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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello :)
I have a sweet dobie of three months, her name is Astra, she is usually very well behaved even when we play, but I must have taught her something wrong because lately when I run or we play tough, ( also when she is a bit tired I think) she stops focusing on the toy and starts biting my sweater and pants and she growls and she seems so angry it unsettled me a bit. :/
I tried to pretend to be hurt like a puppy will do or to tell her no ( this didn鈥檛 really worked she is probably way too excited at that point? ) and also to freeze completely and let her do until she gets tired and this actually worked today.... But am I doing the right thing? how do I correct this behavior and what instigates it? I would really appreciate your suggestions! ( I am learning so much from this forum and I am already very appreciative!! It鈥檚 my point of referral for understanding my dobie) .She is my first Doberman and I would like to understand why and what drives her into this mood.
Dog Vertebrate Carnivore Dog breed Working animal


This is Astra the beast!! 馃槄馃槄
 

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Never never whimper like a hurt pup your not a litter mat your the alpha.
Use ack ack sharp
Become the father dog he鈥檒l just give a little growl But don鈥檛 you growl

Ack ack. Works well it鈥檚 a attention getter than redirect Gentle if he鈥檚 tired timeout
 

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That's a very good thread MMcC recommended above--there's lots of info in it.

But basically, puppies get mouthy and bite to play and they bite to get attention.

So you don't give them either. Get up and leave the room every.single.time. Put them in their crate or a dog-safe room, or even leave them in the room you're in if it's more or less puppy-proofed. Don't try pushing them off, or squealing or even turning your back--a lot of pups seem to think that's play too. And they'll keep coming back for more. Even if you say no! or shove them off roughly, hey--you're giving them attention! Even bad attention is better than none.

Go back in just a minute or two (don't stretch it out too long, or their puppy brain won't make the connection between their behavior and you leaving)--you may even find them asleep (just like a toddler, they sometimes get cranky and really lose it when they are tired.) If they're still up, if they start in on the rough behavior, get up and leave again. You'll probably feel like a jack-in-the-box, but that method will get you the fastest result.

And fortunately, they do outgrow it for the most part. Just hang in there.
 

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Hello :)
鈥渨hen I run or we play tough, ( also when she is a bit tired I think) she stops focusing on the toy and starts biting my sweater and pants and she growls and she seems so angry it unsettled me a bit. :/
She is my first Doberman and I would like to understand why and what drives her into this mood.鈥
If by 鈥減laying tough鈥 are you inferring 'rough-housing' then by doing so and accompanied by running away you might inadvertently and innocently be inciting a mix of drives 鈥攐ne being prey drive and the other drive hinging on the border of defence drive ( i.e. fight or flight). Prey drive being that innate 'given' with the Doberman breed is commonly expressed by stalking, chasing, capture and bite 鈥 pretty much what you describe, except for the growl. If allowed to get out of hand then unwanted behavioural issues can arise 鈥攕uch as chasing the neighbour's cat or the neighbourhood kids scooting along on their skateboards and bikes.

Prey drive is a good attribute when channeled and incited towards an obedience format and prey drive will become an uncontrollable 'nightmare' if allowed to run roughshod by negatively conditioning 'combative' behavior through 'wily nilly' rough play with no training objective as a goal during this critical formative learning period. Therefore in a 'nutshell', please avoid rough play. There are far better productive measures to engage a pup's boundless energy to run chase and bite.

For a starter, then to channel that prey drive attach a length of line to a tug/bite/frilly rope toy and incite drive by animating the toy by dragging it in front of and fleetingly away from Arya. The objective is to redirect the innate puppy need to bite, to something that you provide and that you encourage. You are the key player in the game and by extension you become the 'leader' and the message sent to the pup is 鈥測ou play by my rules or we don鈥檛 play.鈥 The training toys of choice that incite drive are never to be left in possession of the pup when not in use for training purposes.

Create a command of choice such as 鈥search, find, get-it鈥 etc etc. Upon a response to bite and upon picking up the toy then command 鈥here, come鈥 etc culminating with 鈥bring鈥 and gently draw the lure/toy and bite attached pup to within arms reach. Be aware that baby teeth are in play until 5 or 6 months hence emphasis on 'gentle, When in proximity of arms reach then lure an out with a high value food treat ( a small piece of last night's roast 鈥攌ibble is low value and perhaps ineffective). Reward for compliance with food and praise. Work on each part one step at a time until you can group or pair the commands.

At some point enrol your pup in group obedience classes if not already enrolled. Socialization with other dogs as well as environmental socialization is key and not to be neglected.

Continue play 'until the cows come home' if time permits or until visible signs of reluctance to retrieve. Best to end the game before that point and quit the lesson on a high note of accomplishment.

Bear in mind the puppy bite behavior is a constant just like breathing 鈥 however the behavior will be outgrown hopefully once the adult teeth have formed, so exercise patience and never introduce hands in an inadvertent or intentional manner of threat lest an undermining problem of hand shyness will result.

Hopefully this post as the others have left you in a less anxious state regarding your concern. Enjoy your new pup and have fun .......best wishes for success.
Mike
 

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Never never whimper like a hurt pup your not a litter mat your the alpha.
Really? Because both of our Doberman puppies became absolute kissy-faces the second I'd squeal like a puppy. Our current bitch still does at 8. Most of the puppies I've worked with (around 75 over the few years I worked as a trainer) reacted similarly.

It's true that for some dogs this doesn't have the desired effect. But it sure does work for many.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
That's a very good thread MMcC recommended above--there's lots of info in it.

But basically, puppies get mouthy and bite to play and they bite to get attention.

So you don't give them either. Get up and leave the room every.single.time. Put them in their crate or a dog-safe room, or even leave them in the room you're in if it's more or less puppy-proofed. Don't try pushing them off, or squealing or even turning your back--a lot of pups seem to think that's play too. And they'll keep coming back for more. Even if you say no! or shove them off roughly, hey--you're giving them attention! Even bad attention is better than none.

Go back in just a minute or two (don't stretch it out too long, or their puppy brain won't make the connection between their behavior and you leaving)--you may even find them asleep (just like a toddler, they sometimes get cranky and really lose it when they are tired.) If they're still up, if they start in on the rough behavior, get up and leave again. You'll probably feel like a jack-in-the-box, but that method will get you the fastest result.

And fortunately, they do outgrow it for the most part. Just hang in there.
That's a very good thread MMcC recommended above--there's lots of info in it.

But basically, puppies get mouthy and bite to play and they bite to get attention.

So you don't give them either. Get up and leave the room every.single.time. Put them in their crate or a dog-safe room, or even leave them in the room you're in if it's more or less puppy-proofed. Don't try pushing them off, or squealing or even turning your back--a lot of pups seem to think that's play too. And they'll keep coming back for more. Even if you say no! or shove them off roughly, hey--you're giving them attention! Even bad attention is better than none.

Go back in just a minute or two (don't stretch it out too long, or their puppy brain won't make the connection between their behavior and you leaving)--you may even find them asleep (just like a toddler, they sometimes get cranky and really lose it when they are tired.) If they're still up, if they start in on the rough behavior, get up and leave again. You'll probably feel like a jack-in-the-box, but that method will get you the fastest result.

And fortunately, they do outgrow it for the most part. Just hang in there.
Today we practiced your method and is working! 馃槂
She started strong w my sweater growiling and pulling and then few times after me being 鈥渏ack in the box鈥, she stopped and we could play tug war without all that excitement! Thank you so much!!!
A question I have is, before leaving the room, if it鈥檚 proper to open her mouth when she doesn鈥檛 leave my sweater saying 鈥渓eave it鈥 or 鈥 ah- ah鈥?
 

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Congratulations on your success! Keep going!
I used 鈥渄rop it!鈥 and retrieved whatever contraband he had in his mouth.
Others may differ but for me 鈥渄rop it鈥 means drop it and 鈥渓eave it鈥 means leave whatever is in front of you alone!
More photos of the pup are always welcome!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
If by 鈥減laying tough鈥 are you inferring 'rough-housing' then by doing so and accompanied by running away you might inadvertently and innocently be inciting a mix of drives 鈥攐ne being prey drive and the other drive hinging on the border of defence drive ( i.e. fight or flight). Prey drive being that innate 'given' with the Doberman breed is commonly expressed by stalking, chasing, capture and bite 鈥 pretty much what you describe, except for the growl. If allowed to get out of hand then unwanted behavioural issues can arise 鈥攕uch as chasing the neighbour's cat or the neighbourhood kids scooting along on their skateboards and bikes.

Prey drive is a good attribute when channeled and incited towards an obedience format and prey drive will become an uncontrollable 'nightmare' if allowed to run roughshod by negatively conditioning 'combative' behavior through 'wily nilly' rough play with no training objective as a goal during this critical formative learning period. Therefore in a 'nutshell', please avoid rough play. There are far better productive measures to engage a pup's boundless energy to run chase and bite.

For a starter, then to channel that prey drive attach a length of line to a tug/bite/frilly rope toy and incite drive by animating the toy by dragging it in front of and fleetingly away from Arya. The objective is to redirect the innate puppy need to bite, to something that you provide and that you encourage. You are the key player in the game and by extension you become the 'leader' and the message sent to the pup is 鈥測ou play by my rules or we don鈥檛 play.鈥 The training toys of choice that incite drive are never to be left in possession of the pup when not in use for training purposes.

Create a command of choice such as 鈥search, find, get-it鈥 etc etc. Upon a response to bite and upon picking up the toy then command 鈥here, come鈥 etc culminating with 鈥bring鈥 and gently draw the lure/toy and bite attached pup to within arms reach. Be aware that baby teeth are in play until 5 or 6 months hence emphasis on 'gentle, When in proximity of arms reach then lure an out with a high value food treat ( a small piece of last night's roast 鈥攌ibble is low value and perhaps ineffective). Reward for compliance with food and praise. Work on each part one step at a time until you can group or pair the commands.

At some point enrol your pup in group obedience classes if not already enrolled. Socialization with other dogs as well as environmental socialization is key and not to be neglected.

Continue play 'until the cows come home' if time permits or until visible signs of reluctance to retrieve. Best to end the game before that point and quit the lesson on a high note of accomplishment.

Bear in mind the puppy bite behavior is a constant just like breathing 鈥 however the behavior will be outgrown hopefully once the adult teeth have formed, so exercise patience and never introduce hands in an inadvertent or intentional manner of threat lest an undermining problem of hand shyness will result.

Hopefully this post as the others have left you in a less anxious state regarding your concern. Enjoy your new pup and have fun .......best wishes for success.
Mike
Thank you so much for this! So many info in your comment! Thank you for taking the time in writing this I really appreciate it.
It was so instructive for me :) we actually play 鈥渢ug of war鈥 a lot ( sorry my first language is not English) but reading your comment, I thought I might mixed in some 鈥渞ough house鈥 game, with flipping her on a pillow and stuff like that! 馃槄馃槄 in this way I might have overstimulated her... I, have to be more disciplined!! But now I am following what you suggested as well, playing to channel that prey drive that she has really strong yes!...She already brings things back to me and leave them to me without having to convince her with treats! She is truly great really...so so smart!. Sometimes I feel
She is the one teaching me!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Congratulations on your success! Keep going!
I used 鈥渄rop it!鈥 and retrieved whatever contraband he had in his mouth.
Others may differ but for me 鈥渄rop it鈥 means drop it and 鈥渓eave it鈥 means leave whatever is in front of you alone!
More photos of the pup are always welcome!
Thank you! ...there she is!! 鉂

Dog Plant Carnivore Tire Dog breed

Dog Dog breed Carnivore Working animal Companion dog

Head Dog Eye Carnivore Working animal
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hello :)
I have a sweet dobie of three months, her name is Astra, she is usually very well behaved even when we play, but I must have taught her something wrong because lately when I run or we play tough, ( also when she is a bit tired I think) she stops focusing on the toy and starts biting my sweater and pants and she growls and she seems so angry it unsettled me a bit. :/
I tried to pretend to be hurt like a puppy will do or to tell her no ( this didn鈥檛 really worked she is probably way too excited at that point? ) and also to freeze completely and let her do until she gets tired and this actually worked today.... But am I doing the right thing? how do I correct this behavior and what instigates it? I would really appreciate your suggestions! ( I am learning so much from this forum and I am already very appreciative!! It鈥檚 my point of referral for understanding my dobie) .She is my first Doberman and I would like to understand why and what drives her into this mood.
View attachment 143159

This is Astra the beast!! 馃槄馃槄
鉂 I love her ears so expressive!! 馃槀馃槀馃槀
 

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My post is based on your clarification regarding your preference use of the games of tug in your daily interaction with Astra.

The first of the included links below explains the theory and logic of what incites Prey Drive in a dog, and the tail end of that video addresses how to employ prey drive by channeling it towards Basic Obedience and utilizing Tug as a means of reward in a high drive Doberman.

The Italian flag alongside your identifier icon suggests that Astra is Euro-bred (possibly Italy?) and consequently and depending on COI (Coefficients of Inbreeding and % of Kinship) to proven old working bloodlines then prey drive is most definitely going to be high and to be gladly anticipated. The included videos via the links below get from me a 'thumbs-up' as the trainers' advice in the associated videos is IMHO without question highly valid.

Ironically both videos feature the Malinois breed, a popular breed that is noted for its 'over-the-top, high prey drive; nevertheless and IMHO the Doberman/Dobermann of Euro as well as North and South American 鈥 both working and mixed with show bloodlines 鈥 can satisfy the want and need for a high drive Doberman/Dobermann. No breed monopolizes Prey Drive as it is present in many working/hunting/herding breeds. Genetics govern the potential level of prey drive and nurture (i.e. tapping into it through channeling and frequent exercising it) will uncover the potential.

One final thought, avoid at all costs aversive 'training' measures as there is no need to ever explore outdated old school Koehler methods as often times crop up in google searches for an answer to a behavioral issue. Needless to write yet worth emphasizing is the sensitive temperament of the Doberman 鈥 our breed is highly attuned to the mood/emotion of the handler during training and will respond in kind. Exuberant vocal tonal inflection begets high exuberance and cannot be emphasized enough. It's okay to be cheerfully loud and silly, clapping hands etc. for approval for compliance to an command/exercise. Disregard onlookers questioning sanity. o_O Impatience and harsh inflection of vocal tone begets avoidance = defense = shutting down = time to pack up and call it a day. The old adage of 'being able to attract more bees with honey than vinegar' holds true even more so in training our Dobermans 鈥 meaning Positive Reinforcement ( i.e.UTILIZING food, tug/bite games, chase/retrieval games as reward for compliance to a command.)........... and Negative Punishment (i.e. WITHOLDING food, tug/bite games, chase/retrieval games as punishment for non compliance to a command.) To breach the hard-earned handler/canine bond of being a patient, fair, instructive and understanding handler by the use of impatient aversive punitive measures as opposed to positive operant conditioning will undermine trust at the cost of handicapping the dog's confidence and willingness to 'work' for the handler. In a nutshell, then bold capitalized print above is all that needs be known of operant conditioning.

Good to read in one of your posts that you have/are succeeding in overcoming the initial behavioral issue of unwanted nipping and biting......continued wishes for success.
Mike
How To Teach Your Dog To Drop A Tug Or Toy On Command - YouTube

How to End a Tug Game with Your Dog - Dog Training Video - YouTube
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thank u again for all of those informations!
I am following your advices including the videos u posted and I am playing tug of war as those trainers suggest, she is so responsive! I make her sit and I move the toy around with her staying put until my new command, when we play she releases the toy when I ask her...some times she looks at my sleeve with crazy eyes and bites it and usually she let it go when I say 鈥渘o鈥!! ...well other times, she get into it like a Doberman does! Growling and pulling, so I stay still until she releases the grip ..she is stubborn and it鈥檚 a lil stressful to think she is just playing or maybe she is challenging me?? ....in any case I don鈥檛 move or talk to her, I make it as a boring game and when she get tired of it, with no talk or eye contact, I leave the room and come back after a bit, not considering her ( she looks at me with the ears up they are so inquisitive! She is so funny in those moments! it鈥檚 the hardest thing to do actually! 馃槀馃槄) ...next I play some obedience game and
after we play again...it feel we argued! 馃槀馃槀馃槄馃槄
But this biting my sleeves and pulling it鈥檚...unsettling...I want to correct it before she is 40Kilos!! can you tell me why she does it? What her puppy brain is telling her? ..Thanks again for all this Doberman love you share here. Very very helpful!!!
Dog Dog breed Comfort Carnivore Companion dog

With with miss.Cat behind they are both fireplace lovers!!! 馃槍馃槍馃槍
 

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Thank u again for all of those informations!
I am following your advices including the videos u posted and I am playing tug of war as those trainers suggest, she is so responsive! I make her sit and I move the toy around with her staying put until my new command, when we play she releases the toy when I ask her.<.Thanks again for all this Doberman love you share here. Very very helpful!!!
View attachment 143328
With with miss.Cat behind they are both fireplace lovers!!! 馃槍馃槍馃槍
<< "..some times she looks at my sleeve with crazy eyes and bites it and usually she let it go when I say 鈥渘o鈥!! .">>
Try to be pre-emptive the next training session with Astra. Anticipate in advance that your loose sleeve is inciting her to bite and therefor do not wear any long sleeved garment during training if applicable when indoors. Outdoors in cold climates presents another challenge. My understanding from your post is that Astra does not bite your hand/wrist but only a sleeved garment. Would it be safe to engage in play without a long sleeved sweater/jacket etc without chance of getting nipped ? If so then you need to redirect her attention.

Astra's prime reward appears to be a game of tug. Caution is advised in its overuse. The videos I directed you to illustrate tug in a long duration of 15 minutes to a half hour with highly trained adult Malinois that 'understand' the tug games are the ultimate reward for obedience compliance. It is important to sequence tug after obedience. DO NOT engage in continuous tug for those lengths of time without FIRST engaging in the simplest obedience routine. If you begin training sessions with a game of tug (highest value reward) then there is no incentive for the dog to 'work' for a lesser value reward such as food in a high prey drive dog. The following analogy might better illustrate my point. To get a child to finish eating what is nutritionally best for them ( i.e vegetables) at meal time, they get dessert only after the veggies are eaten.

Similar psychology is at play with a dog. Human psychology discovered (Premack Principle) that to get a wanted behavior of non-exciting and unrelated to innate canine behavior (i.e. OBEDIENCE), yet necessary exercise then that exercise was to be engaged in first, and the highly wanted rewarding exercise (i.e BITE/ TUG/ CHASE/ RETRIEVE) by the dog always followed. I hope that makes sense.
How to Apply the Premack Principle to Dog Training | PetMD

To redirect Astra's attention from biting your sleeve then try doing obedience sit, down, stay and stand from an elevated platform such as an outdoor utility picnic table or similar apparatus. Use food as motivators to lure and reward. Step back out of range if Astra tries to get at your sleeve if wearing a sleeved garment. Correct Astra simply by withholding any food reward and repeating the sit command using food as a lure until compliance is attained. Only then engage in tug momentarily and do not make tug the highlight of the session as that will 'muddy up' focus of where you want her to focus and that would be you the handler. If choosing to work obedience from an elevated platform then exercise care that Astra doesn't jump off as she would be prone to injury as the skeletal structure is not fully developed until 18 months. An inexpensive utility harness and attached 12 inch leash/tab will provide insurance in being to grasp Astra to prevent an accidental fall/jump.

To continue redirecting Astra's attention from a need to bite your clothing then the use of TWO tennis balls on a string/rope or two squeak emitting rubber balls will go a long way to incite compliance for a HEEL command. The reason for a seeming laughable squeaky toy 鈥 the noise emitted by such devices emulates the sound of a prey animal in distress and hence an escalation of drive to peak level. Get Astra's attention by visibly presenting ONE of the pre-mentioned toys 鈥 no engagement of the toy yet, just sight of it. Tuck it under the left arm allowing Astra to see where it went. She will automatically align herself to your left side looking up at the toy 鈥 she is highly motivated in prey drive as you have expressed previously. Give the command to HEEL and she most likely will follow alongside after several steps and for compliance then release the ball as reward from under the arm and into Astra's path. A quick momentary game of tug is the reward.

To get a compliant OUT then present the second ball from your pocket and issue the command OUT and the opposition reflex common to all animals will most likely ensure that Astra's interest will become focused on the new toy 鈥 hence an automatic OUT. End the game on a positive note and gather up the toys and tapping into the opposition reflex then the last ball dropped by the dog can be non-confrontationally retrieved by the handler. To incite behavior/prey drive to a greater level then the squeaky noise emitting ball is optimal. Think in terms of how the Euro handlers present their Dobermans in the show ring 鈥 a handler assistant is behind the rope barrier inciting alertness by using a ball; often seen is a squeaky ball thrown in front of the Doberman. IMHO the purpose is two fold using a toy 鈥 primarily it incites alert behavior for a picture perfect stack and secondly it redirects attention (prey/ or play drive ) from the surrounding Dobermans in near proximity to one another thereby defusing the potential SS aggression.

Exercise great care when using toys that elevate drive simply because in such a state of drive the dog becomes next to impervious to danger, such as running into traffic or a running into a harmful obstacle/wire fence etc. in its path. Use such toys to incite drive and encourage entry into water, elevated open grate see-through walkways, narrow walk-it beams and confined spaces such as agility tunnels and chutes. The list is endless as your lifestyle and activity based environment will present many testy and confronting situations.

<<..well other times, she gets into it like a Doberman does! Growling and pulling, so I stay still until she releases the grip ..she is stubborn and it鈥檚 a lil stressful to think she is just playing or maybe she is challenging me?? >>
Some dogs will growl during play and others do not. You must assess the situation based on if Astra is nipping at hands and not a sleeved garment. Establish your position as leader via the OBEDIENCE regimen outlined above and there will never be an issue of challenge. Your pup is far too young and immature to be 'challenging you' 鈥 obstinate defiance yes, however that can be curtailed through several times a day (lasting but a few minutes) of obedience training. A threatening challenge? no, not what you have described.

<<....in any case I don鈥檛 move or talk to her, I make it as a boring game and when she get tired of it, with no talk or eye contact, I leave the room and come back after a bit, not considering her ( she looks at me with the ears up they are so inquisitive! She is so funny in those moments! it鈥檚 the hardest thing to do actually! ...next I play some obedience game and after we play again...it feel we argued!
But this biting my sleeves and pulling it鈥檚...unsettling...I want to correct it before she is 40Kilos!! can you tell me why she does it? What her puppy brain is telling her? . >>
I outlined above that it is necessary to establish the OBEDIENCE FIRST and only then engage in momentary tug games to provide high value reward for high prey drive Dobermans. Ingrain into Astra the obedience command sit and use that coupled with using her name Astra to redirect her attention. Using the word no has no impact on the behavior simply because Astra has no idea what is expected and since you have not provided a directional correction to curtail the unwanted behavior. Walking away from the conflicting behavior is not showing Astra what you want. Please refrain from lengthy ongoing tug sessions as I understand you to be practicing. Use tug games ONLY for reward for compliance to obedience exercises. Avoid designless and aimless games of tug, I cannot emphasize that enough, lest an unwanted 'Pandora's Box' of despised behavior will surface.

Keep in mind that Astra will most likely express the 'bity' behavior until after her deciduous (baby) teeth are replaced by adult teeth at around 5 months. What you are experiencing with Astra is common behavior and not surprising nor alarming IMHO. Hopefully the advice outlined in all posts will aid you in coming out the other side of dealing with the current troubling behavior successfully. And no, there is no need for the worrisome issue that you have presented regarding concern that at 40kg Astra will still be doing this behavior. The current behavior won't continue once your rules of tug play are implemented and adhered to.

I hope this post has been of use and resolves your issue with Astra as I sense your concern as a novice handler to our breed. When the 'dust all settles' regarding Astra's behavioral issue as it imminently will, then the hours of devoted work put into this formative period of Astra's learning will pay unimaginable dividends in experiencing Astra's loyalty, utmost companionship willing to engage in any physical or leisure activity at the drop of a hat and add into that mix, a formidable protector when/if ever need be.
Mike
 
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