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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi Guys,
My boys is 5 months already. His ears are standing but I’m afraid they did a bad job when cropping. He moves his ears in so many different position, but there is a specific front view where his ears look so big and the bell and shape look so awful.
Someone told me he was supposed to stitch the bottom edges together. I’ll post some pictures.
Edit it to attach photos again. I hope guys can see them this time.
Also added some side view. Tbh it’s really hard to take pictures of him bc he is a little hyperactive. I do have plenty of videos but idk how to share them.
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Big Lil pup
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Hi bleu.
Could you post a few pics from the side, so we can compare them to the post surgery photo that the cropping surgeon provided. That photo (second from the top) looks pretty darn good to me. And, from what I can see, your pup has had the same V shaped wedge excised and sutured up as the first pic that was sent to you.

Other things:
-Based on the same photo, that is what I would consider a somewhat "medium" crop these days. Longer than some, but not yet falling into the category of a "long" crop. Contemporary "show" crops are considerably longer. But, then again, the terms short, military, medium, show, long show, etc. are totally subjective and also depends on what breed you are referencing. Basically... your idea of a medium crop on a Doberman, very well might not be what another person would call that style of crop. Especially the surgeon. When they say medium, they are talking THEIR medium.

- At five months, you should still be posting. The ears are standing right now. But the tips are still weak (4th photo) and could be straightened. Plus, it is not uncommon for ears to flag, or even completely fail, if you do not post all the way through teething and (IMO), then some. Many dogs here with similar crops have been posted until or even beyond their 8th month. Occasionally, well beyond that.

Finally... In my experience, at just 5 months, your dogs head and body will continue to grow disproportionately larger than his ears. Basically, ears tend to appear smaller as the pup matures.

There are others here who have a better aesthetic take on the various sizes and shapes of ear crops and my guess is that some of them will chime in.

John L
Portland OR
 

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Overall I think it is a fitting crop job. When you look from the front, I think the bell area is a bit bigger than I would like. Normally it is a straight line from the top of the ear down to the edge of the cheek, you don't have the bell sticking out there much. But I wouldn't call it a bad job either, there are some truly unfortunate looking crops out there. I would just embrace it for what it is and enjoy your pup!
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi bleu.
Could you post a few pics from the side, so we can compare them to the post surgery photo that the cropping surgeon provided. That photo (second from the top) looks pretty darn good to me. And, from what I can see, your pup has had the same V shaped wedge excised and sutured up as the first pic that was sent to you.

Other things:
-Based on the same photo, that is what I would consider a somewhat "medium" crop these days. Longer than some, but not yet falling into the category of a "long" crop. Contemporary "show" crops are considerably longer. But, then again, the terms short, military, medium, show, long show, etc. are totally subjective and also depends on what breed you are referencing. Basically... your idea of a medium crop on a Doberman, very well might not be what another person would call that style of crop. Especially the surgeon. When they say medium, they are talking THEIR medium.

- At five months, you should still be posting. The ears are standing right now. But the tips are still weak (4th photo) and could be straightened. Plus, it is not uncommon for ears to flag, or even completely fail, if you do not post all the way through teething and (IMO), then some. Many dogs here with similar crops have been posted until or even beyond their 8th month. Occasionally, well beyond that.

Finally... In my experience, at just 5 months, your dogs head and body will continue to grow disproportionately larger than his ears. Basically, ears tend to appear smaller as the pup matures.

There are others here who have a better aesthetic take on the various sizes and shapes of ear crops and my guess is that some of them will chime in.

John L
Portland OR
Wow! Thank you so much for the explanation. I feel much better now after reading your comment. I’ll still posting them until the age you mentioned, but I took some pictures since I was changing the posts.

I‘ll post some pictures of the side, but it was basically the first one (the one I don’t like)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Overall I think it is a fitting crop job. When you look from the front, I think the bell area is a bit bigger than I would like. Normally it is a straight line from the top of the ear down to the edge of the cheek, you don't have the bell sticking out there much. But I wouldn't call it a bad job either, there are some truly unfortunate looking crops out there. I would just embrace it for what it is and enjoy your pup!
Thank you so much. I’m also asking because I have a second puppy and I have to decide where to take him. Honestly, I don’t want my dog to go through all that process and end up with a bad crop.
 

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Big Lil pup
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Hi Bleu (Again)

If you do indeed have a 5 month old and have another puppy in addition, I am going to offer you some unsolicited advice:

You should investigate Littermate Syndrome. It is easily researched on the internet. And, in fact, if you use the Search Community feature here on DT you will get some decent insight. While the term used is the word "littermate", it actually applies to issues that can occur when raising any 2 dogs, as puppies that are close in age. It is a real phenomenon, and can cause all kinds of problems without serious adjustment to schedule and training. Do not avoid the topic and simply hope it will not happen to your pups.

If your 2 pups are male Dobermans.... Your seriously need to consider rehoming or returning one. Dobermans are a breed prone to an inherently dangerous, and potentially ingrained behavior known as Same Sex Aggression. If and when SSA rears its ugly head, your household can be thrown into total turmoil. It is generally believed that one SSA presents, there is no going back. No amount of behavioral training can reverse it. Separation is the only course.

SSA combined with Littermate Syndrome would be a true nightmare

I have been there. My easy going 3 dog, 2 human home became the household from hell, when one of my two boys, who were 5 and 7 years old, and had been together their entire life, decided that his "brother" had die. After that, they could never be together again and had to remain separated via crate and rotate, until the older one passed from natural causes. SSA is also easily researched online. and you can also start here.

Best to you

John L
Portland OR
 

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I think you pretty much got what you asked for from your cropper. That's what I would call a medium crop. And like KristenC there is more bell than I want left--but I'm always looking for a long "show " crop and typically those would have less bell but your cropper did "stitch the bottom together. What the cropper does is take a wedge section out of the base of the ear and suture edges of that together and trim the upper part of the ear (the pinna--or ear leather) so the it meets the place where the wedge section was removed.

It leaves you with a crop designed to show off the Doberman head so the bell does not stick out but there is a smooth line from the muzzle to the ear.

It's not a bad crop--you do need to keep posting --you could do a lot worse. So unless you know of a cropper who does Doberman show crops you are probably safe having the other puppy cropped there too.

I sure don't envy you--trying to raise two puppies at the same time?--Dobermans? Good luck with that--I try to space my puppies out so that the older one is somewhere between two and three years--let's the younger puppy learn how to behave from a dog who has already been through the process.

Good luck

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi bleu.
Could you post a few pics from the side, so we can compare them to the post surgery photo that the cropping surgeon provided. That photo (second from the top) looks pretty darn good to me. And, from what I can see, your pup has had the same V shaped wedge excised and sutured up as the first pic that was sent to you.

Other things:
-Based on the same photo, that is what I would consider a somewhat "medium" crop these days. Longer than some, but not yet falling into the category of a "long" crop. Contemporary "show" crops are considerably longer. But, then again, the terms short, military, medium, show, long show, etc. are totally subjective and also depends on what breed you are referencing. Basically... your idea of a medium crop on a Doberman, very well might not be what another person would call that style of crop. Especially the surgeon. When they say medium, they are talking THEIR medium.

- At five months, you should still be posting. The ears are standing right now. But the tips are still weak (4th photo) and could be straightened. Plus, it is not uncommon for ears to flag, or even completely fail, if you do not post all the way through teething and (IMO), then some. Many dogs here with similar crops have been posted until or even beyond their 8th month. Occasionally, well beyond that.

Finally... In my experience, at just 5 months, your dogs head and body will continue to grow disproportionately larger than his ears. Basically, ears tend to appear smaller as the pup matures.

There are others here who have a better aesthetic take on the various sizes and shapes of ear crops and my guess is that some of them will chime in.

John L
Portland OR
Hi Bleu (Again)

If you do indeed have a 5 month old and have another puppy in addition, I am going to offer you some unsolicited advice:

You should investigate
. It is easily researched on the internet. And, in fact, if you use the Search Community feature here on DT you will get some decent insight. While the term used is the word "littermate", it actually applies to issues that can occur when raising any 2 dogs, as puppies that are close in age. It is a real phenomenon, and can cause all kinds of problems without serious adjustment to schedule and training. Do not avoid the topic and simply hope it will not happen to your pups.

If your 2 pups are male Dobermans.... Your seriously need to consider rehoming or returning one. Dobermans are a breed prone to an inherently dangerous, and potentially ingrained behavior known as Same Sex Aggression. If and when SSA rears its ugly head, your household can be thrown into total turmoil. It is generally believed that one SSA presents, there is no going back. No amount of behavioral training can reverse it. Separation is the only course.

SSA combined with Littermate Syndrome would be a true nightmare

I have been there. My easy going 3 dog, 2 human home became the household from hell, when one of my two boys, who were 5 and 7 years old, and had been together their entire life, decided that his "brother" had die. After that, they could never be together again and had to remain separated via crate and rotate, until the older one passed from natural causes. SSA is also easily researched online. and you can also start here.

Best to you

John L
Portland OR
Hey John,
Thank you for the advice. I’ll do some research on the topic. So far they do great together. Also, since I have Bleu (the one on the pictures) I would always ask my friends to bring their dogs over , so he could share toys, space and stuff like that.
He used to have separation anxiety, my solution was to take him to my brother’s place since he has 2 dogs and it worked great for me.
So far they have adjusted very well, I didn’t have to potty trained the small one, he basically just followed the big one.
They spend most of the time playing tug, chase…they do really well, but I’ll keep an eye on them
 

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Just so you know, same sex aggression can happen suddenly, even in dobes who have played together successfully for years. The pups will often get along before they are mature, and then all hell breaks lose. It doesn't happen with every male/male doberman household, but even once they are both adults and seem to get along fine, they can flip a switch, so to speak, and then you have two adult mature dobermans who are determined to kill each other.

Yes, it can be that severe.

Never leave them alone together. Learn your dogs' body language, so you can tell when they need a break from each other and separate them. Neutering one or both won't keep the aggression from developing or stop it once it has started.

We do have some threads here about Littermate Syndrome and Same Sex Aggression--they might be a good place to start. Take a look at the SSA thread in particular, because it is breed specific--which you may not find in other places. There is a wide range in dog breeds in terms of how they get along with other dogs.


 

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Same vet is willing to make a correction. What do you guys think about that?
I guess it depends on how much the look bothers you. I, personally, wouldn't put him through another procedure. I would focus on the crop of puppy 2 and making sure that gets done how you would like it. And I'd work on the game plan for if the 2 pups have issues together down the road. I've lived the "crate and rotate" life, and it is not fun. My girls were best of friends for 3 years... until they weren't. It was nasty and terrifying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think you pretty much got what you asked for from your cropper. That's what I would call a medium crop. And like KristenC there is more bell than I want left--but I'm always looking for a long "show " crop and typically those would have less bell but your cropper did "stitch the bottom together. What the cropper does is take a wedge section out of the base of the ear and suture edges of that together and trim the upper part of the ear (the pinna--or ear leather) so the it meets the place where the wedge section was removed.

It leaves you with a crop designed to show off the Doberman head so the bell does not stick out but there is a smooth line from the muzzle to the ear.

It's not a bad crop--you do need to keep posting --you could do a lot worse. So unless you know of a cropper who does Doberman show crops you are probably safe having the other puppy cropped there too.

I sure don't envy you--trying to raise two puppies at the same time?--Dobermans? Good luck with that--I try to space my puppies out so that the older one is somewhere between two and three years--let's the younger puppy learn how to behave from a dog who has already been through the process.

Good luck

dobebug
Thank you for your reply. I keep learning from you guys. Same vet offered to make the correction. What do you think?
I always wanted to have a dog, but since I’m aware of all the responsibility involved, it took me about 5 years to finally get one. My option was always a Doberman because of their personality and appearance. I did a lot of research before and after surgery. I ended up taking him to the place with better reviews, taking in count years of experience.
I know it’s just appearance but I fell in love with the breed standards. After all we went through with the first surgery, I convinced myself that it was worth it, I guess it was an excuse to justify my actions.
I don’t like the results, I don’t like his ears
I’m sorry for what about to say, but I do see companionship, complicity, unconditionally love and counting. I still don’t see a Doberman Pinscher when I look at my dog
 

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Huh? You don't see a Doberman Pinscher? What do you see?

He doesn't have ears exactly as you envisioned them? OK--back to the drawing board. Your cropper offered to do a crop revision? And exactly what and how were they going to change the look of the the crop?

Can that be done--yes, it can--I know several dogs (not mine but belonging to friends) who had recrops for one reason or another. In the case of your puppy--were you intending to show him in conformation? If not--I probably wouldn't have a recrop done. As KristenC suggested--focus on the crop of the younger puppy and make sure the vet knows exactly what you want and does that in the first place.

As for your first puppy--finish posting his ears so that they stand well (he's not done yet--I'd say another 6 to 8 weeks (at least a couple weeks past the end of teething) before you stop.

And my opinion about two puppies of similar ages--sounds like you have a dog and a bitch so same sex aggression becomes far less an issue than littermate syndrome. I think the most important thing to know about littermate syndrome is that you often end up with dogs who are far more bonded to the other dog than to you. That's why I don't add another dog to what has been occasionally a whole herd of dogs until the next oldest is between 2 and 3 years older than the puppy.

But good luck with whatever you decide.

dobebug
 

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One of each? That's a relief. Now you just have littermates (two young pups at the same time--they don't have to actually be siblings) to deal with.

The trick is to do a lot of things separately with each pup. Sleep separately; eat separately; train separately; play separately. You want each to bond more with you than with the other, and the individual time spent with you helps ensure that they will develop their own individual personalities fully rather than as a result of their interactions with each other (when one becomes boss and the other used to caving in all the time--hence timid--and where both depend on each other to the point of separation anxiety when they are apart.)

It is obviously a lot of work--at least twice as much as usual. And one dobe puppy can be a heck of a lot of work.

Your pup is 5 months old? What you are seeing is about like looking at a 13 year old boy and predicting what he will look like when he is grown. He's still got some growing to do. I imagine like all of us, once we see what WE think is a flaw (and we may not even be right about that "flaw") that is what we zero in on, every time. Give him some growing time; work on developing who he really is instead of trying to make him fit into an image in your mind. Who wants a cookie-cutter dog anyway?

And be ready--a teenager is just around the corner. They get ornery; they hear what you say selectively (Sit? Come? What do those words mean?) and you think they will never grow out of that. But they do. Hang in there.

Keep us up to date--and make SURE you post lots of pictures!
 

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Big Lil pup
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Hi Bc... I am going to be blunt.

I would never put my dog through a second crop unless necessary. (And I have when it was, but it was a very minor procedure.) Dogs do not understand human vanity. You will be causing him pain and discomfort for nothing other than a modest cosmetic change in order to satisfy your aesthetic preferences.

I am a fan of cropped ears on Dobermans. But, in my opinion and experience, this would go beyond that. This is not like repainting a room because you made a color choice that's not quite right. I really hope that you do not proceed with a re-crop. Your dog looks 100% Doberman and his ears are just fine.

Your big problem ( Littermate Syndrome) that needs addressing, and has been mentioned by several people. makes your desire for ears that are exactly what you want, pale by comparison.

My apologies to be so abrupt, it is not my norm. But I very recently and very suddenly lost my boy due to an out of the blue medical emergency, and I cannot fathom obsessing over something as minor an ear crop that one does not find absolutely perfect.

John L
Portland OR
 

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I’m sorry for what about to say, but I do see companionship, complicity, unconditionally love and counting. I still don’t see a Doberman Pinscher when I look at my dog
Well that makes me sad for your dog.
I have had Dobermans of all shapes, sizes, and ear styles. While I prefer a nicely cropped Doberman, all of my Dobermans had all of the characteristics I love about this breed. That is what makes them a Doberman. I am sorry, but I think you need to try and move past the vanity of it all and love your pups for exactly who they are.
 

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Big Lil pup
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And my opinion about two puppies of similar ages--sounds like you have a dog and a bitch so same sex aggression becomes far less an issue than littermate syndrome. I think the most important thing to know about littermate syndrome is that you often end up with dogs who are far more bonded to the other dog than to you. That's why I don't add another dog to what has been occasionally a whole herd of dogs until the next oldest is between 2 and 3 years older than the puppy.

But good luck with whatever you decide.

dobebug
Bug, unless I am totally mistake, both of the OP's puppies are male.

Both you and I have maintained multiple male households with Dobermans and I am pretty sure that we can agree that it is not something that a person should undertake unless they:
-Have first hand knowledge of living with 2 males, when at least one is a Dobe
-Have done much research and have a fundamental understanding of the seriousness of SSA
-Concertedly undertake the effort to learn how to read their dog's signals, and become very adept at immediately understanding their dogs stay of mind, comfort level and likely responses to his immediate environment.

And finally... Be willing to accept all responsibilities to ensure the safety, health and well being of all family members, canine and human, should things go all to hell. I may entertain the idea of a 2 male situation again. I was having some hope for McCoy and Popeye entering into a safe and reasonable relationship. But I probably won't. And, in any rate, if I did, I would be going into it with my eyes wide open. Not only knowing the possibility, but also being willing to undertake the big, scary changes necessary should SSA appear in my life once again.

Rant over.

John L
Portland OR

Edit to say: Anyone who has read my previous comments on Same Sex Aggression. probably knows that this topic is something that I take very seriously, and will never let go of, when I see a new member putting themselves, their family members and their dogs in potentential harms way, due lack of insight and/or information
JL
 

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Yes, the OP's earlier post said there is a second dog and they are deciding where to take "him".
 
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