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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This has happened twice in about 10 days.

4 wild coyotes run quite near to our fence when Bella and Loki are out.
They make sure to show themselves and pause on the 30 yards away skyline.
Dogs get quite excited. I may or may not be able to get them in as they are in hyper -protective - aggressive mode.
Bella bristling, snarling etc attacks Loki.... more than once in a 1 minute time period:(!!!

This evening I got Bella in right after this episode and reprimanded her, yelling and put her in closed room for time out, she was still excited. 10 minutes later she was extremely conciliatory to me and ready to be nice to Loki.

This is an uncontrollable thing, and I'm not sure how to handle it reasonably, and need advice. If she hurts him I will be super pissed! IMG_0454.JPG
 

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No advice. Sorry
It's odd how different dogs respond to different critters. McCoy will walk within 3 feet of a crow on the ground and pay absolutely no attention to it. And the female coyote who walks through our front hill all the time leaves a marking scent that fascinates him. But when he comes across her in real life, he just watches her walk away like: "Meh... There's that little dog that doesn't bark at me". LOL.

On the other hand, if he see a squirrel in our back yard through our french doors, with all the commotion he makes you would think that he was being tortured to death. Go figure.

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
 

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You probably already know this term, but what you are looking at is redirected aggression--Bella is alarmed and agitated by the coyotes, but she can't get to them. So she takes it out on Loki.

Most things I've seen about this kind of aggression say to try to prevent the dog from getting aroused in the first place. Can you block their view of the ridgeline?

I don't know if it is possible for you to see whether the coyotes are around before you let the dogs out? Maybe try just letting one out at a time if you think the coyotes are near. Your dogs will still hoot and holler, of course, but Bella won't be able to get to Loki.

Sorry I can't think of any good answers for you. Maybe do a little research on Fence Fighting--some of the training to prevent or modify that could be applicable here. Maybe a few of their solutions would be workable for you.
 

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We have the same deal here princess with coyotes and the open ditch behind our house , When our team was Ali and Kadin , Ali would snap at Kadin , here anyway , I did not feel it was redirected aggression as it was , Hey there buddy - I'm in charge here , When she snapped at him , it was over and he let her take the lead , he was back up .

Like you , I can sometimes call them off , other times is like they are locked in and have no idea who I am , Now this is just me talking out loud here , But I feel that this problem is my fault - lack of good training , I should be able to call them off every time , regardless - period .

I need to work on that part of training , either a on-line class or from a trainer .

I'm not saying your dogs are not trained well ! I'm talking about mine .

When you figure this out , you can train me - lol

Good luck Princess !
 

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As Mel said, this is redirected aggression. Reprimanding her after the fact isn't going to change anything. When you are using training with "corrections," your timing has to be perfect - EXACTLY as the behavior is happening, not after. And unless your correction is big enough to suppress the behavior, it won't stop it in the future. Given how aroused she is by the presence of coyotes, I don't think you can give a punishment (correction) big enough that is going to stop the behavior in the future (and frankly, I wouldn't personally want to do so). So...you have to look to other options.

In this type of scenario, it's really tricky...are you able to see if they are present before you let dogs out? If not, you have to figure out a management strategy. What I would personally do in your shoes would be to train her to happily wear a basket muzzle. I'd make sure she's wearing it before letting them out. It seems like a more reasonable idea than trying to let them out separately; I know that can be difficult. A basket muzzle will prevent her from redirecting onto him, and will keep him safe.

If there's a way to discourage the coyotes from being near your fence, I'd most certainly take action there. I just don't have information on that.
 

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I’d agree with Melbrod - redirected aggression is a tough one to deal with. Blocking the view from them, or putting them out separately would be my recommendation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thank you for all of your advice and ideas. I agree it is redirected aggression and that their recall is not good enough. It is impossible to foresee when the coyoes will be close, and I won't be reprimanding her again unless it is on the spot, however that could be dangerous to me. Last nights reprimand, it was within a minute, but I agree, not soon enough.

Eventually our hummingbird bush or other plantings may block the view. I should be grateful neither of our dogs are fence jumpers! I will try to only let one out at a time in the evening, but I'm sure they will be thinking wtf? especially Loki, he loves Bellas lead in all the yard activities!
 

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Maybe once one has been out for a little, you'll be able to judge if the coyotes are going to show up? Then if they're not there, you can put the other one out too. Or maybe put Bella out first so she can get most of her tough gal act out of the way before Loki joins in the fun.

Maybe....
 

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Bitch's rule -- dogs drool .

btw --- Quoted from Aunt Bug : ))
Just for the record that came from a t- chirt that someone gave me many years ago--the front had a head study of a pretty Dobe bitch with her ears up above the print "Bitches rule" and on the back it had a handsome Dobe male with his ears at half mast and printed below it said "Dogs drool..."

I loved that shirt--never could find another...

dobebug
 

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I nice 223 will take care of coyotes real well : )))))))
Or....
A .17 hornet V-Max 20 grain. The perfect light weight varmint load. (IMO. LOL)

Based on the 22 Hornet cartridge case, the 17 Hornet can drive a 20-grain V-MAX bullet at 3,650 fps. At this velocity, the 17 Hornet can match the trajectory of a 55-grain .223 Remington load, but with much less noise and recoil. Look at the chart below. You can see that the 17 Hornet’s trajectory (blue-gray line) is almost an identical match for the larger .223 Rem (red line) all the way out to 400 yards or so.

17 Hornet ballistics Varminter.com





John L. (STJ!)
PDX
 

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Or....
A .17 hornet V-Max 20 grain. The perfect light weight varmint load. (IMO. LOL)

Based on the 22 Hornet cartridge case, the 17 Hornet can drive a 20-grain V-MAX bullet at 3,650 fps. At this velocity, the 17 Hornet can match the trajectory of a 55-grain .223 Remington load, but with much less noise and recoil.
Still going to be loud due to the velocity.

With that said -

If noise is no concern (and if barrel life measured in the tens of rounds is cool):



Not a joke round BTW. They almost attained 5000fps with it before they stopped testing. Heck, Even if you missed the target with the Eargesplitten Loudenboomer (not a joke name either), the sonic boom made as the round goes by is going to destroy the target.
 

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I don't think its legal to kill them. Bunnies, maybe, squirrels maybe.
Not sure if you (or your dogs) could handle it but a loudspeaker set up outside (possibly rigged to play when motion sensors are triggered???) blasting Barry Manilow 'should' drive the yotes well away from your property.

Obviously there is a small chance you could possibly encounter the one yote on the planet that DOES happen to actually like Barry Manilow music but considering how small those chances are I am thinking it would be worth the try.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Thank you all for your friendly and informative replies. Since I can't control the coyotes who arrive from around the corner wilderness, or my dogs, I gues I can only control my reaction to it. I am working on better recall, and we will see what Bella does next time.

Our neighbors elderly GSD was out of her yard and the neighbor just saved her from a 3-pack of circling, snarling coyotes. I hope he learned his lesson and will protect her much better after that incident. I don't think they would opportunize an attack on Bella and Loki together, but Miss Fighting Bee is aging and they can certainly sense it when an adversary is weakened.

Funny story, just then while writing I can hear but not see the dogs; Bella sounds like she is resource guarding something. It turns out she has been tearing apart a ziplock bag box she found on the floor....... meanwhile there is an open bag of treats left on the counter! Gotta luv'em:)
 

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Thank you all for your friendly and informative replies. Since I can't control the coyotes who arrive from around the corner wilderness, or my dogs, I gues I can only control my reaction to it. I am working on better recall, and we will see what Bella does next time.

Our neighbors elderly GSD was out of her yard and the neighbor just saved her from a 3-pack of circling, snarling coyotes. I hope he learned his lesson and will protect her much better after that incident. I don't think they would opportunize an attack on Bella and Loki together, but Miss Fighting Bee is aging and they can certainly sense it when an adversary is weakened.
It really is that bad where you are at? Serious question.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
It really is that bad where you are at? Serious question.
Yes. There is a huge nature area at our doorstep, the 7 homes up here
139366
are 300-700 yards apart, and the coyotes are running around sometimes in broad daylight. Also large raptors in case you have a small dog or cat. Our modest home is the one past the tennis court. Its very beautiful, and a wide open view, but also a forbidding environment for animals people and plants!
 

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This evening I got Bella in right after this episode and reprimanded her, yelling and put her in closed room for time out, she was still excited. 10 minutes later she was extremely conciliatory to me and ready to be nice to Loki.
given the information i think maybe the dog gets it but my initial thought was that op were late and i think dogs will often try to reconcile after any major blowout lest it's too frightened so timing is maybe off here.
your timing has to be perfect - EXACTLY as the behavior is happening, not after
this is what i am about as well, punishment can work if you stop the behavior right as it happens or if the dog knows why you are upset such as ie when you come home to find icecream all over and shopping bags ripped apart or find a pool of pee and make sure they see you smell it and looking at them.

In case you describe ideal would be to reprimand the dog as it turns on YOUR pet, i think you could try to scare him with something dogs fear like a bicycle, a vaacum cleaner or something. Intention being to communicate 'Hey buddy, you are not allowed to do this to my dog and you better be more scared of me than those wild dogs!"

This will probably work but it won't work if the dog is very cofused, what the hell do you do it turns on you? I wouldn't do it if you don't feel that the dog is predictable enough to risk it.
Most things I've seen about this kind of aggression say to try to prevent the dog from getting aroused in the first place.
This is what i want to try first. Desensitization through redirection of attention so it becomes the inclination due to frequent giving of attention.

1. I would make sure dog is starved for treats and attempt initiation basic easy work for high reward when a wild cayote appears. Give paw, come here and just please take my food really.
2. I would try to capture behavior of calming down/relaxing/resting very strongly as well. As one would praise dog whilst peeing, id treat and mark with cue settling/resting/relaxing very strongly.
I figure a dog is usually either too excited and needs to be redirected to a calming theme or he is sad and sluggish and needs to be aroused by an exciting theme. EG when my dog goes to the park it tends to pulling lest calmed down and on the way back she tends to drag behind lest she reminded of the good to come, just a reminder of good & exciting things will rouse her right up.

if one conditions strongly relax/settle, as when a dog is happy & calm after playing, or when happy resting, or when a dog settle's saying 'Settle' - Good - Settle - Yes - Feed, then one can try initiating this when coyotes get his attention.

One can also try likewise capturing her aggro to the coyotes and initial behavior that you find adequate if there is any, the thought being that you capture her warning barks and reward it to get some control, this may not work but i think the risk isn't high either, if it doesn't work as intended then it probably will be neutral or confuse the dog somewhat but in a way that makes it more openminded which is better than being stuck on autopilot in wrong behavior.

And unless your correction is big enough to suppress the behavior, it won't stop it in the future.
I think the symbolism is more important than severety of punishment and would disagree to an extent. I think one can utilize social pressure a lot in this case, in example a super severe social pressure punishment i can think of is as the dog turns on the pet, protect the pet and become obviously upset with the offender, not allow him near the group of yours and when coyotes leave and it's made safe, chase him with a broom out of the property.

It's psychologically though on a dog and i also wouldn't recommend doing lest the dog is predictable and accustomed to making up after you seemingly getting angry because what do you do if it decides screw you guys and goes to fight coyotes or something unpredictable, seems like a good way to get into a mess whereas if a dog is accustomed then it's difficult to abuse it to the point where it doesn't do what has been working. I've seen some videos of real abusive dog training and it is amazing how far dogs will allow the abuse to go and still attempt to reconcile every time as poor things have no options and are scared.

This being said i think it is strange that the dog turns on one's he is supposed to perceive as allies, i think the dog is either confused about the relationship values and doesn't perceive correctly and needs to be guided or it is crazy and can't be fixed. I would be very hestitent to risk escalating anything and would probably see about controlling the dog's exposure to this trigger foremost and work on a strong bond foundation & reliable communication because dogs need that in times of heightened danger or they don't bother paying attention knowing they can't reliable talk to you or rely on you to direct them efficiently on that account. Also the dog can't communicate much with the other dog neither and can be getting upset giving him corrections as well for some reason. In general i think beyond basic body language and verbal cues displaying basic emotion a dog can much more so communicate with a human than another dog to implement a strategy. I mean wolves do an incredible job but human dog teams would do better albeit not without a strong foundation.
 

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Yeah...redirected aggression is a tough one. My American Bulldog bitch and Male Dobe go at it all the time when something is on the fence line. No real physical harm is done, and the male tries to spin to avoid the females aggression while growling his displeasure at her while doing so, but she is a relentless one...comes with that breed. They are best buddies although the male did bite her on the head when she was a puppy for being over rambunctious when he felt it was his time with me. Punctured the skin on top of her head and neck. That was scary.

It seems males let females get away with a lot of bs and pushing around for the most part...until they don't. Weird dog rules.
 
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