Dobe/rotties & dobe/pits?

I don't know, newpup, I'm not much of a fan of breed mixtures. I even less happy when they are breeds that weren't intended for at least the same general sort of purpose.

Rott's were originally general purpose farm and herding dogs and got adapted for use as other things. And even though they and Dobermans probably share a common ancestor (the now extinct German Shepherd) they are temperamentally quite different and enough different structurally that I don't regard them as a particularly good cross.

As far as Dobes and Pitt go--I don't think you need any more potential for dog aggression added to a Doberman. Pitts are named for what they were developed for--pit fighting--most recently for pit fighting with other dogs. And while a good pitt should never be agressive toward a person (they used to discard from all breeding programs Pitts that showed any aggression toward people) they are bred to be dog aggressive.

I prefer to stick to pure breds--you are much more likely to be able to reasonably get in temperament and looks what you thought you were going to.

Here's a little cautionary note--since I've been working in a vet clinic and see a lot of dogs that come in from rescues, pounds, humane societies and the like I've been amazed at what they get called in terms of breed crosses. Just lately anything that is black and tan and comes from our local humane society (which is a very good one) comes in as a Rott X--why, I can't imagine. But it made me laugh a lot when one of our clients came in with a dog which had been identified as a Rott/Aussie X--he was about 4 months when I first saw him and I told the owner then that I'd bet anything he cared to bet the the dog was a black and tan American Cocker Spaniel. At a year and a half now and trimmed like a cocker if he isn't purebred I'd be surprised and he was close enough to be ILP'd as a cocker and is now just starting a career in AKC agility.

On the other hand we get a lot of alleged lab crosses in that are clearly part pitt--no one wants to admit to pitt because of liability issues though.

Even though there are some Dobe crosses out there there aren't a lot--most of the so-called Dobe crosses appear to be more like shepherd crosses of some variety.

dobebug said:

Just out of curiosity FranMan, why do you think Dobes could use a little Rottweiler in them? If you want a blocky, heavily built dog with a lot of bone why wouldn't you just get a Rott.

If you are looking at Dobes you should probably take a good look at the standard which calls for a medium sized dog of a rather more athletic type than a Rott.

There are, heavens know, breeders of Dobes who produce dogs within the standard sizes but with so much bone they look coarse and I can supply you with names if that's the sort of dog you are looking for.

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It doesn't matter about size not sure why you jump to that. Rotties are a lot more relaxed.

Murreydobe said:

LOL, thanks, I think I'll pass on that idea.

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I wouldn't want any dobie in my rotty... but I don't think that was the the question the thread starter was asking.

charlesmdodson said:

Yeah, I think if you look at the history, weren't Rotties influential in the creation of the Dobie? Just a thought... I dont know why you'd add more now. You could always buy a petite Rottie that would fit the bill...

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The breed is believed to have been created from several different breeds of dogs that had the characteristics that Dobermann was looking for, including the Pinscher, the Beauceron, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Shepherd Dog, the black Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Manchester Terrier and the German Shepherd Dog. The exact ratios of mixing, and even the exact breeds that were used, remains uncertain to this day, although many experts believe that the Doberman Pinscher is a combination of at least four of these breeds. The single exception is the documented cross with the Greyhound. It is also widely believed that the German Shepherd gene pool was the single largest contributor to the Doberman breed.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doberman_Pinscher

FranMan said:

It doesn't matter about size not sure why you jump to that. Rotties are a lot more relaxed.

I wouldn't want any dobie in my rotty... but I don't think that was the the question the thread starter was asking.

The breed is believed to have been created from several different breeds of dogs that had the characteristics that Dobermann was looking for, including the Pinscher, the Beauceron, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Shepherd Dog, the black Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Manchester Terrier and the German Shepherd Dog. The exact ratios of mixing, and even the exact breeds that were used, remains uncertain to this day, although many experts believe that the Doberman Pinscher is a combination of at least four of these breeds. The single exception is the documented cross with the Greyhound. It is also widely believed that the German Shepherd gene pool was the single largest contributor to the Doberman breed.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doberman_Pinscher

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Yikes, FranMan....I have Dobes because I like the high energy level--I don't have Rott's for a variety of reasons but part of it has to do with the more relaxed style. It wasn't exactly a jump when I asked if you thought they needed to be heavier boned and that was why I asked about it--there are a ton of people out there that think Dobes should carry bone the way that Rott's do.

No the question originally was about crosses--and I'm not generally in favor of crosses and said that and said why--I was primarily curious about your reason for thinking Dobes could use more Rott in them....now I know. I don't agree but at know why you think so.

That Wikipedia discription of the basis of the Doberman breed is not particularly good. I've had Dobes since 1959 and have read practically every source on the breed that has been available. In recent years there have been interesting theories advanced about the basis of the Doberman but if you go back to the original sources you'll find some very different information.

Wikipedia is correct about one thing--the exact breeds used and the ratios were and remain undetermined but just for general interests sake here are a few bits of information.

Pinscher simply means "terrier" in German. The Pinscher referred to in older texts on the development of the Dobe generally say that the Black German Pinscher (a black German terrier type--now extinct as a breed) was probably one of the dogs used in starting the breed.

The Beauceron has only very recently been claimed as a progenitor of the Doberman. It's possible although if you look at pictures of very early Doberman predicessors and/or very early Dobes they don't look all that much like Beaucerons. It's likely that the Beauceron was originally bred from one of the other probably predicessors of the Doberman--the now extinct German Shepherd (this is a very different dog from the German Shepherd Dog recognised by the AKC).

The Doberman and Rottweiler share a couple of probable ancestors--but the Rott as you and I know it today was not a foundation breed for the Doberman. Dobes and Rott's probably included in their background the German Shepherd (see above) and the immediate predicessor of Rott's was likely the "Butcher's Dog" a dog developed as a general purpose working town and country dog who could do a variety of things but started out life as a herder/drover. The Dobe may also have that "Butcher's Dog" as part of it's background.

The Thuringian Shepherd Dog may be the same (extinct now) German Shepherd dog that early texts talk about--Thuringia is the general area where Dobes originated. Neither breed, if they are different breeds, exists today.

The black Greyhound is a known addition to the background of the Doberman--but this is a late addition. Not one of the early foundation breeds.

I have only recently seen any indication at all that Great Danes in any form were part of the background breeding of the Doberman. This particular breed seems to be wholly someones invention--and a very recent one at that.

Weimaraners and German Shorthaired Pointers fall into the same category. Neither breed existed when the Doberman was being developed. What was there and was used (from several very early sources) was a "German Pointer" a dog described as a black and white field dog. This dog also seems to play a part in the development of both Weims and GSP's. But neither were progenitor breeds of the Doberman if you go back to early sources--they show up in popular books on dogs for the novice usually published in or after the 1970's.

The Manchester Terrier (or English Black and Tan Terrier as the breed was also known as) is another known outside cross late in the development of the Doberman. The black greyhound bitch was NOT the only known breed addition.

The very early sources make it very clear that the original foundation breeds were pretty much all mixes--after all Herr Doberman was the dogcatcher as well as the tax collector. He used what he had available and chose dogs who were sharp and inclined to be naturally protective. That was the original purpose--personal protection dogs. The dogs and bitches he continued to use were those that produced type. He would hardly recognise the Doberman of today.

Just remember that simply because something is in print it doesn't necessarily mean it's gospel. I think some of the stuff that gets printed these days about where the Dobe comes from and what the background dogs are originate because it's easier to say that blue was a color from the Weimaraner--even though blue exists in Weim's it is not an allowed color and it's much more likely that both dilution colors come from the terrier and terrier mixes that played a role in the Dobe's formation. Blue and fawn are common enough in breeds where red and black are normal colors.

I'll get off my soapbox now....

Yeah everything here says, shepherd, pit, or lab mix. a bunch of rott ones though too.

Newpup, in defense of mixed breeds, eventhough yes, I do have a purebred Dobie as well, there are some GREAT mixed breed dogs out there. You can find a dog with great temperment, few health problems, etc...that can be the greatest dog that you have ever had. I know a lot of us have mixes along with our Dobies that we just adore.

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Our dog Strike is one of them. He is totally amazing and has been very easy to own overall. He has a great temperament and very few health problems. My family is totally obsessed and we couldnt have asked for a better dog.

Really half the time they aren't sure what the dogs are in shelters, so really I would go by the temperment if you are looking for a nice mix breed. I personally LOVE mutts and have had some wonderful ones in my life. I have also worked at many local shelters and have met some amazing dogs. There is just about everything anyone could want out there looking for a home, so get what makes your heart skip a beat.

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My shelter dosnt know what is what sometimes, lol. They put Strike as a shepherd mix, but then again thats what they say for half the dogs. They had a red nosed pit as a french mastiff mix.... I could really go in there and name half the breeds for them. But that is great advice, just go find a dog that steals your heart! (more or less:sunglasse )


Although I love Strike to death, I am not a fan of breed mixes. But I would support any shelter mix in a second.

I will say it again because I happen to love both breeds(rott and dobes). If you'd think anyone would want them mixed it would be someone like me, right? the ultimate dog? No. I love the differences in them, because of and in spite of them. German origins, working dogs, black and tan, large and athletic. They definately have there similarities but these are two separate breeds and they need to stay that way. I am totally psyched by the fact that I get to love both!!!!!!!!!eace: :biggrin55
Wow dobebug, thanks for all that info! Good read.:biggthump