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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

Dobester Rondo, 10 years is dragging his back paws and sometimes falling forward.
Current regime:
Rymadyl - currently off of this 150mg
Tumeric 800 Mg with black pepper extract
Cosequin - Joint Health support
CBD Oil, the grey area about 50mg a day

Please let me know what works for you or and share some advise or experiences.
This started in January and I was doing the Rymiadl but don't want to do damage to organs, the vet is monitoring his blood work.
I'm thinking of adding fish oil to the regime but am still unsure of the dose and to much meds.
This morning walk was pretty bad, I've purchased a Ginger lead to take with me to help when we have to turn around and head back.
All posts appreciated, I'm feeling that I'm loosing this battle....FRUSTRATED. Of coarse Rondo doesn't seem to be so bothered, maybe no pain, hopefully
Victa
 

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Hi John,

This was first noticed in December by the Vet before we traveled back to the USA, she noticed his nails being short but I hadn't seen any symptoms until March or so. She said it was Arthritis.
My first Dobe had the issue where his vertebrae were pushing on his spinal cord and he had to sit or lay down until he could get back up.
This problem may be compounded by the fact he likes to pull or keep the leash tight in walk along mode.
My current vet was who got us on the Turmeric which showed no results so I went to the Rimadyl, he gets a blood test every 60 days to check liver function, I looked into the CBD oil to replace the Rimadyl, a vet at my cats office asked if I'm using fish oil, glucosamine and other therapies.
My current vet says to just get him out and walk him.

Thanks for chiming in.
Vic
 

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First of all, I am not a vet.

There are lots of spinal problems that can cause rear foot dragging--some with a sudden onset and treatable, but other chronic conditions not so much--these are progressive and treatment is aimed at keeping pain under control and slowing down the deterioration process.

I had one dog start to drag his back feet as he approached 10-11 years old who progressively got worse (by age 13, he basically couldn’t get up on his own and was wobbly once he was on his feet), and now Kip, who is almost 12 has the same slowly progressive symptoms. I understand that in some cases the spinal cord can simply start to degenerate with age. Neural conductivity goes down and the nerve signal between brain and legs is not as good; the dog loses the sense of where his feet are, or what his back legs are doing, and slowly moves toward read end weakness or even paralysis.

Mild exercise can help, but you do have to careful not to overdo it. And this kind of age-related degeneration is a progressive thing. I don’t think things like supplements, chiropractic, medicines, etc, will actually CURE the problem, but they will slow the process down.

I haven’t really seen obvious signs of pain in Kip, but he is on a low dose steroid for other problems. Of course, steroids can have both short term and long term side effects, but in his case, I think they have helped keep the pain from his back down and helped him feel better. And at his age, with other health conditions (cancer, IBD, heart, allergies) I’m really more concerned with pain relief than long term organ damage. So far his blood chemistries and kidney function have been normal.

Gabapentin is another drug that we have added recently that helps with nerve and back pain.

All in all, with those two dogs, I have seen a slowly degenerating condition, without obvious acute pain, but a slow loss of back leg strength and foot dragging. I let my first dog go too far in terms of his dignity and quality of life--I’m watching Kip, and given his other problems, wondering how long to go with him.

Old age sucks.
 

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My Aesop, 7 yo has mild wobblers along with bilaterial cruciate issues and hip dysplasia. In addition to medications and supplements he goes to see a rehab vet every other week for cold laser, hydrotherapy, and physical therapy exercises. Getting an exercise program tailored to his needs and checking in regularly has helped keep him strong and comfortable! If there is such a facility near you, I would look into an evaluation for Rondo, it was much more reasonable than I thought it was going to be!

Best of luck with your boy. Age is such a thief.
 

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Hello, that's a good starting regimen. I'd replace the turmeric with a similar dosage of curcumin (it's a class of molecule in turmeric that does most the good things). Ginger will help, and fish/krill oil will help. Glucosamine+MSM+chondroiton+collagen might also get some small repairs going. Good luck and hopefully the next few years are pain free.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Everyone,

Thank you for the helpful information.
I will make some changes in his medicine or glucosamine, fish oil and curcumins regime. I have Gabapentin/Neurontin for pain but have not had to use it much at all. I'm still keeping the Rimadyl in reserve. I'm using the CBD oil instead of the Rimadyl.
The really good news is I don't think he is in any pain, I realize he will go until he wants to stop so I regulate his walk times and am not letting him drag me. Usually 45 minutes and the left starts a little drag, we are on gravel here and the boots protect him (nails) well, I use the bark brite as there longer and gravel doesn't get in, I tried the tuff dog boots but had to return them as they're too short, we miss the grass parks of California.
It's all about his quality of life and it's still stellar, I'm more affected (worried) than he is we just want him comfortable, he's always happy and in charge of the humans ...>:) no so impressed.
Cheers, Victor
 

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Victorj, I would speak to your vet some more about the use of gabapentin. IMO, dragging paws is a symptom of discomfort and/or pain that could potentially be addressed through the use of a medication like this. Gabapentin is not made to be used sporadically, like you would use an anti-inflammatory to treat your own discomfort, but instead to be taken regularly, and if discontinued, done with a gradual decrease in dose. My own dog takes this medication 3x a day, every day, to help manage his discomfort.

I also wanted to put out some more of the research and safety information about turmeric/curcumin:

A review from a medicinal chemistry perspective of the use of curcumin, published here states the following (emphasis mine).
"Curcumin is a constituent (up to ∼5%) of the traditional medicine known as turmeric. Interest in the therapeutic use of turmeric and the relative ease of isolation of curcuminoids has led to their extensive investigation. Curcumin has recently been classified as both a PAINS (pan-assay interference compounds) and an IMPS (invalid metabolic panaceas) candidate. The likely false activity of curcumin in vitro and in vivo has resulted in >120 clinical trials of curcuminoids against several diseases. No double-blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial of curcumin has been successful. This manuscript reviews the essential medicinal chemistry of curcumin and provides evidence that curcumin is an unstable, reactive, nonbioavailable compound and, therefore, a highly improbable lead. On the basis of this in-depth evaluation, potential new directions for research on curcuminoids are discussed."

Additionally, imported turmeric has been found to be contaminated with unsafe levels of lead on multiple occasions, from multiple suppliers. Given this information about the potential safety risks, the mixed at best support for its use, and the amount suggested to be fed by supporters of the golden paste formulation, I think it is worth taking a long, hard, look at the use of of this chemical in ourselves and our dogs.

FDA Recall from 2016

Import alert for turmeric
 

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^^^^ I agree with the above (Tobe).

Gabapentin is a very useful neural pain reliever. However, it is also fairly psychoactive. We had a boy that was born with a CVI (non-wobblers) issue, so I am quite familiar with pain killers, both muscular and neural. ( As well as anti-inflammatories) That being said, Gabapentin is frequently used in combination with Tramadol. This combo provides relief, but is difficult for some dogs as the two drugs can actually act synergistically and make the dog act strangely.

Just a thought.

BTW, I have personally had joint issues for years. In fact, I had a total hip replacement in February and am scheduled for a knee replacement in August. I tried Turmeric for quite a while, to absolutely no avail. I also read report of purity issues and discontinued use. For what it is worth, I also never had any success with glucosamine and chondroitin.

Our boy who was born with CVI issues responded best to moderate doses of Prednisone. He has been on it (or some form of it) for his entire life. As he approaches his senior years, he is for the most part, symptom free. Still walks a bit weird, but he swims like a fish!

Best to you and Rondo.

Keep us informed

John
Portland OR
 

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PLEASE be in communication with your vet about what drugs you are using and the proper usage - some drugs cannot be used sporadically (i.e. gabapentin), and some supplements can interact with prescriptions. You really shouldn't begin (or end) any drugs OR over the counter supplements without consulting your veterinarian.

I would really recommend discussing things like Wobbler's Disease with your vet.

Hope you can get some improvement with Rondo.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Hello and again thank you,

I'm seeing a vet for the arthritis or paw dragging. The vets main diagnosis for Rondo was the Tumeric Supreme extra strength with black pepper EXTRACT, he did renew the Rimadyl and upped it to 150 mg daily with blood work done monthly.
I know he does prescribe Gabapentin but has not for Rondo yet (other dog owners have told me their regime and use the same vet), the cosequim is dog glucosamine, I need to discuss this at our next visit and also get his thoughts on the CBD oil (I replaced the Rimadyl with the CBD on my own). I haven't started fish oil as I would like to discuss this with him first, this along with some of the information I've seen (CURCUMA)on this thread.
Thanks all, I appreciate the information being offered, knowing what questions to ask the vet kinda drags information out of them, whether it applies to Rondo or not, he has much more knowledge then I do about the meds and I have knowledge of how Rondo is doing and when. I don't see Rondo in a lot or any pain, he does fall forward on his back paws at times but doesn't seem to be in pain at all. When he does fall forward I support his stomach and it stops so I can get him home where after his snack -Nap time, and he seems to rest up and be walking around no problem. I do also do think if his boots slide the least bit off it causes more of a likelihood he will fold forward on his knees, I keep an eye on this.
 

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Another symptom of loss of sensation in the back feet--ie poor proprioception (maybe this is what you mean by “falling forward?):

When they are standing, you can place their back paw down on the floor upside down with top of the foot on the floor, and they won’t correct it to pads down again.

Kip also stretches with his back down and his back legs behind him--his first step to get back to standing up, he steps on the top side on his foot and then places his feet correctly after that.

I’ve seen him walk on the top of a back foot before; he doesn’t seem to notice and the next step is done correctly back to his pads again.

Internet example


From Hind Leg Weakness ? Painful or Numb? | Dr. Judy Morgan DVM
 

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Wobblers is what is manifested, because of the cartilage and the bone deviations cause by vWD bleeding in the joints and vertibrae destroying them over time. There can be other causes too, however vWD has been found in 70% of 15,000 dobermans tested in a study of vWD. The ratio is more than twice as high as the next worse affected breed. Although type I is the most prevalent in Dobermans, on the surface it seemed just to be asymtomatic in the past, it's not.VWD is more serious than Scientists previously recognized until DNA mechanisms affecting the VW Factor were discovered and studied to be more clearly undestood. It is not that your dog might bleed a minute or more longer than the next breed, it is that the bleeding or clump clotting is going on inside our dogs, where we can't see it, causing wobblers, CMD, hypothyroidism, hind leg paralysis and a slue of other horrific manefestations of vWD pathologies. It's time to become aware, that vWD is the culpret severely shortening our dogs lives instead of accepting you lost your dobie at 6 to 9 years of age, because they just don't live long. As Doberman owners, we should all try to understand vWD and how it can and does manefest and breed to eraticate. I think, I'll start a new thread tomorrow and back these statements up with explanation of how VWD does it to our dogs, pathologically through type and mechanism.
 

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Also, if you test for vWD as to type, fish oil and some of the drugs suggested are contraindicated according to type I,II, or III processes. Once we allow vWD to corrupt our dog's health to the point of CMD, joint disease, etc, mostly all we have left is treating the pain and not removing the cause. Now genetic science can give us hope on treatment and minimally how to lower incidence of vWD to 15%, and eliminate the prevalence of these other manefestations in our dogs! I would dearly love for my dobes to live to 12 or 15 without years of pain.
 

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Wobblers is what is manifested, because of the cartilage and the bone deviations cause by vWD bleeding in the joints and vertibrae destroying them over time. VWD is more serious than Scientists previously recognized until DNA mechanisms affecting the VW Factor were discovered and studied to be more clearly undestood.
Can you provide literature references supporting this type of joint damage from Von Willebrands type bleeds and not hemophilia? VWD is a defect in primary hemostasis, which means it causes multiple small bleeds, oozing, delayed healing, and prolonged bleeding during surgery because the platelets do not properly stick together.

The genetics of vWD are very well characterized, and have been for quite some time. The disease is homozygous recessive, and the testing technology does now match our understanding.

It is not that your dog might bleed a minute or more longer than the next breed, it is that the bleeding or clump clotting is going on inside our dogs, where we can't see it, causing wobblers, CMD, hypothyroidism, hind leg paralysis and a slue of other horrific manefestations of vWD pathologies. It's time to become aware, that vWD is the culpret severely shortening our dogs lives instead of accepting you lost your dobie at 6 to 9 years of age, because they just don't live long. As Doberman owners, we should all try to understand vWD and how it can and does manefest and breed to eraticate. I think, I'll start a new thread tomorrow and back these statements up with explanation of how VWD does it to our dogs, pathologically through type and mechanism.
If you search in the forums, there have been quite lengthy discussions about the repercussions of simply breeding to eradicate vWD. Because the gene is so prevalent in the Doberman population, if you limit the breeding pool to only clear dogs, there will be unintended consequences that will magnify the presence of other undesirable traits (disease status) which are polygenetic and/or unable to be tested for. I will leave that discussion to the experts in pedigree analysis

Also, if you test for vWD as to type, fish oil and some of the drugs suggested are contraindicated according to type I,II, or III processes. Once we allow vWD to corrupt our dog's health to the point of CMD, joint disease, etc, mostly all we have left is treating the pain and not removing the cause. Now genetic science can give us hope on treatment and minimally how to lower incidence of vWD to 15%, and eliminate the prevalence of these other manefestations in our dogs! I would dearly love for my dobes to live to 12 or 15 without years of pain.
Again, I would love to read the published literature linking Type 1 von Willebrands Disease to Congenital Muscular Dystrophy.
 

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Can you provide literature references supporting this type of joint damage from Von Willebrands type bleeds and not hemophilia? VWD is a defect in primary hemostasis, which means it causes multiple small bleeds, oozing, delayed healing, and prolonged bleeding during surgery because the platelets do not properly stick together.

The genetics of vWD are very well characterized, and have been for quite some time. The disease is homozygous recessive, and the testing technology does now match our understanding.



If you search in the forums, there have been quite lengthy discussions about the repercussions of simply breeding to eradicate vWD. Because the gene is so prevalent in the Doberman population, if you limit the breeding pool to only clear dogs, there will be unintended consequences that will magnify the presence of other undesirable traits (disease status) which are polygenetic and/or unable to be tested for. I will leave that discussion to the experts in pedigree analysis



Again, I would love to read the published literature linking Type 1 von Willebrands Disease to Congenital Muscular Dystrophy.
CMD ...Well stupid me, I don't use acronyms, I would like to see CMD defined easily through genetic pre-cursers, too. Sorry for my error using the wrong acronym, I have been truly moronic. I'm so embarassed! I will go back and type in it's place "Cardiomyopathy Disease", "enlarged hearts", " Sudden Death Syndrome explained by stroke", "Hypertention", "Heart diseases" "Pulmonary edema" etc. I am hanging my head in shame! Thanks for setting me straight! What was it 1997 when the first gene identification breakthrough was made in vWD? Then, they identified the mutations, then the pathology of each of the mutations.Meanwhile , counting vW factor was still the prevalent test for vWD for a few more years. This brings us up to maybe 2008 when breeders still relied on faulty tests results thinking their dogs were recessive for vWD and 70 % of our breed is not. Then, by relying on tests proven to be wrong with over 50% error- as negative for a true positive result- breeders have elected not to test because they believe they are responsibly producing carriers or recessive trait in their puppies. Then again, there are are many who blow off vWD as insignificant. I'm saying the findings are significant. I will happy to provide citation as to study and test results, and reference that vW factor disease causes congestive heart disease, ( not all congestive heart disease) and for the disease relationships scientists are connecting to the different type of gene mutations causing vWD (let you know which scientists, or scientific journal). I'm still hanging my head for my CMD misnomer.
 

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Can you provide literature references supporting this type of joint damage from Von Willebrands type bleeds and not hemophilia? VWD is a defect in primary hemostasis, which means it causes multiple small bleeds, oozing, delayed healing, and prolonged bleeding during surgery because the platelets do not properly stick together.

The genetics of vWD are very well characterized, and have been for quite some time. The disease is homozygous recessive, and the testing technology does now match our understanding.



If you search in the forums, there have been quite lengthy discussions about the repercussions of simply breeding to eradicate vWD. Because the gene is so prevalent in the Doberman population, if you limit the breeding pool to only clear dogs, there will be unintended consequences that will magnify the presence of other undesirable traits (disease status) which are polygenetic and/or unable to be tested for. I will leave that discussion to the experts in pedigree analysis



Again, I would love to read the published literature linking Type 1 von Willebrands Disease to Congenital Muscular Dystrophy.
Eradication is impossible, I believe. I think breeding for the reduction of incidence should be primary in selective breeding. I firmly believe if we breed our dominants and carriers to recessives we will reduce our percentages of incidence immediately.

Even if someone can't resist a carrier/carrier breeding, it is at least likely to reduce the incident of dominant trait in the pups, even though the breeding has a potential for producing all dominant trait puppies, it is a beginning.
I would hope enough folk would test, not breed positive to a positive or to carrier, and folks were knowledgible and caring enough not buy those pups , or excuse them for being irresponsible just so they can breed to one of their dog's in the future.

I, also, would resent being mislead by a shady breeder. And I would consider him shady, if he is not forthcoming. If all I could get out of a breeder if I asked for test results is him/her being insulted by it and defensive to the point he/she shout, "I test all my dogs and all my dogs are healthy!", I would take it in stride and politely persist for results, in another conversation.up. If my persistence is followed by being given no direct answer to my request, and I hear "let me tell you about Von Willebrands, it's all a ruse for vets to make money...you see they need a donor dog and they get paid for having it there, and extra labs and precautions for nothing when it's not a real disease! You have to pay for all of this built up, phoniness and equipment, when it's nothing! VWD- I've never had a problem with it", I would hope I would run the other way. It is too easy though, for many folk to let the breeder control them by their own trust and politeness of a breeder with statis, so buyer beware.

Von Willibrand Disease is something. My uncle had it and I had 2 pups diagnosed with it before DNA testing, that suffered complications and spontaneous bleeding. And just when I thought one had outgrown it at five I lost him to internal bruising and bleeding persisting for 8 months.
Our breed is so wonderful, they deserve a few extra years of life. Please test.

To answer your question about hemophilia:

Type III is homozygous for the defective gene. The "stuff" that causes the platelets to stick together is called Von Willebrand FACTOR . VWD type III is characterized by complete absence of production of vWF. UH OH! The total absence of vWF leads to extremely low level or absence of factor VIII.

Type III is equivalent to severe hemophilia A with its clinical manifestations of life-threatening external and internal hemorrhages.

Here's the inheritance pattern of vWD type III: It is autosomal recessive.
The inheritance pattern of hemophilia A is X-linked recessive.

If a breeder tells you ," In the test results, the higher the vWD number is ( I,II, or III) the less problem there is, his is a 4." Get out of there quick!

Oh, and there is a type IV,... really. It is acquired vWD. Which means your dog is very sick with cancer or some other horrible disease bad enough to alter VWF.
 

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CMD ...Well stupid me, I don't use acronyms, I would like to see CMD defined easily through genetic pre-cursers, too. Sorry for my error using the wrong acronym, I have been truly moronic. I'm so embarassed! I will go back and type in it's place "Cardiomyopathy Disease", "enlarged hearts", " Sudden Death Syndrome explained by stroke", "Hypertention", "Heart diseases" "Pulmonary edema" etc. I am hanging my head in shame! Thanks for setting me straight! What was it 1997 when the first gene identification breakthrough was made in vWD? Then, they identified the mutations, then the pathology of each of the mutations.Meanwhile , counting vW factor was still the prevalent test for vWD for a few more years. This brings us up to maybe 2008 when breeders still relied on faulty tests results thinking their dogs were recessive for vWD and 70 % of our breed is not. Then, by relying on tests proven to be wrong with over 50% error- as negative for a true positive result- breeders have elected not to test because they believe they are responsibly producing carriers or recessive trait in their puppies. Then again, there are are many who blow off vWD as insignificant. I'm saying the findings are significant. I will happy to provide citation as to study and test results, and reference that vW factor disease causes congestive heart disease, ( not all congestive heart disease) and for the disease relationships scientists are connecting to the different type of gene mutations causing vWD (let you know which scientists, or scientific journal). I'm still hanging my head for my CMD misnomer.
I'm having a hard time understanding your posts (as are many others). I believe you are actually attempting to refer to Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) here, but it's hard to tell. You are also going off on a rant about von Willebrand's disease, which you are also currently discussing in a different thread (http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/291618-need-vwd-help-assistance.html).

Given that you've derailed the OP's thread, I'm going to go ahead and close this. Please, OP, keep us updated on what you find out with your dog. I hope you are able to get some more help with further investigation. Please feel free to start another thread with an update.
 
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