probably will feel all thumbs and feel discouraged about your efforts the first few times—that happens to everyone. But stick with it and you'll be able to post in your sleep soon.

It's not super super hard, just fiddly and awkward at first. But once you get the knack of it—it's sorta like learning to ride a bike.

If you have any questions or want us to look at the job you did for things you can improve on, just ask away. And post pictures of your work.

You'll need to be posting pictures of your puppy anyway as he grows :wink2::grin2:
 

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@dobebug
I was going to reply earlier but I did want not waste your valuable time. So I completed some essential tasks.
My apology for not being very quick to respond--the unprecidented wild fires on the west coast (and many near Portland, Oregon) has our air quality being the worst in the world for several days--finally got some wind shift and rain yesterday which improved things for us but not for our downwind areas.

1) I had to buy backer rod. I called and visited dozens of hardware stores, none of them had heard of backer rod. Backer Rod manufacturers in my city weren't willing to sell me small quantity required for the posting process. Luckily, one small manufacturer agreed to sell it to me. It was an awkward and embarrassing situation for me. Because he misunderstood me and thought that I was going to buy in bulk. Nonetheless he agreed to sell me 24 metres of backer foam rod for 100 rupees (1.3 usd). It made me cringe hard.
In most places the stuff that gets called backer rod by the Dobe posting folk is pretty much called caulking rod (and used to fill big voids in areas that need to be caulked or filled before trying to fill the void with actual caulking compound).

I've sent people to hardware stores (large and small) to get the stuff and even told them to ask for caulking rod or explain what it's used for--in places I've actually bought it still have them coming back to me saying that there is no such thing--even though I have a package of it in my hand.

At least you found it--sorry it caused you embarassment but sometimes that happens.

2) Zonas tape isn't available in here. So I had to buy an alternative. It's called leukoplast cloth tape. It's porous. I also bought porous surgical paper tape. Breeders in here only keep the post for 3 days. Some use porous surgical cloth tape, some use porous paper tape. I will post videos of two reputed Indian doberman breeders who posting their ears. The videos are crucial because I am going to follow simple backer rod method they follow. I won't be able to implement zip tie or other complicated modifications. I know my limitations. .
I think that the leukoplast cloth tape is a reasonable substitute for Zonas by Johnson and Johnson. Like the Zonas it is a porous cloth, low tack (not terribly sticky) tape and I think that both are designed for sports type use--taping ankles and wrists for some types of sports where you tape frequently and take it off frequently. Or things like appliances post surgery. I know that some of the posting videos recommend using a paper tape (here it's usually made by 3M and I really don't like to use it but only because it doesn't conform to to irregular surfaces as easily as the cloth tapes.

And I looked at not only the two videos of posting that you linked but a good many other as well and I'll get back to that

3) I got the removed the tape with help of my Dad. The idiot surgeon had used normal surgical tape. He hadn't even shaved of some portions of ears or applied some powder. So I had to apply baby oil and give him some treats and remove the tape gently as much as possible. Because the tape was really sticky. I wasn't confident, but I did it in the end.
Ask at a pharmacy if there is a product to help remove adhesive bandages. That's the kind of thing we use Makes it very easy to dissolve enough of the adhesive of any kind of tape to make removal of it easy and not painful.

In a pinch you can use almost any kind of oil, baby oil, like you used, mineral oil, even plain old cooking oil--you just have to massage it around the edges of the tape and as they loosen you need to keep working it under the tape. I don't know what constitutes normal surgical tape in India but the Zonas tape is often used. Curity makes another similar product (I don't like it for ears because it is too sticky.) Ears are very frequently NOT shaved before cropping or before taping. And the method your surgeon uses to post ears would be kind of impossible to tape if you reduced the stickiness of the tape you used by powdering the ear. But basically the trick of getting tape off without hurting the puppy is to go slow and don't try to just pull it off without using something (like oil) to make the adhesive less sticky.

4) I took pics of his ears and somehow manage to measure his ears. He hates the measuring tape. His ears are bout 3.5 inches. He had small ears. The doctor did not cut upper part of his ears. Because I had told him I want a long crop.
OK, thanks, being able to see what the ear looks like makes it easier to suggest a method of posting that would work best for you and the pup.





Here are the videos of the two breeders whose backer rod method I am going to follow. The first one is in English(heavy accent) and the guy in the video is the best european doberman breeder in India and the second one is in a regional Indian language ( Punjabi). But the videos are easy to comprehend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpwBgUYL4Rw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysRH96a8tEM

I am going to attempt to post his ears tomorrow if they look healed. He did let me have a deep look.


I hope the details are enough.
Yes, thank you for the links. Even though neither method is entirely what we might use in the US they are similar and would work. It was very easy to follow both of them and you can use either or both. For the first one they tape the outer edge of the ear to stabilize is and you really, really want to make sure that edge is completely healed if you are using that method--covering unhealed edge will easily get infections going.

You said earlier somewhere that in India they only did three days. Did you mean they only posted three days at a time? For any hot areas especially any hot and humid areas that's as long as we'd be posting and ear too. Then we'd take it down and look at the ears to make sure they still were fully healed and no infected area had shown up. I think one of the videos said three days taped and a day off--I would not recommend leaving an ear untaped that long--here we would post for three days and remove the tape and post and clean the ear inside and out and let it dry. Two or three hours at most and then repost.

It looks like your pup has very good cartilage which means that you will probably have standing ears with a fairly short posting period. If you would take pictures of the first posting and then take pictures of the first time they are unposted so I can see what they look like that would be helpful.

Also, I will point out that in the two videos you posted and in others I found to look at from both India and other non American or non European methods of posting that most of the crops were quite short--which is most often going to mean that the ears will be done and standing properly in a relatively short period of time.

If you use oil to remove tape remember that you need to get all of that off or you'll have a hard time getting the new tape to stick. So use a qood liquid detergent and water to remove the oily residue--inside and out--and then rinse that with plain water and make sure the ear is completely dry before you start trying to post.

As above someone posted that you'd feel all thumbs when you first started posting but after some practice you'll get the hang of it.

Good luck,

dobebug
 

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Hi APS89,

I was just checking to see if I'd left anything out in my last post to you.

In the first video--the one in English by the man you say is the best breeder in India--at the very beginning he is waving a pair of scissors around and says they are "bandage" scissors. I didn't get everything he said about the scissor but I believe he was recommending that if you were posting ears you should get a pair to use when you were removing the tape and posts to repost

Bandage scissors are probably expensive but they make the job of removing the tape from a posted ear a lot easier and less dangerous.

Those scissors have a flattened tip--this makes it easier to slide the scissors down the ear under the tape so you can work the remover (what ever you are using) under the tape easily.

Using conventional scissor with points can accidently catch the skin of the ear and leave a big laceration that you'll have to let heal before you can start the posting process again.

Sorry I left that out of the earlier post--since the Indian breeder made a big point of using bandage scissor when posting.

Again, good luck and keep us posted (ha ha, that was a bad joke).

dobebug
 

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@dobebug
I was going to reply earlier but I did want not waste your valuable time. So I completed some essential tasks.
My apology for not being very quick to respond--the unprecidented wild fires on the west coast (and many near Portland, Oregon) has our air quality being the worst in the world for several days--finally got some wind shift and rain yesterday which improved things for us but not for our downwind areas.

1) I had to buy backer rod. I called and visited dozens of hardware stores, none of them had heard of backer rod. Backer Rod manufacturers in my city weren't willing to sell me small quantity required for the posting process. Luckily, one small manufacturer agreed to sell it to me. It was an awkward and embarrassing situation for me. Because he misunderstood me and thought that I was going to buy in bulk. Nonetheless he agreed to sell me 24 metres of backer foam rod for 100 rupees (1.3 usd). It made me cringe hard.
In most places the stuff that gets called backer rod by the Dobe posting folk is pretty much called caulking rod (and used to fill big voids in areas that need to be caulked or filled before trying to fill the void with actual caulking compound).

I've sent people to hardware stores (large and small) to get the stuff and even told them to ask for caulking rod or explain what it's used for--in places I've actually bought it still have them coming back to me saying that there is no such thing--even though I have a package of it in my hand.

At least you found it--sorry it caused you embarassment but sometimes that happens.

2) Zonas tape isn't available in here. So I had to buy an alternative. It's called leukoplast cloth tape. It's porous. I also bought porous surgical paper tape. Breeders in here only keep the post for 3 days. Some use porous surgical cloth tape, some use porous paper tape. I will post videos of two reputed Indian doberman breeders who posting their ears. The videos are crucial because I am going to follow simple backer rod method they follow. I won't be able to implement zip tie or other complicated modifications. I know my limitations. .
I think that the leukoplast cloth tape is a reasonable substitute for Zonas by Johnson and Johnson. Like the Zonas it is a porous cloth, low tack (not terribly sticky) tape and I think that both are designed for sports type use--taping ankles and wrists for some types of sports where you tape frequently and take it off frequently. Or things like appliances post surgery. I know that some of the posting videos recommend using a paper tape (here it's usually made by 3M and I really don't like to use it but only because it doesn't conform to to irregular surfaces as easily as the cloth tapes.

And I looked at not only the two videos of posting that you linked but a good many other as well and I'll get back to that

3) I got the removed the tape with help of my Dad. The idiot surgeon had used normal surgical tape. He hadn't even shaved of some portions of ears or applied some powder. So I had to apply baby oil and give him some treats and remove the tape gently as much as possible. Because the tape was really sticky. I wasn't confident, but I did it in the end.
Ask at a pharmacy if there is a product to help remove adhesive bandages. That's the kind of thing we use Makes it very easy to dissolve enough of the adhesive of any kind of tape to make removal of it easy and not painful.

In a pinch you can use almost any kind of oil, baby oil, like you used, mineral oil, even plain old cooking oil--you just have to massage it around the edges of the tape and as they loosen you need to keep working it under the tape. I don't know what constitutes normal surgical tape in India but the Zonas tape is often used. Curity makes another similar product (I don't like it for ears because it is too sticky.) Ears are very frequently NOT shaved before cropping or before taping. And the method your surgeon uses to post ears would be kind of impossible to tape if you reduced the stickiness of the tape you used by powdering the ear. But basically the trick of getting tape off without hurting the puppy is to go slow and don't try to just pull it off without using something (like oil) to make the adhesive less sticky.

4) I took pics of his ears and somehow manage to measure his ears. He hates the measuring tape. His ears are bout 3.5 inches. He had small ears. The doctor did not cut upper part of his ears. Because I had told him I want a long crop.
OK, thanks, being able to see what the ear looks like makes it easier to suggest a method of posting that would work best for you and the pup.





Here are the videos of the two breeders whose backer rod method I am going to follow. The first one is in English(heavy accent) and the guy in the video is the best european doberman breeder in India and the second one is in a regional Indian language ( Punjabi). But the videos are easy to comprehend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpwBgUYL4Rw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysRH96a8tEM

I am going to attempt to post his ears tomorrow if they look healed. He did let me have a deep look.


I hope the details are enough.
Yes, thank you for the links. Even though neither method is entirely what we might use in the US they are similar and would work. It was very easy to follow both of them and you can use either or both. For the first one they tape the outer edge of the ear to stabilize is and you really, really want to make sure that edge is completely healed if you are using that method--covering unhealed edge will easily get infections going.

You said earlier somewhere that in India they only did three days. Did you mean they only posted three days at a time? For any hot areas especially any hot and humid areas that's as long as we'd be posting and ear too. Then we'd take it down and look at the ears to make sure they still were fully healed and no infected area had shown up. I think one of the videos said three days taped and a day off--I would not recommend leaving an ear untaped that long--here we would post for three days and remove the tape and post and clean the ear inside and out and let it dry. Two or three hours at most and then repost.

It looks like your pup has very good cartilage which means that you will probably have standing ears with a fairly short posting period. If you would take pictures of the first posting and then take pictures of the first time they are unposted so I can see what they look like that would be helpful.

Also, I will point out that in the two videos you posted and in others I found to look at from both India and other non American or non European methods of posting that most of the crops were quite short--which is most often going to mean that the ears will be done and standing properly in a relatively short period of time.

If you use oil to remove tape remember that you need to get all of that off or you'll have a hard time getting the new tape to stick. So use a qood liquid detergent and water to remove the oily residue--inside and out--and then rinse that with plain water and make sure the ear is completely dry before you start trying to post.

As above someone posted that you'd feel all thumbs when you first started posting but after some practice you'll get the hang of it.

Good luck,

dobebug
Hi APS89,

I was just checking to see if I'd left anything out in my last post to you.

In the first video--the one in English by the man you say is the best breeder in India--at the very beginning he is waving a pair of scissors around and says they are "bandage" scissors. I didn't get everything he said about the scissor but I believe he was recommending that if you were posting ears you should get a pair to use when you were removing the tape and posts to repost

Bandage scissors are probably expensive but they make the job of removing the tape from a posted ear a lot easier and less dangerous.

Those scissors have a flattened tip--this makes it easier to slide the scissors down the ear under the tape so you can work the remover (what ever you are using) under the tape easily.

Using conventional scissor with points can accidently catch the skin of the ear and leave a big laceration that you'll have to let heal before you can start the posting process again.

Sorry I left that out of the earlier post--since the Indian breeder made a big point of using bandage scissor when posting.

Again, good luck and keep us posted (ha ha, that was a bad joke).

dobebug
Both of them said they change the post after 3 days.

The first guy is using porous cloth tape for everything.

The 2nd guy is using paper tape for wrapping the ears. And cloth tape for the bridge.

I sent pics of my pup to my surgeon and he called me immediately. He asked me to tape his ears using his method atleast 2 times. Then use whatever method I want. He told me had 20 years of cropping experience and considered to be the best cropping surgeon in my state. Told me his reputation was at stake and would give me a full refund if his ears did not stand after two tapings. He examined pics and told me I only require 2 (or 3 at the maximum) posting using his method.


Yesterday, I taped him using his method. I will use his method once again then go back to backer rod method if his ears don't stand permanently. The reason I did that was ears were standing straight a day after I removed the tape.







I know that experts on this website are experienced and knowledgeable than me. And have given me the best advice. But I feel like I have to give my surgeon a chance. Maybe it would lead to a discovery of a new method.

Once again thanks for your informative posts. I ordered a surgical scissor. After watching his video, I did not think it was necessary. But after cutting his tape with normal scissor and read your post, I changed my mind.

I will keep post his pics in this thread.

Hope you keep helping me out till his ears permanently stand.

I need to ask for another favour. Can you recommend me some videos of youtube trainer who teaches how to train very stubborn dobermans to idiots like me.

Thanks @dobebug
 

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Well you are sounding more like you think you will be able to post this puppies ears--good--see, it's not all that hard and the puppy must be being more cooperative for you. That's good too.

Both of them said they change the post after 3 days.

The first guy is using porous cloth tape for everything.

The 2nd guy is using paper tape for wrapping the ears. And cloth tape for the bridge.
Yeah, I saw that but wasn't terribly surprised since I know several people who do the same kind of thing--paper tape for the ears themselves and cloth tape for the brace.

I evidently don't know east from west these days--must have been all that smoke from the wild fires. When I said that we get some pretty hot humid weather in the south west--I actually meant in the Southeast--part of the country. The south west tends to be more desert like--and pretty dry. But even in my area (Portland , Oregon--pretty temperate weather most of the times and mostly not very humid--well, unless it's actually raining) During the summer we don't post puppies for more than three or four days when it's hot. In the spring and fall you can actually leave posts up for five or six days.

I sent pics of my pup to my surgeon and he called me immediately. He asked me to tape his ears using his method atleast 2 times. Then use whatever method I want. He told me had 20 years of cropping experience and considered to be the best cropping surgeon in my state. Told me his reputation was at stake and would give me a full refund if his ears did not stand after two tapings. He examined pics and told me I only require 2 (or 3 at the maximum) posting using his method.
Your poor surgeon--here's the thing that concerns me about his method--see that big curve that your puppy's ears take--that's because of the way they are taped and if that's the only kind of taping (over the head) you do I'm not sure how you would have standing ears. Seems to me that they would end up needing to be supported as they when posted --to give you a straight ear. But I don't really see anything horribly wrong with taping them across the head at the beginning--in fact I can actually see some advantage to it for making sure the base is sturdy enough to support the upper part of the the ear.

Yesterday, I taped him using his method. I will use his method once again then go back to backer rod method if his ears don't stand permanently. The reason I did that was ears were standing straight a day after I removed the tape.




I know that experts on this website are experienced and knowledgeable than me. And have given me the best advice. But I feel like I have to give my surgeon a chance. Maybe it would lead to a discovery of a new method.
I tell people all the time that there are lots of different ways of posting puppy's ears--and I also tell them that they pretty much all work if you are persistent and keep posting and don't stop and start which sometimes people do and then can't figure out why the ears aren't standing. Periodically I go through Google looking for information on how to get standing ears and go looking at many sites to see if there is anything new and better than what I do and teach other people to do.

I haven't seen a really new method (or a different enough method--although the use of zip ties comes close and is really good for a very specific type of crop). But what I do see pretty regularly are small things that just make a part of the process go more easily. Spotted one of these in one of the non-English speaking videos--but I saw what they were doing and thought to myself--maybe I should try this on the puppy I'm posting for a woman right now. That puppy is a year old and wasn't posted properly through a couple of "didn't quite work out" homes--really through no fault of his. He's a sweet dog and really wants to please. And while one of his ears is finally standing properly the other still has a way to go.

Your puppy, by the way, has a longer crop than most of the pictures I saw in the videos but as I said before--he appears to have very good cartilage and this makes a huge amount of difference when you are trying to get ears to stand.

Once again thanks for your informative posts. I ordered a surgical scissor. After watching his video, I did not think it was necessary. But after cutting his tape with normal scissor and read your post, I changed my mind.

I will keep post his pics in this thread.

Hope you keep helping me out till his ears permanently stand.

I need to ask for another favour. Can you recommend me some videos of youtube trainer who teaches how to train very stubborn dobermans to idiots like me.

Thanks @dobebug
No need to thank me--when I was brand new to dog shows and Dobermans a lot of people helped me with everything from ear posting to handling my dog to his first championship--I've always figured that anything that I can do to help another person along with this kind of stuff is just a pay back.

I'm glad you ordered the scissors--you'll find it much less scary to remove tape using them than the regular pointed scissors.

Please, please--keep sending pictures --we love pictures of puppies and I want to see how his ears progress.

I absolute will be following this thread for progress of your puppy--what's his name--if you told us, I've forgotten...

And I'm going to ask RoseMary if she'll send you a link for a very good on line training outfit.

Rosemary? Would you put up a Fenzi link for our new owner who needs help with his puppy--I suspect that the puppy has him bamboozled... thanks much

dobebug
 

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And I'm going to ask RoseMary if she'll send you a link for a very good on line training outfit.

Rosemary? Would you put up a Fenzi link for our new owner who needs help with his puppy--I suspect that the puppy has him bamboozled... thanks much

dobebug
You mean the free puppy ebook? It's https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/self-study/growing-up-fdsa-free-ebook Just click on the link, and you will be able to download the book. There is also a link on that page if you want to download it as a PDF file.

The full website is https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Well you are sounding more like you think you will be able to post this puppies ears--good--see, it's not all that hard and the puppy must be being more cooperative for you. That's good too.



Yeah, I saw that but wasn't terribly surprised since I know several people who do the same kind of thing--paper tape for the ears themselves and cloth tape for the brace.

I evidently don't know east from west these days--must have been all that smoke from the wild fires. When I said that we get some pretty hot humid weather in the south west--I actually meant in the Southeast--part of the country. The south west tends to be more desert like--and pretty dry. But even in my area (Portland , Oregon--pretty temperate weather most of the times and mostly not very humid--well, unless it's actually raining) During the summer we don't post puppies for more than three or four days when it's hot. In the spring and fall you can actually leave posts up for five or six days.



Your poor surgeon--here's the thing that concerns me about his method--see that big curve that your puppy's ears take--that's because of the way they are taped and if that's the only kind of taping (over the head) you do I'm not sure how you would have standing ears. Seems to me that they would end up needing to be supported as they when posted --to give you a straight ear. But I don't really see anything horribly wrong with taping them across the head at the beginning--in fact I can actually see some advantage to it for making sure the base is sturdy enough to support the upper part of the the ear.



I tell people all the time that there are lots of different ways of posting puppy's ears--and I also tell them that they pretty much all work if you are persistent and keep posting and don't stop and start which sometimes people do and then can't figure out why the ears aren't standing. Periodically I go through Google looking for information on how to get standing ears and go looking at many sites to see if there is anything new and better than what I do and teach other people to do.

I haven't seen a really new method (or a different enough method--although the use of zip ties comes close and is really good for a very specific type of crop). But what I do see pretty regularly are small things that just make a part of the process go more easily. Spotted one of these in one of the non-English speaking videos--but I saw what they were doing and thought to myself--maybe I should try this on the puppy I'm posting for a woman right now. That puppy is a year old and wasn't posted properly through a couple of "didn't quite work out" homes--really through no fault of his. He's a sweet dog and really wants to please. And while one of his ears is finally standing properly the other still has a way to go.

Your puppy, by the way, has a longer crop than most of the pictures I saw in the videos but as I said before--he appears to have very good cartilage and this makes a huge amount of difference when you are trying to get ears to stand.



No need to thank me--when I was brand new to dog shows and Dobermans a lot of people helped me with everything from ear posting to handling my dog to his first championship--I've always figured that anything that I can do to help another person along with this kind of stuff is just a pay back.

I'm glad you ordered the scissors--you'll find it much less scary to remove tape using them than the regular pointed scissors.

Please, please--keep sending pictures --we love pictures of puppies and I want to see how his ears progress.

I absolute will be following this thread for progress of your puppy--what's his name--if you told us, I've forgotten...

And I'm going to ask RoseMary if she'll send you a link for a very good on line training outfit.

Rosemary? Would you put up a Fenzi link for our new owner who needs help with his puppy--I suspect that the puppy has him bamboozled... thanks much

dobebug
The surgeon said to me that his taping method to necessary to make the muscles bend to stand straight. I don't whether he meant muscle or cartilage. Hence I need atleast use method 2 times. If required 3 times. No more than that. He called me again and told that.

Would giving him calcium, glucosamine Chondroitin, collagen supplements make his cartilage hard? Would that help the ears stand quicker?

I have read conflicting posts on this matter.




I was just wondering how long are ears of 3 month old Doberman puppies.


I was browsing through this website and saw pics of various dobermans. Most in here seem to have European dobermans. Their head size is bigger. Their jaws are bigger. They are darker. And they look meaner and more muscular. Their ears look longer. It feels the European ones are the real dobermans. Because they look intimidating.

Low quality Euro Doberman puppies cost 5 times more than an average quality American Doberman puppy. I haven't seen an Euro Doberman in real life ever. Most people probably don't even know that there two kinds of dobermans. And I have seen expensive foreign breeds like St Bernards, Chow Chows, Bichon frise and even Huskies. Many idiots in here are keeping huskies in a mostly hot country. Hollywood dog movies influence I guess.

Rottweilers, American bullies and even Dogo Argentinos don't cost much nowadays. But European Doberman cost a lot. Not many breeders and awareness I guess.


I downloaded the book recommended by your friend. I am going to read it. Because the language is simple and it's pretty short. I am thankful to all of you.

Maybe one day I can become a breeder and participate in shows.
 

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The surgeon said to me that his taping method to necessary to make the muscles bend to stand straight. I don't whether he meant muscle or cartilage. Hence I need atleast use method 2 times. If required 3 times. No more than that. He called me again and told that.
Interesting idea and I'm very interested in seeing the end result.

Would giving him calcium, glucosamine Chondroitin, collagen supplements make his cartilage hard? Would that help the ears stand quicker?

I have read conflicting posts on this matter.
Do not give extra calcium--you can actually harm a growing puppy with an excess of calcium and it must be balanced, in any, with phosphate--both are components of bones. Even very bad commercial formulas for puppies, large breed puppies or all life stages contain as much calcium as your puppy will need. This has been true for many years now--back in the 1950's some of the early manufacturers were not at all careful about what the food was made of and you did need to add calcium--but this hasn't been the case for many years. So NO don't add calcium.

None of the other things you've probably read will miraculously make the ears stand faster really don't. What makes the ears stand is the process of the ear leather hardening as it matures. There really are no additives that will hurry this process along.

Frankly there are a ton of things that show up on the internet that claim to be a magic way of getting ears to stand. So if there was a magic way to speed things up I've been posting ears on Dobes since 1959--that's 61 years and I haven't found any magic ways to speed the process up. But I have found that methods that were being successfully used with my first Doberman, with really only minor variations work just as well today and in all those years I've never had a crop that failed to stand and stand properly. So forget the magic and rely on what works. That is posting the ear (and really, whatever method you choose (I will wait to see how your surgeons method works because I've never seen a method like that which anyone claimed gave them perfect standing ears in three postings) and continuing to post the ear until it the cartilage has harden enough that the ear stands.

Good luck and I'm really excited about seeing the results of your surgeons method.

I was just wondering how long are ears of 3 month old Doberman puppies.
Cropped or uncropped? That's going to vary with the puppy--some puppies have very long uncropped ears and some don't. Frankly if you are going to have an uncropped dog the shorter/smaller ear looks a lot better than the very long ear which tends to look rather like a hound ear when not cropped.

I was browsing through this website and saw pics of various dobermans. Most in here seem to have European dobermans. Their head size is bigger. Their jaws are bigger. They are darker. And they look meaner and more muscular. Their ears look longer. It feels the European ones are the real dobermans. Because they look intimidating.
What website was that? And I would not recessarily put a lot of trust in what you see in pictures only. I think that for many people just the look of any Doberman is enough to have them crossing the street because they evidently believe all of the stories about how bad Dobermans are. I've definitely had Dobes of mine who have all been American showline dogs who have scared the pants off of vendors who have come to my door. One of my champion males was very small--barely 27" which is well within the standard but somehow a lot of people think a Doberman should be oversize to be impressive. But I took that dog to the door with me and he would sit and stare at whoever was outside. He had a very dark eye and seemed to intimidate people. One man made the mistake of putting his hand on the door pull and start to open the door, when he did that my dog stood and took one step toward him. That man left--he decided he didn't want to try to sell me anything that day.

Low quality Euro Doberman puppies cost 5 times more than an average quality American Doberman puppy. I haven't seen an Euro Doberman in real life ever. Most people probably don't even know that there two kinds of dobermans. And I have seen expensive foreign breeds like St Bernards, Chow Chows, Bichon frise and even Huskies. Many idiots in here are keeping huskies in a mostly hot country. Hollywood dog movies influence I guess.

Rottweilers, American bullies and even Dogo Argentinos don't cost much nowadays. But European Doberman cost a lot. Not many breeders and awareness I guess.


I downloaded the book recommended by your friend. I am going to read it. Because the language is simple and it's pretty short. I am thankful to all of you.

Maybe one day I can become a breeder and participate in shows.
You know what? When it comes to buying dogs there is no shortage of bad breeders producing medicre puppies that they sell for a lot of money. We see a lot of them.

I couldn't even begin to guess why European Dobes cost so much--but I've heard that they do--I also hear that there are a lot of scam artists who don't deliver on what they've promised.

There is an old saying "Let the buyer beware" And if you are buying dogs or horses it's well to remember it since it's good advice.

dobebug
 

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The surgeon said to me that his taping method to necessary to make the muscles bend to stand straight. I don't whether he meant muscle or cartilage. Hence I need atleast use method 2 times. If required 3 times. No more than that. He called me again and told that.
Interesting idea and I'm very interested in seeing the end result.

Would giving him calcium, glucosamine Chondroitin, collagen supplements make his cartilage hard? Would that help the ears stand quicker?

I have read conflicting posts on this matter.
Do not give extra calcium--you can actually harm a growing puppy with an excess of calcium and it must be balanced, in any, with phosphate--both are components of bones. Even very bad commercial formulas for puppies, large breed puppies or all life stages contain as much calcium as your puppy will need. This has been true for many years now--back in the 1950's some of the early manufacturers were not at all careful about what the food was made of and you did need to add calcium--but this hasn't been the case for many years. So NO don't add calcium.

None of the other things you've probably read will miraculously make the ears stand faster really don't. What makes the ears stand is the process of the ear leather hardening as it matures. There really are no additives that will hurry this process along.

Frankly there are a ton of things that show up on the internet that claim to be a magic way of getting ears to stand. So if there was a magic way to speed things up I've been posting ears on Dobes since 1959--that's 61 years and I haven't found any magic ways to speed the process up. But I have found that methods that were being successfully used with my first Doberman, with really only minor variations work just as well today and in all those years I've never had a crop that failed to stand and stand properly. So forget the magic and rely on what works. That is posting the ear (and really, whatever method you choose (I will wait to see how your surgeons method works because I've never seen a method like that which anyone claimed gave them perfect standing ears in three postings) and continuing to post the ear until it the cartilage has harden enough that the ear stands.

Good luck and I'm really excited about seeing the results of your surgeons method.

I was just wondering how long are ears of 3 month old Doberman puppies.
Cropped or uncropped? That's going to vary with the puppy--some puppies have very long uncropped ears and some don't. Frankly if you are going to have an uncropped dog the shorter/smaller ear looks a lot better than the very long ear which tends to look rather like a hound ear when not cropped.

I was browsing through this website and saw pics of various dobermans. Most in here seem to have European dobermans. Their head size is bigger. Their jaws are bigger. They are darker. And they look meaner and more muscular. Their ears look longer. It feels the European ones are the real dobermans. Because they look intimidating.
What website was that? And I would not recessarily put a lot of trust in what you see in pictures only. I think that for many people just the look of any Doberman is enough to have them crossing the street because they evidently believe all of the stories about how bad Dobermans are. I've definitely had Dobes of mine who have all been American showline dogs who have scared the pants off of vendors who have come to my door. One of my champion males was very small--barely 27" which is well within the standard but somehow a lot of people think a Doberman should be oversize to be impressive. But I took that dog to the door with me and he would sit and stare at whoever was outside. He had a very dark eye and seemed to intimidate people. One man made the mistake of putting his hand on the door pull and start to open the door, when he did that my dog stood and took one step toward him. That man left--he decided he didn't want to try to sell me anything that day.

Low quality Euro Doberman puppies cost 5 times more than an average quality American Doberman puppy. I haven't seen an Euro Doberman in real life ever. Most people probably don't even know that there two kinds of dobermans. And I have seen expensive foreign breeds like St Bernards, Chow Chows, Bichon frise and even Huskies. Many idiots in here are keeping huskies in a mostly hot country. Hollywood dog movies influence I guess.

Rottweilers, American bullies and even Dogo Argentinos don't cost much nowadays. But European Doberman cost a lot. Not many breeders and awareness I guess.


I downloaded the book recommended by your friend. I am going to read it. Because the language is simple and it's pretty short. I am thankful to all of you.

Maybe one day I can become a breeder and participate in shows.
You know what? When it comes to buying dogs there is no shortage of bad breeders producing medicre puppies that they sell for a lot of money. We see a lot of them.

I couldn't even begin to guess why European Dobes cost so much--but I've heard that they do--I also hear that there are a lot of scam artists who don't deliver on what they've promised.

There is an old saying "Let the buyer beware" And if you are buying dogs or horses it's well to remember it since it's good advice.

dobebug
I am going to tweak my surgeon's method for next 2 tapings. I am not going to tape them so low.

I see pics on Facebook groups and Doberman forums. They mostly look euro.


Like I said earlier there are lot of backyard breeders in India and lax regulations. Even the premium dog shops buy dogs from these backyard Breeders and sell them at an exorbitant price.

There is a single legit European Doberman breeder in my state which has a population of 120 million.

The almost all shops/breeders/traders who sell european dobermans are conmen. They masquerade good quality American Dobermans as European dobermans. In here good quality means, thick bones, more muscle mass and long ears for Dobermans.

Look at this fraudster selling low quality American puppies to potential European Doberman buyers. In here, many fall for it because there is lack of awareness regarding dogs.

https://youtu.be/OJY4q2gOFRg
 

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I don't know how to say this more nicely...

There aren't any "shortcuts" when it comes to a puppy, especially a Doberman.

No shortcuts to get their ears to stand nicely more quickly. No shortcuts to training them more quickly or more effectively. No shortcuts to a better dog.

If you can't be patient enough to post the ears for a few months...can you be patient enough to train your puppy? That's going to take much much longer than a few months. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm really not. But please give this some thought...you wanted a Doberman with nice ears, and that takes patience. The method you are looking at using is much less comfortable for your puppy. In the long run, it is beneficial to your pup to learn handling through ear posting, and to have a better relationship with you through the posting process. This is just the first of many times you will need to make a decision - what's in your puppy's best interest? Will you take the easy way out or will you pup your dog first?
This is a OUTSTANDING post Meadowcat ! Outstanding - even if you were be'n' a jerk - LOL btw - just kidding on the jerk part , but that was to funny and you know me :grin2::grin2:

You hit so many points dead on .

Doc
 
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