DiRavallese in Ontario
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micdobe said:
If that is ment as a settle tip for "don't buy a dog from her" please pm me as to why.
If you simply mean, don't settle on the first breeder you see, don't worry. I am looking around. I'm interested in a euro dobe. So far I've met with Angella and Monaco Dobermans. I've also recently gotten responses from Gatehouse and Dobereich. I have also looked into Blitzkrieger out in BC, but decided against them.
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crxman321 said:
I'm sure she breeds great dogs. I think she has a pasion for the breed and that was one of the things I liked about her. I've heard from a few people that her dogs are very sharp, more suitable for police work then a home pet. I don't need or want that. Perhaps if some day in the future I'm into schutzund and looking for a serious prospect, I'll take another look at her.
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She also has a 2+ year waiting list and doesnt breed too often. She only sells to people who will meet with her in person(last i talked to her) as well.Zucker said:
"If that is ment as a settle tip for "don't buy a dog from her" please pm me as to why"
Why do you want a "European" Doberman? Buying one from one of those breeders isn't really getting a European dog, you'd have to import one. The reason I said that is I visited the website several times, was not impressed with the looks of what she was producing, was even less favorably impressed with her connection to von Ryan's Luxus, which is basically the Canadian version of Kimbertal, and she didn't seem to do anything with her dogs besides get some Canadian championships on them, which aren't that hard to get. Her main activity seemed to be breeding, which is always a red flag to me.
I encountered someone on the internet who bought a puppy from her, the puppy had temperament issues of the sharp/shy type, as best some others and I could tell over the internet. The owner was also not IMO qualified to deal with the dog's issues.
Why do you want a "European" Doberman? Buying one from one of those breeders isn't really getting a European dog, you'd have to import one. The reason I said that is I visited the website several times, was not impressed with the looks of what she was producing, was even less favorably impressed with her connection to von Ryan's Luxus, which is basically the Canadian version of Kimbertal, and she didn't seem to do anything with her dogs besides get some Canadian championships on them, which aren't that hard to get. Her main activity seemed to be breeding, which is always a red flag to me.
I encountered someone on the internet who bought a puppy from her, the puppy had temperament issues of the sharp/shy type, as best some others and I could tell over the internet. The owner was also not IMO qualified to deal with the dog's issues.
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I've known nothing but American dobes and only heard about how Euro dobes (and other breeds from Euro lines for that matter) make bad pets and tend to be aggressive, etc. Then I met my first Euro dobe and was completely blown away by his temperament and nature. I started learning more about Euro dobes and met a few of them and their people and each time it's only been a confirmation of how much more I like them in comparison to the American dobes. World of difference! I also like the look of the Euros much better, I don't like the dainty gazelle like dobes the Americans favour. I prefer the idea of more emphasis being put on testing of temperament and working ability of the breeding dogs as opposed to a focus on confirmation mostly.micdobe said:
If a European import is bred to a European import, to me, that's close enough. Even if technically the puppies are not born in europe and are not european, they are still of european lines. I can look through their pedigree and find out more about their ancestors' temperament traits, etc.
I'd be interested in hearing in more detail what was it you didn't like about the dogs. I'm still learning about the confirmation side of things. Could you give me sepcific examples of what you felt was "off" on what dogs?micdobe said:
I did ask her about the v.Ryan's Luxus thing. Her response was that they do their own thing, she does her own. She got a couple of dogs from them which she sais she researched and was happy with what she got. She's didn't comment on their breeding practices (the fact that they run their kennel like a commercial operation) but did comment that they breed their dogs for sharpness and for working purposes, hence these dogs don't necesarily work out in average pet homes and do become aggressive with inadequate handlers. As far as I can tell, currently I think only one of her breeding females can be traced back to vRL. She imports a lot of the breeding dogs from Europe. (Don't quote me on this exactly, I'm just going based on what I remember, you can always double check on her website and do a tally).
I do know she does obedience training with her dogs, and protection with at least one. When I met her, she was definetly the type of person that valued obedience in her dogs.
I can tell you that when I went to visit Monaco, they not only do nothing but conirmation shows (and breeding) with their dogs, they looked at me like as if I had 3 heads when I started to ask about any other activities they do with their dogs.
I'd love to hear more about that. Again, pm if you want, I'd much rather have the unedited version of the story.micdobe said:
You're getting undedited. Go to Network54, go to their directory, do a search for Dobermans and find the message board owned by the person who bough a di ravellese dog. I think she calls it Doberman Discussion, as distinct from the Doberman PINSCHER Discussion Forum. She will probably hysterically defend "her" breeder but maybe you can read between the lines.
First, you are saying things that aren't so and frankly I find them insulting since I have had American Dobermans for almost 30 years. There are fine boned overly refined Dobermans on both sides of the Atlantic, and there are heavy boned substantial Dobermans on both sides of the Atlantic. The bitch owned by the person I told you about is one of the "gazelle" types you mention in spite of having a European pedigree.
Second, the European dogs are shown very overweight so a lot of the time what is taken for substance is actually fat.
Without learning about the breed first you can't judge the "conformation" well.
Without having an open mind and actually learning about NA dogs you won't learn much.
All of the breeders you have mentioned, with the possible exception of Blitzkrieger don't work their supposed "working" dogs, they are riding on the coattails of the European breeders they got their dogs from. They and others in Canada and the US tout the "true German way" of temperament testing and "working" titles, but they don't do the same things themselvees. If just having ancestors with titles in the pedigree then the Germans wouldn't need to keep titling and testing, they could just say, well there are a lot of schutzhund IIIs in the pedigree so it must be all right. Do you see the contradiction there?
"European lines" have become a sales gimmick on the NA continent today just llike "superior sized", "warlock", and "king".
Even worse, most European countries don't require as much titling and temperament testing an Germany does and some don't require any at all.
For about 20 years I've been protesting the insults so casually flung at the breed I love with all that "dainty gazelles", "prancing show dogs", kind of talk, usually stated by someone who doesn't really know the breed. I could point you to pictures to illustrate but I'm tired of it. You have made up your mind what you want, but I don't think you know why you want it. Someone said Blitzkrieger dogs are too "serious". The other breeders dogs aren't serious enough. You either want a high drive dog who has to have a job to do, and has to do it, a lot, in order to be livable, or you don't. What happens when all the factors don't work out right in the European dogs is that you very often get the high drives along with weak nerves and that is the worst of all possible worlds. I cna't remember if you said you have had a Doberman before, but starting with a very high drive dog is not the best way to start.
Personally, I think "enough" drive to do the job of the breed, is enough, without having the overload. I've had it, and don't want it again, I've seen it in other dogs. I haven't had the experience of meeting a European dog who made me fall in love with its temperament. One of the hardest Dobermans I've ever known was European, and the other hardest Doberman I've known was American. I wouldn't have been afraid to walk down a dark alley with either one of them. The difference was that I wouldn't want to live with the European one on a bet and I would with the American one.
What my point is to you tho is that first you should find out exactly what it is you want, the things you've said contain misapprehension that can cause problems. Then find a breeder to meet your realistic expectations. If nothing else look at the websites of breeders like Cara and Adlercrest, go to DobermanPages and look at the Casino dogs, then compare what they look like to the dogs on the sites you mentioned. If you can't see the difference then I guess appearance doesn't matter to you so that's all right. But as for temperament if the breeders aren't aware of it and testing for it and breeding for it then the European dogs are no better in that regard than the NA dogs, even tho you think they are, you think just having a "euro" pedigree is good enough. It isn't.
First, you are saying things that aren't so and frankly I find them insulting since I have had American Dobermans for almost 30 years. There are fine boned overly refined Dobermans on both sides of the Atlantic, and there are heavy boned substantial Dobermans on both sides of the Atlantic. The bitch owned by the person I told you about is one of the "gazelle" types you mention in spite of having a European pedigree.
Second, the European dogs are shown very overweight so a lot of the time what is taken for substance is actually fat.
Without learning about the breed first you can't judge the "conformation" well.
Without having an open mind and actually learning about NA dogs you won't learn much.
All of the breeders you have mentioned, with the possible exception of Blitzkrieger don't work their supposed "working" dogs, they are riding on the coattails of the European breeders they got their dogs from. They and others in Canada and the US tout the "true German way" of temperament testing and "working" titles, but they don't do the same things themselvees. If just having ancestors with titles in the pedigree then the Germans wouldn't need to keep titling and testing, they could just say, well there are a lot of schutzhund IIIs in the pedigree so it must be all right. Do you see the contradiction there?
"European lines" have become a sales gimmick on the NA continent today just llike "superior sized", "warlock", and "king".
Even worse, most European countries don't require as much titling and temperament testing an Germany does and some don't require any at all.
For about 20 years I've been protesting the insults so casually flung at the breed I love with all that "dainty gazelles", "prancing show dogs", kind of talk, usually stated by someone who doesn't really know the breed. I could point you to pictures to illustrate but I'm tired of it. You have made up your mind what you want, but I don't think you know why you want it. Someone said Blitzkrieger dogs are too "serious". The other breeders dogs aren't serious enough. You either want a high drive dog who has to have a job to do, and has to do it, a lot, in order to be livable, or you don't. What happens when all the factors don't work out right in the European dogs is that you very often get the high drives along with weak nerves and that is the worst of all possible worlds. I cna't remember if you said you have had a Doberman before, but starting with a very high drive dog is not the best way to start.
Personally, I think "enough" drive to do the job of the breed, is enough, without having the overload. I've had it, and don't want it again, I've seen it in other dogs. I haven't had the experience of meeting a European dog who made me fall in love with its temperament. One of the hardest Dobermans I've ever known was European, and the other hardest Doberman I've known was American. I wouldn't have been afraid to walk down a dark alley with either one of them. The difference was that I wouldn't want to live with the European one on a bet and I would with the American one.
What my point is to you tho is that first you should find out exactly what it is you want, the things you've said contain misapprehension that can cause problems. Then find a breeder to meet your realistic expectations. If nothing else look at the websites of breeders like Cara and Adlercrest, go to DobermanPages and look at the Casino dogs, then compare what they look like to the dogs on the sites you mentioned. If you can't see the difference then I guess appearance doesn't matter to you so that's all right. But as for temperament if the breeders aren't aware of it and testing for it and breeding for it then the European dogs are no better in that regard than the NA dogs, even tho you think they are, you think just having a "euro" pedigree is good enough. It isn't.
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Wow, you can bet you are going to get a huge argument about Euro vs. North American Dobermanns on any forum Zucker. It seems some people are very much opposed to Euro Dobes in North America, I know all too well!
Because of some cross-posted hearsay, I feel that in the past you and I got off on the wrong foot. I would like to put that behind us and deal with the real issues of breed type. I also feel that if you truly want to learn about the two strains of Dobermanns, EU and NA, that you should visit as many breeders with either type so that you can get a real feel for the breed. Now I know that these forum topics can get out of control sometimes, I am trusting that this one will not.
Believe me in saying that you cannot go by someone's website to determine if they are or are not a good breeder. It can leave you with a first impression, but seeing is believing IMO.
Angela is a nice girl and I feel her heart is in the right place with this breed. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with all her ideas and practices, or that she and I are aiming for the exact same ideal or goal in the end. I am just saying that she should not be judged for owning a VRL dog or having a single reported issue with this dog that was mentioned on the other forum. In fact, those things are best learned by the actual individuals involved and not by everyone else's inflated version of events.
Once again, I know all too well what happens once everyone tosses in their 2 cents. Truths become stretched until there is no relation to the original topic anymore. My motto is "Believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see".
As for getting a true unbiased opinion about Euro Dobes, you are not going to get this from a North American breeder/enthusiast. That would be like calling up Pepsi Cola and asking them if they think Coke is a better product. We all have our preferences there, and we are all entitled. LOL, wouldn't expect people to fight over such a thing, but it happens.
I love both the Euro Dobe and the North American Dobe. I appreciate the fancy outlines of the N.A. dobe and feel that their temperament is better suited to various homes then the European Dobermann. I often times refer people on to get a N.A. Dobe, so please don't anyone ever accuse me of bashing the N.A. Dobe.
F.Y.I. at one of the shows last year I was speaking with a very well known North American breeder. She referred to the N.A. type as being "Fancy Bambies". That was the first time I ever heard someone refer to this term. It was a good description and it was obviously not used negatively.
For me personally, being a trainer, working with this breed from both sides and owning Dobes for over 20 years. I personally appreciate the qualities of the lines I own. I have been so head over heels deep into the Euro lines for the last 16 years that for me to offer you advice at all on a N.A. pedigree would be about as natural as me advising you on a poodle's pedigree. I simply do not know the lines, so unless I am going to research them for several generations myself, I will not delve into pretending to know the weaknesses or strengths of a particular pedigree.
I have always found it hilarious to hear the advices given from those who have little to no experience with the Euro strain. Especially when placing full judgments on the failing of one or two dogs when there are hundreds to be considered.
It is extremely offensive to refer to European breeding as a "gimmick". This cannot be applied to all Euro breeders and to do so is an explicate display of ignorance. Comes off to me as the typical Euro breeder bashing. Although there are always going to be people who look to capitalize within a hot market. These individuals are pretty easy to identify within the BYB category anyhow, no matter what lines they have.
Here is the thing. Dobermanns originated in Europe! I am not going to get into the big spiel of it all, but over the last 60 years there have been tremendous changes in the breed in North America, and also in Europe. The European Dobermann is measured on their working ability more heavily then the North American Dobermans are. This means that as a rule, the drives and working temperament is going to be somewhat higher in the Euro lines.
Of course I am going to stereotype here, because there are most definitely exceptions to the rule. I have seen some pretty low drive Euro dobes and I have seen some pretty tough N.A. dobes too!
Breeding Dobes is complex, each breeder will look for various traits that they personally appreciate in this breed. Hopefully they will be geared to maintaining a complete Dobe, healthy, beautiful, and who can still work while being a safe and stable members of society. This is not an easy feat for any breeder who is actually dedicated to "all" aspects of the Dobermann breed.
As a behaviourist and being that I started into this breed 20 years ago with rescues. I have experience with both strains of Dobes. Sure I have seen some sharp and nasty characters in the breed, and guess what all? They have not all been European!! So breed temperament is not so simply defined as being lumped into a "Euro" or "N.A." category.
There are strengths and weaknesses to be considered for either strain and not everyone will want the same thing in their home. For me, I am very happy with what I have in my living room today. Stable, healthy, well temperamented Dobermanns that were based from European bloodlines. I would rather have more temperament and be able to work with it, then to have no nerves which I can do very little with. I always say it is like having long hair vs. short hair. You can cut long hair as short as you want, but you can never make short hair longer. I know, I know, someone will like to attack my stupid analogy. But I think you get the gist of it.
Every breeder must remember that with every good trait that you double-up on in a gene pool, you are also doubling up on faults (as no dog is perfect). For every negative trait you remove from the temperament, you are going to be removing other desirable traits as well. I am not about to try and educate everyone over a forum on my philosophies and experience working with temperament. However this is my specific area of experience.
I have heard complaints over and over about how small the gene pool is for the Dobermanns in North America (or any country for that matter). Ironically though we are one of the only countries that is so unwilling to invite new blood from other countries?? Look at the European Dobe pedigree, you will see dogs from Russia, France, Germany, Czech, Hungary, Australia, etc. etc. etc. A good dog gets around, and a good dog is worth traveling for!!
I would think that for this very narrow gene pool, one would be excited to invite a new strain into their lines that actually lines back to a very distant ancestor while adding 50% new genetic information. This sort of outcross can only have a positive effect on the outcome of the breed's over-all health and immune system. Conformation is not usually affected too drastically with only one generation of straight outcrossing either.
Last time I looked it was the dogs that were actually contributing to the gene pool, so why do people get so worked-up about who owns what dog? What business is it of yours if it is not your dog? Find what you like and stick with it, but don't bash others for having their own taste and style.
Because of some cross-posted hearsay, I feel that in the past you and I got off on the wrong foot. I would like to put that behind us and deal with the real issues of breed type. I also feel that if you truly want to learn about the two strains of Dobermanns, EU and NA, that you should visit as many breeders with either type so that you can get a real feel for the breed. Now I know that these forum topics can get out of control sometimes, I am trusting that this one will not.
Believe me in saying that you cannot go by someone's website to determine if they are or are not a good breeder. It can leave you with a first impression, but seeing is believing IMO.
Angela is a nice girl and I feel her heart is in the right place with this breed. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with all her ideas and practices, or that she and I are aiming for the exact same ideal or goal in the end. I am just saying that she should not be judged for owning a VRL dog or having a single reported issue with this dog that was mentioned on the other forum. In fact, those things are best learned by the actual individuals involved and not by everyone else's inflated version of events.
Once again, I know all too well what happens once everyone tosses in their 2 cents. Truths become stretched until there is no relation to the original topic anymore. My motto is "Believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see".
As for getting a true unbiased opinion about Euro Dobes, you are not going to get this from a North American breeder/enthusiast. That would be like calling up Pepsi Cola and asking them if they think Coke is a better product. We all have our preferences there, and we are all entitled. LOL, wouldn't expect people to fight over such a thing, but it happens.
I love both the Euro Dobe and the North American Dobe. I appreciate the fancy outlines of the N.A. dobe and feel that their temperament is better suited to various homes then the European Dobermann. I often times refer people on to get a N.A. Dobe, so please don't anyone ever accuse me of bashing the N.A. Dobe.
F.Y.I. at one of the shows last year I was speaking with a very well known North American breeder. She referred to the N.A. type as being "Fancy Bambies". That was the first time I ever heard someone refer to this term. It was a good description and it was obviously not used negatively.
For me personally, being a trainer, working with this breed from both sides and owning Dobes for over 20 years. I personally appreciate the qualities of the lines I own. I have been so head over heels deep into the Euro lines for the last 16 years that for me to offer you advice at all on a N.A. pedigree would be about as natural as me advising you on a poodle's pedigree. I simply do not know the lines, so unless I am going to research them for several generations myself, I will not delve into pretending to know the weaknesses or strengths of a particular pedigree.
I have always found it hilarious to hear the advices given from those who have little to no experience with the Euro strain. Especially when placing full judgments on the failing of one or two dogs when there are hundreds to be considered.
It is extremely offensive to refer to European breeding as a "gimmick". This cannot be applied to all Euro breeders and to do so is an explicate display of ignorance. Comes off to me as the typical Euro breeder bashing. Although there are always going to be people who look to capitalize within a hot market. These individuals are pretty easy to identify within the BYB category anyhow, no matter what lines they have.
Here is the thing. Dobermanns originated in Europe! I am not going to get into the big spiel of it all, but over the last 60 years there have been tremendous changes in the breed in North America, and also in Europe. The European Dobermann is measured on their working ability more heavily then the North American Dobermans are. This means that as a rule, the drives and working temperament is going to be somewhat higher in the Euro lines.
Of course I am going to stereotype here, because there are most definitely exceptions to the rule. I have seen some pretty low drive Euro dobes and I have seen some pretty tough N.A. dobes too!
Breeding Dobes is complex, each breeder will look for various traits that they personally appreciate in this breed. Hopefully they will be geared to maintaining a complete Dobe, healthy, beautiful, and who can still work while being a safe and stable members of society. This is not an easy feat for any breeder who is actually dedicated to "all" aspects of the Dobermann breed.
As a behaviourist and being that I started into this breed 20 years ago with rescues. I have experience with both strains of Dobes. Sure I have seen some sharp and nasty characters in the breed, and guess what all? They have not all been European!! So breed temperament is not so simply defined as being lumped into a "Euro" or "N.A." category.
There are strengths and weaknesses to be considered for either strain and not everyone will want the same thing in their home. For me, I am very happy with what I have in my living room today. Stable, healthy, well temperamented Dobermanns that were based from European bloodlines. I would rather have more temperament and be able to work with it, then to have no nerves which I can do very little with. I always say it is like having long hair vs. short hair. You can cut long hair as short as you want, but you can never make short hair longer. I know, I know, someone will like to attack my stupid analogy. But I think you get the gist of it.
Every breeder must remember that with every good trait that you double-up on in a gene pool, you are also doubling up on faults (as no dog is perfect). For every negative trait you remove from the temperament, you are going to be removing other desirable traits as well. I am not about to try and educate everyone over a forum on my philosophies and experience working with temperament. However this is my specific area of experience.
I have heard complaints over and over about how small the gene pool is for the Dobermanns in North America (or any country for that matter). Ironically though we are one of the only countries that is so unwilling to invite new blood from other countries?? Look at the European Dobe pedigree, you will see dogs from Russia, France, Germany, Czech, Hungary, Australia, etc. etc. etc. A good dog gets around, and a good dog is worth traveling for!!
I would think that for this very narrow gene pool, one would be excited to invite a new strain into their lines that actually lines back to a very distant ancestor while adding 50% new genetic information. This sort of outcross can only have a positive effect on the outcome of the breed's over-all health and immune system. Conformation is not usually affected too drastically with only one generation of straight outcrossing either.
Last time I looked it was the dogs that were actually contributing to the gene pool, so why do people get so worked-up about who owns what dog? What business is it of yours if it is not your dog? Find what you like and stick with it, but don't bash others for having their own taste and style.
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LOL, you mean just like the US and Canada, where there is absolutely no mandatory health testing or title requirements. Just one registered dog allowed to cover another. Ethics are either possessed or not and it is strictly left-up to each individual to do the right thing for the breed. It is this way of breeding that has led to the "Warlocks and Kings". These terms are never used to describe a Dobermann in Europe!micdobe said:
May I be so bold as to ask you how many European Dobermanns you have met and from what lines they were from? There is a difference in bloodlines, like night and day when working temperament, hardness, drives, and fighting spirit is concerned.micdobe said:
A well-bred European Dobermann is a capable, devoted, social and loving family companion. But they do have more get-up and go, this is true. However this is not in any way a reflection of bad temperament when referring to the Euro strain in general.
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Hi Zucker,Zucker said:
I might have missed something, or your email or inquiry. Unless of course it is under another name?? Because I do not have any correspondence from you recently, nor do I recall giving any recent responses. I think you and I had some brief correspondence last year about a pup??
Blitzkrieger has strong working lines and only places her dogs in serious working homes.
Monaco, Well, I think you saw all there was to see there. I have my opinions about what I have seen there, but I will keep it to myself. Falls under the "if you cannot say something good, say nothing at all". Words we all should live by
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There are a few breeders that have Von Ryans Luxus in there breeder program or the prodigy of them. Dobereich if memory serves me right which it does you are one of them. I would also like to say Angela is a nice gal and has been pulling away from Von Ryan for awhile now. There are many gorgeous dobes across the world, the main thing is to keep them healthy in all facets of life.
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As for getting a true unbiased opinion about Euro Dobes, you are not going to get this from a North American breeder/enthusiast. That would be like calling up Pepsi Cola and asking them if they think Coke is a better product. ** Aren't you a Euro supporter? Don't you find something wrong with getting a true unbiased opinion from you too? **
We all have our preferences there, and we are all entitled. LOL, wouldn't expect people to fight over such a thing, but it happens. Of course I am going to stereotype here, because there are most definitely exceptions to the rule. I have seen some pretty low drive Euro dobes and I have seen some pretty tough N.A. dobes too! **There are plenty of show Dobermans with bone and substance from NA. You say Euro bashing is bad. I am also tired of individuals bashing NA Dobermans for being low drive and weak and gazelle looking. That is not so. Your exceptions to the rule comment is also wrong as it implies that most NA are low drive. **
I have been so head over heels deep into the Euro lines for the last 16 years that for me to offer you advice at all on a N.A. pedigree would be about as natural as me advising you on a poodle's pedigree. I simply do not know the lines, so unless I am going to research them for several generations myself, I will not delve into pretending to know the weaknesses or strengths of a particular pedigree. I have always found it hilarious to hear the advices given from those who have little to no experience with the Euro strain. Especially when placing full judgments on the failing of one or two dogs when there are hundreds to be considered. ** Couldn't have said it better. You cannot fully judge the NA Dobe either, since you haven't even been involved much with them for the past 16 years you have spent head of heels with Euro Dobes. Since you say your knowledge of the NA is the same of your pedigree knowledge on a poodle, I don't think you can make broad judgments about NA Dobes either.
I agree with Micdobe 100%. And there are many people are taken with the Euro Dobe without do much research. Many commercial breeders are now using that as a gimmick. Even if you don't, you must admit there are MANY that do, a simple google search will reveal that as a fact. They base their entire marketing scheme on the fact they own "superior" Euro Dobermans. It is really quite sad that people actually fall for this. I am not saying you are one of those, but those types have risen in popularity.
We all have our preferences there, and we are all entitled. LOL, wouldn't expect people to fight over such a thing, but it happens. Of course I am going to stereotype here, because there are most definitely exceptions to the rule. I have seen some pretty low drive Euro dobes and I have seen some pretty tough N.A. dobes too! **There are plenty of show Dobermans with bone and substance from NA. You say Euro bashing is bad. I am also tired of individuals bashing NA Dobermans for being low drive and weak and gazelle looking. That is not so. Your exceptions to the rule comment is also wrong as it implies that most NA are low drive. **
I have been so head over heels deep into the Euro lines for the last 16 years that for me to offer you advice at all on a N.A. pedigree would be about as natural as me advising you on a poodle's pedigree. I simply do not know the lines, so unless I am going to research them for several generations myself, I will not delve into pretending to know the weaknesses or strengths of a particular pedigree. I have always found it hilarious to hear the advices given from those who have little to no experience with the Euro strain. Especially when placing full judgments on the failing of one or two dogs when there are hundreds to be considered. ** Couldn't have said it better. You cannot fully judge the NA Dobe either, since you haven't even been involved much with them for the past 16 years you have spent head of heels with Euro Dobes. Since you say your knowledge of the NA is the same of your pedigree knowledge on a poodle, I don't think you can make broad judgments about NA Dobes either.
I agree with Micdobe 100%. And there are many people are taken with the Euro Dobe without do much research. Many commercial breeders are now using that as a gimmick. Even if you don't, you must admit there are MANY that do, a simple google search will reveal that as a fact. They base their entire marketing scheme on the fact they own "superior" Euro Dobermans. It is really quite sad that people actually fall for this. I am not saying you are one of those, but those types have risen in popularity.
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I don't know any good American or Canadian breeders that favour "gazelle like dobes."Zucker said:
I think one phenomena that plays into this, especially in Canada, is that the Dobermans we see in the ring are often puppies. As discussed before, it's relatively easy to finish a Canadian championship and many Dobermans are seen in the ring and finished their championships by the time they are a year old. I think of my own dogs that are usually finished by the time they are 10 months old - that is the picture people must have them of them in their mind, and often the pictures on my website would reflect that as well since I generally stop showing my dogs once they attain the championship. The last 2 males I finished were done by the time they were 9 1/2 or 10 months old. I suppose if people think of them, they think of a dog that was probably about 75 lbs at the time (dainty?). They don't know them as the 87-90 lb dogs they became when fully mature (unless they are watching the obedience ring later, and most don't. LOL)
The fact of the matter is that in Canada, especially in this particular area of Ontario, the dogs we see in the ring are usually puppies. Unless one attends specialty shows where a few more specials may be shown, you usually haven't seen many good mature representatives of what is out there in people's homes. That may even be the case in the US depending on the entry. You want to see the true state of the breed in north America in maturity, look to the specials class at the US national.
Someone else also pointed out that the level of fitness in north American Dobermans, in general, is also much higher than we see in Euro conformation shows, IMO. A dog isn't "dainty" just because it's fit.
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How about you just give me the 411micdobe said:
There is a Doberman Corner Discussion group on Network54, is that the one? I don't want to have to sign up for another forum, plus that specific one states "not accepting applications at this time". Pointing out one person who is having problems with a dog they got from a breeder does not necessarily say something bad about the breeder. I'm sure you can find countless examples of this with any breeder of any breed. For some reason or other, some times the home the puppy was sent to does not turn out to be a right one. I could just as easily find a lazy lab owner who's lab is destroying their house, that doesn't mean that the breeder of the dog is producing neurotic dogs. Nature vs nurture. Same dog could have turned out amazingly in the hands of a different person, so I don't like to automatically believe that just because some one is having problems with their dog that means there's something wrong with their breeder.
There is no need here to feel insulted. It's not as if I knew your children personally and was saying bad things about them. If you feel the statements I have made are incorrect, simply state your opinion, no need to get emotional with me. I like to think that I am in general a rational and open minded person. I am also in no way saying that Am dobes are some how lesser creatures. I am simply stating my personal preference based on my experiences with both sides so far.micdobe said:
I have heard that before from Euro enthusiasts who were upset about that fact.micdobe said:
Hence I have said, pick a picture and tell me specifically what's wrong with the dog's conirmation. I'm definetly eager to learn this aspect of the breed. I have a friend in germany who breeds dobes. I showed him one of Angela's early dogs and he was pretty much disgusted with the dog's confirmation. He told me point by point what was wrong and why. I showed him 2 more dogs who she was planning on breeding recently and he really liked both of their confirmations and felt they had good pedigrees.micdobe said:
Like I said, I am open minded, I have stated my personal preference. I would very much love to learn more about the NA dogs if you're willing to share your knowledge and opinions. I just don't want to hear the grade school level we're better then them crap. Both strains have their upsides and downsides. Neither is perfect. It's like trying to argue what makes a better car, a sedan or a convertible, without taking into consideration the driver's individual needs.micdobe said:
I totally agree with you on that one. That was very disapointing to me when I started looking in more detail into these breeders. One especially had a very hollier then thou attitude about this and practically felt insulted I had asked about how can they be so certain of their dog's working ability if all they do with them is confirmation. Sad indeed, and yes, ironicly contradicting the very idea which they were selling.micdobe said:
I do still feel comfortable if both parents were imported, have been titled (not just in confirmation) and have behind them pedigrees full of dogs who have proven themselves in their work. I realize that I am playing the odds and the puppy might not be the best working prospect, but chances are the odds are still more in my favour as opposed to a dog which came from a breeding program that does not put any emphasis at all on a dog's working ability. Even if that puppy is from a consecutive generation, I'd still have some faith in it.
I do believe that to have a great dog, you yourself need to put a lot of work into it. Genetics is only a part of it. The way you raise the puppy will have a much more dominant effect on what sort of dog the pup will grow up into. You can't guarantee yourself an amazing dog just by going to a good breeder if you then screw up the puppy's upbringing. .
You could just as easilly say that "Champion" or "son/descendant of" to a degree all of these are nothing but sales gimmicks in certain people's hands. And even if some Euro countries don't have as strict rules about breeding as Germany, many of them still surpass NA.micdobe said:
I certanly don't think that as obviously within the Euro dobes there certainly are bad apples. I have no plan to simply jump on board with the first breeder I see proclaiming Euro lines.micdobe said:
Again, I think it would be pointless to debate which strain of dobes is better. I think the focal point of this sort of discussions should be the ultimate purpose of the dog. I personally prefer the dogs with high drives. Yes they can be more challenging at times, but they can also be such a pleasure to work with once you get things right with them. I find it a lot more frustrating trying to build up drive in a dog that doesn't have much to begin with. I'd much rather be working with a dog that needs to be held back and tought control. Don't ask me why, but I tend to gravitate towards the nutheads in the bunch. As another example I also prefer the labs that come from the hunting lines. These nuts are definetly too much for some average people to handle, that doesn't make them bad dogs.
From my personal experience so far, working intemately with a few NA dobes and one Euro who in fact from what I've learned so far is not the gratest example of what a Euro should be and does exibit the weak nerves, I much prefered without a doubt the Euro. It's hard to explain it in words, but he just seemed like a more concentrated dobe package. Almost like comparing an average dobe to an average lab, that's what the difference felt like between the Euro and the NA's I knew. Simillar, but different ball game. Now before you get upset and insulted, I'm not saying at all that that's what all the NA dogs are like. I'm simply basing my personal opinion on my personal experiences.
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