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I'm starting this due to a quote in another thread

Agreed. I highly doubt that this puppy came from a reputable breeder considering the fact that she was placed in home #1 @ 8 weeks of age with a military family that had 2 children. I can't think of any reputable breeders that would consider that an approved or acceptable home.
:bigmistake:


OK, I'd like to know WHAT is wrong with a home that is Military and has children? I'm a MILITARY wife, when I got my girl we had three kids at home, twins that were 15 and a 9 year old. I've had her through THREE moves and have lived a HOTEL for four months until I could find a house rather than give her up due to breed restrictions in military housing. She is best friends with my youngest child (who's now 15). Being a Active duty Military family should NEVER DISQUALIFY a potential home for a breeder who knows how to do a PROPER home evaluation!




A bit of backstory since it's been a while since I was here on a regular basis.

I adopted Angel when she was 6 months old from a breeder that is pretty reputable, health testing, dogs proven in sport and conformation (Eastern Euro lines). The breeder had forced her prior owner (non military, stable homeowner) to give her back to them because hte prior owner had kept her in an outdoor kennel FULL TIME with no socialization. When I got her she wasn't even frikkin HOUSEBROKEN. If you look at threads I created you'll see I went through TWO BOUTS of Demodex mange, a possible obstruction and many other trials with her.

I know MANY other military families with kids that would make WONDERFUL homes for any dog of any breed. WHY deny adoption? Yes, hter are SOME military familes that make poor homes, but no more of a percentage than civilian families. Judge you potential puppy (or rescue) homes on an INDIVIDUAL basis, not because a member of the houshold is SERVING YOUR COUNTRY!
 

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I'm starting this due to a quote in another thread



:bigmistake:


OK, I'd like to know WHAT is wrong with a home that is Military and has children? I'm a MILITARY wife, when I got my girl we had three kids at home, twins that were 15 and a 9 year old. I've had her through THREE moves and have lived a HOTEL for four months until I could find a house rather than give her up due to breed restrictions in military housing. She is best friends with my youngest child (who's now 15). Being a Active duty Military family should NEVER DISQUALIFY a potential home for a breeder who knows how to do a PROPER home evaluation!




A bit of backstory since it's been a while since I was here on a regular basis.

I adopted Angel when she was 6 months old from a breeder that is pretty reputable, health testing, dogs proven in sport and conformation (Eastern Euro lines). The breeder had forced her prior owner (non military, stable homeowner) to give her back to them because hte prior owner had kept her in an outdoor kennel FULL TIME with no socialization. When I got her she wasn't even frikkin HOUSEBROKEN. If you look at threads I created you'll see I went through TWO BOUTS of Demodex mange, a possible obstruction and many other trials with her.

I know MANY other military families with kids that would make WONDERFUL homes for any dog of any breed. WHY deny adoption? Yes, hter are SOME military familes that make poor homes, but no more of a percentage than civilian families. Judge you potential puppy (or rescue) homes on an INDIVIDUAL basis, not because a member of the houshold is SERVING YOUR COUNTRY!

First of all I would like to thank your husband for his service to our country.

In my post that you quoted, I should've been more specific and said "small or young children". In the thread that you quoted me from, I was referring to a puppy that had been placed in a home with 2 toddlers. That is quite different than a puppy being placed in a home with a 9 y/o and two 15 year olds.

Where did I ever say that ALL military families should be disqualified as a potential home from either a reputable breeder or a reputable rescue?

Most reputable breeders and rescues do judge potential homes on an individual basis. However, I think it is fair to say that most have rules about placing a puppy/dog in a home with children under a certain age, regardless of whether it is a military home or not.

Angel is very lucky to have you as her owner as you seem very dedicated to her and her well being.
 

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I'm not saying it is always the right decision, but, I can understand why some might not want to place puppies with military families. Sadly, you see a lot of ads for dogs (and other pets), saying they are being sold or given away because the owner is being transfered. There is another thread on here about someone who was being threatened with possible eviction from their on-base housing because they had a Dobe. If you get sent overseas, it can be difficult to take you pets with you.

A lot of breeders and rescues won't place puppies/dogs in homes with small children, military or not.
 
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I think as long as the dog get the attention he needs it shouldnt be a big deal. I am a Military husband and my wife has been on deployments and we got Tank at weeks old and i have a 6 yr old boy and 2 yr girl and our family is perfect. Tank is now 5 months and is already protective of my baby girl and LOVES to snuggle and sleep next to my wife even though she's always gone and still a new face to him. :)
 

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I think as long as the dog get the attention he needs it shouldnt be a big deal. I am a Military husband and my wife has been on deployments and we got Tank at weeks old and i have a 6 yr old boy and 2 yr girl and our family is perfect. Tank is now 5 months and is already protective of my baby girl and LOVES to snuggle and sleep next to my wife even though she's always gone and still a new face to him. :)
Thank you to your wife for her service to our country. Just out of curiosity, did you purchase Tank from a reputable breeder?
 

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Unpleasant as it may be, I think people have to accept that military families and college students are both high risk groups. Talk to anyone who works at a shelter, a rescue or even a breeder in a college town or near a military base. LOTS AND LOTS of abandoned animals. In terms of the military, this was true even before on base housing became problematic for people with dobermans.

That doesn't mean that every military family and every college student is going to be a bad and/or temporary home. Just that breeders have to go by the numbers-and I certainly would sceen these homes with even more care than usual. The potential home would have to do a pretty good job of proving to me they'd provide a life long home for the dog.
 

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It doesn't mean it's a "bad" home, as in abusive or unloving. Just that it's unpredictable or not well rooted. I volunteer at a shelter, we have 2 dogs at the moment who were surrendered/returned as a result of deployment. I respect your spouse's service, I did my 4 (USN) but let's really be honest, that time isn't exactly a stable, predicable future. Property of the US government and all...

Remember, its NOT about you.. From the breeder/rescue perspective, this is about the right home for the dog. A military home (as noble as it is) is a realistically tough life with lots of change to be expected. Couple it with 2 small kids? Remember, its not about you when it comes to appropriate placement, it's about the dog.
 

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I think as long as the dog get the attention he needs it shouldnt be a big deal. I am a Military husband and my wife has been on deployments and we got Tank at weeks old and i have a 6 yr old boy and 2 yr girl and our family is perfect. Tank is now 5 months and is already protective of my baby girl and LOVES to snuggle and sleep next to my wife even though she's always gone and still a new face to him. :)
It's not the deployment that is the problem. It's the overseas PCSing that is more likely a problem. Or even PCSing to certain out of the way duty stations and bases. There are overseas bases that do not allow pets, and even in those that do (or you live off base), you likely have to go through a quarantine process which can take the time and money some do not have or simply do not wish to take. And you never know when you may end up at one of these locations. So, some reputable breeders or rescues may choose to pass because of the many unknowns in favor of a family with more stability and more control over their lives and the life of their dogs for the next however many years the dog lives. It is not saying that a military family is a horrible family, it is just playing the odds in favor of the dog.
 

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I'm not saying it is always the right decision, but, I can understand why some might not want to place puppies with military families. Sadly, you see a lot of ads for dogs (and other pets), saying they are being sold or given away because the owner is being transfered. There is another thread on here about someone who was being threatened with possible eviction from their on-base housing because they had a Dobe. If you get sent overseas, it can be difficult to take you pets with you.

A lot of breeders and rescues won't place puppies/dogs in homes with small children, military or not.
Ads are in our daily newspaper all the time. "Husband transferred. Can't take pet with us." We were transferred to Munich Germany and you better believe the cocker went with us. That was in the early 60's. Had to have a crate custom made. Never any question that we would give him up.
 

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So astra... forgive me if I misunderstood your intentions of sharing your opinions. I respect just about everyone's opinions unless you are blatantly abusive to animals.

As for the child aspect of things, you don't believe a doberman puppy should be placed in a home with children. I don't want to draw lines in the sand about age when it would be acceptable, so lets just use babies or toddlers for example. What if a doberman owner becomes pregnant? Should that owner give up their doberman? I think that a owner who becomes pregnant and has a baby with a doberman in the home (not a puppy) would be more dangerous if the grown doberman had not been socialized with babies. A puppy placed in a home with a baby and/or toddlers would grow up with those children and be accustomed to them. I know of many families with small children who got there puppies from reputable breeders. I would never place a rescued doberman in a home with babies or toddlers. But, that's just my opinion.

I have a 8yo son and a baby on the way. I plan on lots of supervised socialization and the baby will never be with the doberman unsupervised. It will remain this way until he/she (we don't know yet, we're waiting until I get back home to find out the sex) is old enough to train with the dog and the dog respects him/her as an authority.

And as for the military aspect... I think this one is more difficult to respond to. The one fact is that most, if not all, posts have bans against certain 'dangerous' breeds including the doberman. If you live off post, you aren't restricted. However, some over seas duty stations will not allow dobermans period. I think the military aspect is something that breeders have to look hard into. I explained to my breeder my situation in some detain, outlining the next six to seven years of my career. I think that breeders much deal with service members on a case by case basis.

Anyway, I hope I didn't ruffle anyone's feathers. I've stayed out of forums for a while, but I thought I'd chime in on the military topic.

And lastly, to all the rest of you that serve, have served, or love someone who serves, thank you.
 

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I just want to touch on this part:

It's not the deployment that is the problem.

There are A LOT of single military people, I am one of them, so yes if I get deployed Jones can't come with me (Though I have a plan, as my boy will never leave me or my family). But there are many people that don't care and don't have a plan. Many people I know (yes, military people) see animals as something that they can just get rid of as they please, and if they want a pet when they get back or get to their new base they will get a one then (and I have heard this come out of an individuals mouth). Is this everyone? No. Are there people like this? Yes.

For Reference:
I got Jones from a Military family that was moving from FL to CA they had 3 dogs (2 adult dogs and a 10 wk old Jones) they didn't want to travel with a puppy, so they were going to turn him over to a shelter, because it was too much of a hassle to travel with a puppy.

Now I am not saying this is all Military families, but there are good and bad families just like on the civilian side. So instead of the broad label, YES, a breeder/rescue should look at the individual person, and they are the only ones that should be able to make that call. I agree with MurreyDobe when she said that Military and College Students are high risk, and I think yes they should be looked at thoroughly.... There are probably some breeders(or rescues) probably don't let military people buy(adopt) one of their dogs, which I can fully respect. There are probably breeders(or rescues) that don't like small children in the house with a large powerful dog. There are plenty of variables and situations that could matter to someone and not as much to others.

What matters is the individual person (family) and the person they are doing business with.
 

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I hope so. I looked for about 3 months and asked all the questions, i think. He had a 1 year health guarentee, ears already cropped, and full pedegree with a national grand champ as a sire. But when i asked on here about the breeders no one knew of them.
 

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Sorry to keep rambling but it was reading the book Always Faithful about WWII service doberman that made me fall in love and buy one.
 

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Right I am going to add my thoughts to this as a British Military wife. Now while the British Army doesn't have such stringent rules on dogs in housing, we also do more foreign postings so moving about with a dog can become a massive issue. Rulings on housing here are you have to apply to the housing office for permission to own a dog, you can have up to 2 dogs in each household. With this you have to include what type of dog you are looking at getting. Now we live in a flat, which isn't ideal for a Doberman so it means we have to take him out more often on longer walks which isn't an issue. Is my current home truly an acceptable place for my dog, size wise probably not, but I love my dog to pieces so couldn't give a rats a$$ about not having a garden.

I think what astra was getting at with that comment is that the military lifestyle is high risk. Everything you try to do in life once you have signed on that dotted line for your country is penalised. Getting a loan? You're penalised. Getting a mortgage? You're penalised. If your husband was deployed away for 12 months (right time frame for American soldiers??) could you cope on your own with a Doberman and 3 kids who miss their dad like crazy? Sorry to put a downer on this and I would never wish it on anyone, what if he got KIA? You then would have to find housing outside the military whilst trying to look after yourself, your children and the dog! Could you honestly do that? I don't think I could. What if he got seriously injured? Could you handle that with your children and dog? I know this is a lot of what if's and you can't live you life that way normally. But a military life isn't normal, and you have to ask these questions as there is a high potential for this kind of situation happening. And if you are asking these questions I am sure a reputable breeder is asking them too!!

Let me point something serious out here, if something was to happen quick time and you were required to move asap but rules applied about taking your dog he would have to stay, the children wouldn't. So that poor animal gets left without a home or loving owners. Is that fair on that dog, no its not. I noticed you put you stayed in a hotel for months before finding housing. Fair play to you, not everyone would do that! And there is your issue, you are a minority.

Yes each breeder should consider the individual circumstances every time but being naive enough to think that they shouldn't consider a military family and lifestyle as being wrong for a dog is just plain silly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
First of all I would like to thank your husband for his service to our country.

In my post that you quoted, I should've been more specific and said "small or young children". In the thread that you quoted me from, I was referring to a puppy that had been placed in a home with 2 toddlers. That is quite different than a puppy being placed in a home with a 9 y/o and two 15 year olds.

Where did I ever say that ALL military families should be disqualified as a potential home from either a reputable breeder or a reputable rescue?

Most reputable breeders and rescues do judge potential homes on an individual basis. However, I think it is fair to say that most have rules about placing a puppy/dog in a home with children under a certain age, regardless of whether it is a military home or not.

Angel is very lucky to have you as her owner as you seem very dedicated to her and her well being.
I can understand being wary of homes with young children, even though I LITERALLY learned to walk pulling myself up to stand on a Doberman. Many parents don't know how to teach their kids respect for dogs. I was nipped in the face, not due to teasing but due to running in the house, tripping and injuring the animal (lets just say poor Baron ended up with an accidental 'man check'). I would have never though to tease any of the dogs (though I drive my Moms cats insane). I was taught better and knew what would happen if I did (far more fearful of getting my backside torn up than getting bitten). I looked at mym Moms Dobes as siblings, they looked after and were literally nanny dogs to me. The female would NOT allow me to rock too hard on my rocking horse (the old type with the springs you could literally make jump up and down if you got it going hard enough) or lie on the ground if it was wet. The male slept next to my bed at night.

I have however seen quite a bit of discimination against Military families when it comes to reputable breeders and rescues. In fact I volunteered (and was the State Coordinator) for MAstiff rescue and we were not allowed to adopt to Military families. It was a policy I strongly disagreed with as again I though it should be evaluated on the families dog ownership history. We've avoided overseas and Hawaii orders and finally don't have to worry about it as this is my husbands retirement tour.

I know first hand how unsteady a militry life can be, however it's only as unsteady as the people in it and the support system they have, which with dog ownership includes the breeder they get their puppy from. I fortunately have doberamn savvy family that would take Angel with all her problems if I couldn't et her back to the breeder (since I'm across the country from her now) with the breeders approval. I make plans for everything, I think maybe that's what many don't do.
 

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As for the child aspect of things, you don't believe a doberman puppy should be placed in a home with children. I don't want to draw lines in the sand about age when it would be acceptable, so lets just use babies or toddlers for example. What if a doberman owner becomes pregnant? Should that owner give up their doberman? I think that a owner who becomes pregnant and has a baby with a doberman in the home (not a puppy) would be more dangerous if the grown doberman had not been socialized with babies. A puppy placed in a home with a baby and/or toddlers would grow up with those children and be accustomed to them. I know of many families with small children who got there puppies from reputable breeders. I would never place a rescued doberman in a home with babies or toddlers. But, that's just my opinion.
Statistically, families with young children are the most likely to rehome their dog. As a person working in rescue, we do not adopt out to families with young children, unless they have a long history with the breed and have shown commitment. I've personally known people who swore they would NEVER get rid of their dog if they had a baby, and they had to rehome when their child was a toddler, because it was just too much to handle.

So I certainly can see why rescues and breeders may not adopt to a family with young children. There are certainly great homes with kids out there, and exceptions are made, but sometimes rescues and breeders just have to play the odds, for the sake of the dog.
 

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I dont know why base housing has a problem with Dobermans, Did they forget the hundreds if not thousands of Dobermans donated by the National Doberman Club of America who served and died for their handlers and country during WWII. The doberman is the official working dog of the USMC.
Yep, it is called voluntary amnesia, that and the fact that they can point to the fact that because they havent bothered to socialise the dog as we make a point of doing the dog is not always so nice to have around. Basically it is 'do as I say not do as I do' with most military conventions. I remember when I was first married to my hubby, we were posted to Malta, everyday I passed by the Dog Units pens and the dogs would go off at me alarming. So everyday I made a point of just sitting there, quietly, not staring at the dogs but just sitting watching the world go by. One of the handlers asked me what I was doing and I told him, letting the dogs see that not all human beings are a threat which is what you should have taught them. That there was a time and a place for aggression and if someone simply walks or sits down in their line of sight they shouldnt go off on one. He told me that anyone of the dogs could rip me limb from limb, I said I didnt doubt him. But a well trained dog shouldnt even consider it unless the command had been given to protect his owner or airforce property. Eventually I was able to actually go into their pens and give them cuddles and yet I knew if I was up to no good around an aircraft at night they would do their job, which is what I would expect.

I have been a military wife, my husband has been deployed to many places, some we could go with him to some we couldnt. We have always had dogs and no matter what they stayed with us come hell or high water, once forcing us to live seperately for 6 months because my husbands temporary assignment was to Hong Kong and we couldnt go with him with the dog.

It is not just military families who abandon their dogs. Here in Spain because of the recession hundreds of families are returning from whence they came, the dream of living in the sun shattered by the almighty exchange rate and no work being available. Dogs are either handed in to shelters, (if they are lucky) or abandoned, some have been put down. I get sick to the stomach to read, 'returning home, can't take dog with me,' BULLTISH, (rearrange that word at your leisure to read correctly) you can if you want too. I have vowed to my boys I will never leave them behind, if ever the day came when I couldnt live here in Spain I would walk back to England if I had to with them alongside me for the journey.

A dog is for life, not just for Christmas or until it isnt convenient.

As for military people being discriminated against. On the one hand I can understand the breeders (good ones that is) being discriminatory but one should not judge too quickly but take ones time and judge each potential owner on an individual basis. Civvies are just as bad for dumping dogs. Believe you me I know this from experience.

Thanks to all who keep those of us who do not serve safe in our beds at night.
Often folk will complain how much the military costs them as tax payers, but come an invasion and boy do they want you around then.

Stay safe.
 

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My responses are in in purple

So astra... forgive me if I misunderstood your intentions of sharing your opinions. I respect just about everyone's opinions unless you are blatantly abusive to animals.

As for the child aspect of things, you don't believe a doberman puppy should be placed in a home with children. I don't want to draw lines in the sand about age when it would be acceptable, so lets just use babies or toddlers for example. What if a doberman owner becomes pregnant? Should that owner give up their doberman? I think that a owner who becomes pregnant and has a baby with a doberman in the home (not a puppy) would be more dangerous if the grown doberman had not been socialized with babies. A puppy placed in a home with a baby and/or toddlers would grow up with those children and be accustomed to them. I know of many families with small children who got there puppies from reputable breeders. I would never place a rescued doberman in a home with babies or toddlers. But, that's just my opinion.

Again, where did I ever state that I don't believe that a Doberman puppy should be placed in a home with children? That is not what I said. I know that there are people that have children who have acquired a Doberman puppy from a reputable breeder or rescue. I think that it would be safe to say that those homes are screened very carefully. What also needs to be taken into account is that a reputable breeder or rescue is going to provide lifetime support in regards to the dogs that they place and will be available to the owners should any issues arise.

"What if a doberman owner becomes pregnant? Should that owner give up their doberman?" Of course not but it happens all of the time. " I would never place a rescued doberman in a home with babies or toddlers. But, that's just my opinion." You are entiltled to your opinion but this statement isn't much different then what you are accusing me of saying. Reputable rescues carefully screen potential homes for their puppies/dogs. Some rescues have a policy where they will not adopt a dog of any age into a home with children under a certain age, period. However, there are some rescues that will consider homes with children and they screen those homes on an individual basis, taking many factors into account. Just because a puppy/dog ends up in the hands of a rescue does not deem them unadoptable to homes with children. There are plenty of owner turn ins that come from homes with children where their history is known, making them good candidates to be placed in homes with children.

I have a 8yo son and a baby on the way. I plan on lots of supervised socialization and the baby will never be with the doberman unsupervised. It will remain this way until he/she (we don't know yet, we're waiting until I get back home to find out the sex) is old enough to train with the dog and the dog respects him/her as an authority.

And as for the military aspect... I think this one is more difficult to respond to. The one fact is that most, if not all, posts have bans against certain 'dangerous' breeds including the doberman. If you live off post, you aren't restricted. However, some over seas duty stations will not allow dobermans period. I think the military aspect is something that breeders have to look hard into. I explained to my breeder my situation in some detain, outlining the next six to seven years of my career. I think that breeders much deal with service members on a case by case basis.

Anyway, I hope I didn't ruffle anyone's feathers. I've stayed out of forums for a while, but I thought I'd chime in on the military topic.

You didn't ruffle my feathers :)

The original thread from which my post was quoted from is a perfect example as to why great care should be taken before placing a puppy into a home with children and why reputable breeders and rescues are very selective before doing so. The puppy from that thread was not purchased from a reputable breeder. I can guarantee that a reputable breeder or rescue would've never placed a puppy in the original or second home, for SEVERAL reasons, especially when they were all combined together. Both would've been able to predict exactly what happened with that puppy before it ever happened. Because that puppy wasn't obtained from a reputable breeder, the owners never recieved any support nor was it ever an option to return that puppy to the breeder. This puppy was one of the lucky ones who did end up in the hands of a reputable rescue, where she will be evaluated properly before being placed into her 3rd home and hopefully forever home. Most stories do not end this way. Most of the dogs who end up in situations like this end up getting passed from one unexperienced home to another. When the once cute puppy grows into a dog that has never been properly trained and no one wants it anymore, it will end up in a shelter or a rescue will be contacted. This would be a totally avoidable situation if people would purchase dogs from reputable breeders or adopt from reputable rescues.

I am not a breeder (and never will be) nor do I operate my own rescue. I do not make the rules. However, if I did run my own rescue, I would screen all of my adopters very carefully, including but not limited to: military families, those with children, those not owning their own homes, those with unfenced yards, those who had never owned a dog before or who weren't experienced with the breed, etc. I would treat every situation individually and not be predjudiced to anyone or any circumstance.


And lastly, to all the rest of you that serve, have served, or love someone who serves, thank you.
Ditto
 

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Astra,

Well, I seem to have somewhat misunderstood your first quotation in the OP's post and your first post in this thread. It just seemed a little harsh towards owners or potential owners of dobermans with children. But given I didn't see the original thread, I probably took it a little out of context. So as in my first post, please forgive me.

As for my opinion about rescued dobermans in homes of small children... Well, it is merely that. My opinion. It's largely based on my dealings with the rescues in my area. Non off the rescues I found would place rescues in my home. And they gave me legitimate reasons why. Heck, one rescue wouldn't work with me because I was in the military. Maybe my opinion is wrong or at least not right for everyone. But I know it wouldn't work for me.

And don't get me wrong, I do believe that rescues and reputable breeders should look hard into the homes of those who would potentially raise their pups. And I respect them for it. Especially those home with small children and military homes.

Cheers for having a discussion in this thread as opposed to the shouting matches I've seen in others. I hope you are all having a wonderful weekend!!
 
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