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· Sea Hag
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Zucker said:
Below is a copy of the doberman standard from www.dpca.org What I'm hoping for is that following the standard we could post pics of actual show dogs and comment on those dogs' conformation. ]
I think that's fine if people want to volunteer photos of their own dogs. But besides copyright issues, it's just plain rude to copy photos of dogs belonging to other people without their knowlege and consent. This is especially true if the intent is to critique the dog.

I didn't think it was an issue with the photos Elly has already posted..these dogs (and their owners) are long dead. But when you get into the area of today's dogs, it's best to show some courtesy. You can step on a lot of toes, you also can find yourself in legal trouble for copyright violations.

Any dog can be critiqued with the owner's consent..it doesn't necessarily have to be a show dog. All you need is a clear photo taken straight on from the side. Photos can be deceiving at times, you can't always consider them as gospel. But they can be a good educational tool.
 

· Sea Hag
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LapDog said:
Its awesome how they learn to to eventually stand, tail up, ears up lol
To a certain degree, that's just temperament/genetics. Both of the dogs whose pics I've posted had very little actual show training at the time those pics were taken. That was the second time the red male had been stacked in his life, the first time had been about 8 months prior to that.

Dogs can certainly be trained to hold their tails and ears up, and proper paw placement to free stack..but it's just easier all the way around to find confident dogs who naturally have good body language.

Here's the red male at about 5 months of age. This pic was taken from a distance, cropped and enlarged. As you can see, he naturally stands pretty close to the stacked position.
 

· Sea Hag
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Blackdog said:
Cheryl - Rush is very pretty!
Thanks! He's got a lot of good qualities, it just was never in the cards for him to be a show dog. Uniball, with ear cartilege so heavy the ears wouldn't stand..they were strung when he was about 14 months old. LOL, he's in the category of "amazingly good quality pet quality dog", and a happy goofball.
 

· Sea Hag
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Blackdog said:
Very pretty.
Don't just love Tom's photos? And they're so nice to deal with.
Yeah, I love his work. It infuriated me when I saw him working at the Nationals for the last few years, since I didn't have any dogs with me. So I was really, really happy to see him out here for the big Indio cluster in January..everything finally came into alignment-they were there, I was there WITH dog!

People are free to critique both Rush and Razzle to their heart's content..then I'll jump in and say "yea or nay", and tell you about things that can't be seen in the photos. For some reason I can only figure out how to post thumbnails, sorry about that!
 

· Sea Hag
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gatehouse said:
Zucker, you should just go sit ring side when the dobes are showing .....there are plenty of experts there LOLOLOL
LOLOL.

But this really is the best advice for someone who really wants to learn about structure. Find a competent mentor, and sit ringside with them during the judging. It's always better to look at living dogs. And movement is the most difficult thing of all to learn..you need to look at lots and lots of dogs moving,and it helps when they're all being gaited through the same patterns.
 

· Sea Hag
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Blackdog said:
Dews and tails aren't a dq, like natural ears aren't a dq, but it's going to have to be an almost perfect dog everywhere else to get judges not to seriously penalize the dog for it. There have been a couple natural earred dogs finish in the states, but none that I know of with tails. I don't know about dew claws.
None of the natural eared doberman champions in this country (I think there have been four) also had undocked tails.

I think dew claws would be considered faulty. However, I can't see any judge considering the presence of dew claws more than a *very* minor fault, hardly worthy of notice.

My gut instinct is most judges would SEVERELY penalize a dog with an undocked tail. It's possible some could even excuse such a dog from the ring for lack of merit. I think it would be considered far more serious than uncropped ears.
 

· Sea Hag
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TracyJo said:
How do you teach them to stack? Do you bait and physically place them into it and then teach 'stay' in that position?
I've always found that dogs who are square and fairly correct don't really need to be "taught" to stack..they naturally stand very close to that position, as it's the most comfortable way for them to stand. The more a dog has to be taught proper paw placement, the more faulty the dog.

My Murrey bitch told us when she was about 12 weeks old that she knew more about being a show dog than we ever would...LOL, she was right!

I do lots of separate little bits of training-puppies are taught to bait using popcorn. They're taught an obedience stand-stay. I get them used to having their mouth opened and examined. And I socialize them like mad. But they're rarely (if ever) stacked as tiny guys. If you lay that kind of foundation, it's not that hard for a handler to bring it all together in the ring itself.
 

· Sea Hag
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gatehouse said:
If it's built right it will move right.
While I generally agree with this thought, I never can forget that one of the absolute best moving dobermans I've ever seen was also one of the ugliest dobermans I've ever seen.

Also, you can have situations where you have "complementing" faults, a combination of faults that work together that can give the impression of good movement. A few of the big winners of the recent past were praised for their outstanding side gait..the reality is they were overangulated in the rear AND long bodied..if that body hadn't been as long as it was, they never would have been able to get out of their own way.
 

· Sea Hag
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MaryAndDobes said:
That's right - a gay tail, AKA a squirrel tail, is curled. The Doberman tail should be a continuation of the spine and desirable in the 1:00 position.
Many times puppies will be re-docked at ear cropping time to shorten the tail in an effort to mask that curling back effect. The tail is still gay if it points straight up. Generally, the croup is flatter than the ideal when the tail is gay.
 

· Sea Hag
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TracyJo said:
Mary,
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to look at Chi. You said that she has a short upper arm but that she's too tall - Should her back be longer to square her out? Do you think her brisket will drop as she matures more? She's 14 months now.
No, you don't want a long back. In the ideal, her legs would be shorter, and that would square her up. The dog shoulld be as long as it is tall..so the distance from the ground to the high point of the withers should equal the distance from the sternum to the rear projection of the hip. Also, the distance from the ground to the elbow should be equal to the distance from the elbow to the high point of the withers.

It's possible her chest might drop more at 14 months, but there's such a pronounced gap I think it's pretty unlikely the brisket is ever going to hit the elbow. Not impossible, but not anything I'd count on, either.

The short upper arm Mary mentioned results in the entire front assembly being placed too far forward on the body..this means the part of the brisket that should meet the elbow wouldn't be the deepest part of the brisket anyway. If you look at Chi's pic, you can see the deepest part of the brisket is back past the elbow.
 

· Sea Hag
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TracyJo said:
Thank you! Makes perfect sense now :)
Short upper arms are really, really common, and really insidious, both in their effect on the individual dog and in the difficulty of breeding away from them.

They reduce the amount of visible forechest, restrict front movement. They also throw the proportions and balance of some dogs way out of whack.

Some dogs look long bodied because of that front assembly being moved too far forward. In Chi's case, the opposite is true. While you look for a short back (as opposed to a long back), you also don't want the back TOO short..and if Chi's upper arm was the same length as her shoulder blade and the front assembly placed where it shoud be, then she'd be too short backed.
 
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