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Discussion Starter #1
I think it is total BS that you cannot dock and crop in some parts of the world.

This is nothing but PATHETIC!

I have seen my dog get his ears cropped and there was nothing wrong after the operation. His ears were a little itchy due to the stitches but that is it.

I am sick and tired of these left wing animal rights idiots!

I care for animals and would never ever hurt an animal but feel I should have the right to crop an dock my dog.

This world is full of ignorance.

Sorry people but I just wanted to vent my anger!:sadcry:
 

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o.k awkward subject for which i have differing views on cropping and docking. Just to clear a few things up before i continue. This is a very american site Meaning that most/ the majority of members are american and it is the done thing in America(no offence intended) so i feel i may be standing alone on this one ..I think the dogs are just as beautifull with it done as opposed to a 'normal' dog and feel no anger towards their owners.

In the u.k it is banned to crop and dock a dog..but its docking MORE than cropping still goes on 'behind closed doors' to be honest in some ways i wish they would legalize it so that my dog didnt have to go through the suffering which he did to get a 'docked' tail like many other dogs undoubtedly do here in the u.k.. its was cut of with heavy duty scissors (like what you would use to prune a shrub without anaethesia) and he has been left with a very awkward looking stub but more importanly it causes him major discomfort due to it being to short and cant tuck under causing it to put pressure on his spine when he sits. If it was legalized and the previous owners may have more than likely taken him to get it done proffesionally.

I can understand why people who show there dogs would need to crop and dock as it is required but for normal domestic dogs i feel that it is not neccesarily needed.

Also i know that it was done originally to give the attacker less grip being it a dog or human. That was in the days when dogs were fought and it was the norm. Yes fighting still goes on but is it necessary to crop and dock a dog which is a normal 'household' dog without any risk of getting into and illegal fight where betting takes place at the owners wishes.

Stasi wrote "I am sick and tired of these left wing animal rights idiots!
"


I For one AM NOT an animal rights Idiot just for having these views .. just more curiosity.

Stasi wrote "I care for animals and would never ever hurt an animal but feel I should have the right to crop an dock my dog."

I know it does not cause the dog pain no-one in their right mind would do it if it caused sufffering (just maybe alittle uncomfortable and feeling alittle silly lol) I think alot of the activists views are ..why do it? isnt it more of the owners vanity than an actual neccesary operation ?


anyway for what its worth these are just my own thoughts on the subject :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
fact is if I were a Doberman and I could speak I would say "fix me ears!".
Sorry but dobes look crappy without cropped ears. Ofcoarse this is MY opinion.
Animal rights activists may say "why do it"......then I say "why do anything??"
I mean there is a long list of "should do`s" when it comes to animal rights and to be honest I cannot see cropping a dogs ears on that list.
Isnt cutting a males balls out cruel? I would HATE to have my balls cut out.
Nature didnt intend to for the balls to be cut out. If you dont think this is a good example then there are a million others.

I would never buy a Dobe with uncropped ears and undocked tail. I will probably get flammed for this but those are my feelings.
 

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I can see both points of view, and I also have my own opinion on the subject.

I have stated before that I will only rescue and not purchase puppies so I guess I wont have any choice in the matter. :D But I will say I would rescue an uncropped Dobe just as fast as a cropped Dobe.

Now my personal opinion is that I do like the look of the Doberman cropped and docked compared to natural. Atleast we here in the USA still have the choice and we are not forced one way or the other.

TD
 

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stasi said:
fact is if I were a Doberman and I could speak I would say "fix me ears!".
Sorry but dobes look crappy without cropped ears. Ofcoarse this is MY opinion.
Animal rights activists may say "why do it"......then I say "why do anything??"
I mean there is a long list of "should do`s" when it comes to animal rights and to be honest I cannot see cropping a dogs ears on that list.
Isnt cutting a males balls out cruel? I would HATE to have my balls cut out.
Nature didnt intend to for the balls to be cut out. If you dont think this is a good example then there are a million others.

I would never buy a Dobe with uncropped ears and undocked tail. I will probably get flammed for this but those are my feelings.
...nope you have every right to feel the way you do ..if everyone thought the same the world would be a very boring place :)

my opinion is i feel there is more neccesity to having a dobe or any male dog neutered because of the health benefits an it is neither more or less 'painfull' than cropping and docking..the difference is i would be neutering Harvey because of his health benefits and to stop any accidental breeding which may or may not occur.In my case with my dog i would not crop Harvey because its an uneccesary procedure and if he had a tail i would not have docked it..Nature does not intend a dobes ears to be altered or its tail..if it did the dog would have been born that way...

obviously like i said its a matter of peoples preferences and aslong as the procedures remain painfree etc like they currently are i will not be doing any protesting about it as it does not cause any suffering

Its is obviously something which you feel strongly about and i would be just as annoyed if they passed a law which said you HAVE to crop and dock. Like you said its an owners choice ..its my choice to leave harvey like he is and your choice to crop and dock.

I think our major difference of oppinion here is that you think they are ugly with natural ears..to be honest i love them either way.. i just love harveys flappy velvety ears lol :D

Look at my baby ..how could you say he is ugly :tongue23:

 

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You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. As is everyone else, including the "left wingers". Personally, I like the look of a cropped and docked dobe. But I don't really care if I had a dog that was done or not. I like the breed. A dobe with uncropped ears is still going to be a dobe.

But there are people that feel strongly about it one way or another. I'm looking for a dog to rescue, I'm watching the shelters for one that will fit in with my family. My husband and I talked about it, and he is ADIMANT that he does not want a uncropped dobe. I would personally will open my arms to an uncropped one as quickly as a cropped one, as I explained to him, they have less of an adoption chance, so we are doing more good.

All that in mind, cropping DOES cause pain. Short lived, yes, controlled with pain meds, yes. But pain non the less. I feel that it is still better off to have them cropped and more of a chance to be adopted if they are lost or abandoned, than uncropped.

I agree 100% with Twinkletoes, by those countries outlawing cropping and docking, they thought they were doing something good for the animal, but in reality, they condemed (probably less dogs, but many dogs none the less) dogs to PAINFUL "underground" cropping and docking procedures, rather than it being allowed and being done by qualified vets and breeders.

"fact is if I were a Doberman and I could speak I would say "fix me ears!"."
I really doubt that, if you were a dobe and had the ability to actually think and voice your opinion, I'm sure you'd ask that ANY scapel kept it's distance from you, for any reason.....:)

As for neutering, no I think massive overbreeding for money is crueler than neutering. Gassing unwanted animals is crueler. As nature didn't intend for that either.
 

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i would love to actually see a dobie in real life with a tail on ..it must help to express alot of emotions.

I love dogs wagging their tales though and feeling it slap against your legs when they are happy. Im sure it must help their balance aswell at high speeds although being without it hasnt slowed harvey up lol

heres a dobie with a tail if no-one has ever seen it before ..i never had until a while ago..maybe i have been living under a rock for along time i dunno ? :D. I like the dock aswell though ~ i have always felt they look alittle of balance with a tail ..something not quite right (?)

 

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Well, I think each to their own.. What ever is good for your dog is your right.. We all have different views when it comes to our animals and I feel as long as the animal is being taken great care of and alterations are done by a state licensed Vet then each to their own..
The problem comes in when, you get a puppy.. Now there is no way to tell if a 2 day old puppy is going to be show or not.. So if the tail is not done at that time and then a year later.. the puppy is growing into show quality it is way too late to dock.. Same with the ears.. at 9 weeks is too early to tell if the puppy is show.. So you do not have the ears done.. and then at 6 months the puppy is turning into the finest dog since Warlock.. What do you do then..
I love my Dobermans and I like the tails done at 1 to 3 days old by a VET!! I am ok with ears natural or docked.. I feel that is the owners choice.. I have 3 dobermans with docked and one with natural and I think they all are beautiful.. I just wish people would be more concerned about the poor animals :sadcry: that are being beaten, starved, abandoned, being made to fight each other or treated cruelly in other ways than someone who wants to dock or crop the animal.. well, just my 2 cents..
 

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I think the left wing comment is uncalled for. I am a member of the left wing and I have cropped and docked dobe. It would be like me saying that all right wingers are members of the KKK, the radical right group.

Sorry, not trying to turn the conversation on politics, but I just had to speak my mind.
 

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Twinkletoes said:
i would love to actually see a dobie in real life with a tail on ..it must help to express alot of emotions.

I love dogs wagging their tales though and feeling it slap against your legs when they are happy. Im sure it must help their balance aswell at high speeds although being without it hasnt slowed harvey up lol

heres a dobie with a tail if no-one has ever seen it before ..i never had until a while ago..maybe i have been living under a rock for along time i dunno ? :D. I like the dock aswell though ~ i have always felt they look alittle of balance with a tail ..something not quite right (?)
:) I used to have a lab/dane mix, HOLY COW that tail was a weapon!! I tell you, we didn't keep ANYTHING on our end tables! If we did, he cleared it off for us! And It wasn't unusual to find bruises on our legs!

Now this can happen to any dog with a tail, but four years ago my son slammed the door on Scrappy's tail, breaking in half pretty much. It was an accident, he was taking her for a walk and didn't realize she wasn't through the door yet... Fortunetely it healed okay, as her tail is a curled tail anyway, just has a "sharp bend" in it now. And he wonders why she doesn't really like him.....:)
 

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My question on this subject is....

Why can't governments allow people to make up their own minds. Do what they feel is right. Leave the moral/ethical questions to us.
 

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Dobedad said:
My question on this subject is....

Why can't governments allow people to make up their own minds. Do what they feel is right. Leave the moral/ethical questions to us.
Governments are run by people who want to stay in power so when a group of their citizens get on a high horse and wants something stopped no matter how stupid or harmless it might be they listen and act for their own benifit. I think this does cause pain to the animals but so does circumsision(sp) and no one asks the baby if they want it done. To me this is a question only the owners should have any say in.

Curious: Do you take this same stand on gays getting married and abortions?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Sorry, not trying to turn the conversation on politics, but I just had to speak my mind.
as you left wingers always DO!:tongue23: (just kidding....well kind of:jonkel: )

ok....so many good posts.....firstly twinkletoes, your dobe looks GREAT! looks similar to mine apart from mine is a red with cropped ears. He has a great head on him....imagine what he would look like with nicely cropped ears!

just wish people would be more concerned about the poor animals that are being beaten, starved, abandoned, being made to fight each other or treated cruelly in other ways than someone who wants to dock or crop the animal.. well, just my 2 cents..
This is my point. Thank you!

"fact is if I were a Doberman and I could speak I would say "fix me ears!"."
I really doubt that, if you were a dobe and had the ability to actually think and voice your opinion, I'm sure you'd ask that ANY scapel kept it's distance from you, for any reason.....

no seriously I would! :)
 

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First off welcome to the forum :)
I have to agree that the "left-wing" comment is uncalled for (incidently you made it political with that comment). I doubt you'd find a member here that is more involved with the RIGHT wing than me and I have an uncropped dog. Personally I think it's ridiculous to crop and dock for no reason other than aesthetics. I would literally dance a jig if a uncropped or undocked ever earned a CH through AKC :)
And I doubt that Harvey would look any better with his ears cropped than he does right now :)
There is a HUGE difference between a purely cosmetic surgery and one that will benefit the health and welfare of the dog (like spaying and neutering). Spaying and neutering guards against cancer, behavior problems and the overwhelming stray population. For the most part, cropping and docking do nothing more than make the dog look "pretty". I am of course speaking in generalities because I do agree with the benefits of docking some field dogs and the removal of dew claws.
I think as Dobe enthusiasts we should pick our battles and be more concerned with BSL than whether or not we may or may not be able to crop and dock our dogs in the futures...
As for the problem that Twinkletoes brought up: people going against the law and cropping/docking themselves. That brings to mind what happened here when abortion was made illegal. Too much of a demand, illegal to perform so people resorted to dirty tables and rusty coat hangers to take care of their "problem". Indeed, very sad. But it could also be argued like this: "Idiots are going to fight their PitBulls reguardless if it is legal or not: Therefore we should just make it legal". That's insane logic and everyone knows it.
You're opinion that Dobes look better cropped and docked is just that you're opinion and you are more than entitled to it and to voice it. I do not however think that it's a good idea to call those who have a different opinion "idiots". If you are this concerned about the possibility of not being able to crop or dock your dogs in the future I think you'll get a lot further in your quest if you don't resort to name calling. Just my 2 cents...
 

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Helo,
I have actually seen docking of tail and dew claws removed. What do you base your statement "it does not hurt". I saw these puppies laying in a nice cozy blanket at the vets all snuggly. Then one by one picked snip tail rip dew claws out. There shreiking made me sick in side to see their little mouths open and stretching extending their little necks was awful. I am a nurse and have seen alot of things. I have to say this procedure hit home in my heart.
 

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I also rescue. If I found a dobe (which I did, but couldn't get) that was uncropped and undocked I would still get it. It is only a tail and ears. What is the big deal? My girl is crop and flop on one side. She came from a rescue almost a year ago. My husband would love to get her ear fixed. But I will not allow it, why put her through more crap than what she has to go through.

Would you get a face lift because someone else thinks you should have it? The pain will only be short lived. I would never have one done because someone wants me to.

The sad thing is, these dogs don't have a choice. We don't ask them what they want. We ask what do we want.

I guess that is all I am going to say for now. I might come back to this though.
 

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Originally Posted by Dobedad
My question on this subject is....

Why can't governments allow people to make up their own minds. Do what they feel is right. Leave the moral/ethical questions to us.



Personally i feel restrictions are healthy else the world would be in chaos should the goverment give us free rein to make up our own minds on some/most of the laws...there are always gonna be people who have a different set of ethics & morals to you and I. For example I think it is unethical and immoral to use domestic animals for fur to be beaten and tortured etc..but there is gonna be aload of people that see no harm in kicking and beating an animal before taking its fur like there is animal rights people who think its cruel to dock and crop..but others like yourself and many others feel it is your right. These animal rights people love animals that why they do what they do and you love your dobie and want it too look its best so you dock and crop. there is always gonna be someone on 'the other side of the fence' who disagrees.

Just to clear something up ...Going back to my original statement of 'feeling restrictions are healthy' This is for me a vast majority of laws..there are laws i think are ridiculous ..such as the BSL etc. I am not happy with all my goverments restrictions but thats life :)
 

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Stasi wrote:eek:k....so many good posts.....firstly twinkletoes, your dobe looks GREAT! looks similar to mine apart from mine is a red with cropped ears. He has a great head on him....imagine what he would look like with nicely cropped ears!

Nope no cropping happening here ..its banned in the u.k remeber lol...also another reason is i seriously couldnt afford to pay $ 300 or whatever to have them done (hell he has already cost me enough :D) and spend what seems a life time posting his ears and buying tampons to help post them lol ..

I would buy one that looks like gracie with her cute flop and drop, one with ears like trinity (She had a crop done 'underground' style and went 'wrong' ~pretty dobies baby girl) i even bought Harvey with a dodgy tail and would leave them as they were i would even buy a rescue that was professionally cropped and docked ..to me they all are just as gorgeous :D Like you agree there are much worser things happening to animals which the animals rights people should concentrate on .
 
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