Does any one here have contact with Angela? I wanted to enquire about her upcomming litters. I've emailed and called and haven't heard back.
micdobe said:You might want to check around more before committing.
crxman321 said:I also looked at Blitzkrieger at first I was intrested but people told me some things and After a second look at the site i had some doubts.
She also has a 2+ year waiting list and doesnt breed too often. She only sells to people who will meet with her in person(last i talked to her) as well.Zucker said:I'm sure she breeds great dogs. I think she has a pasion for the breed and that was one of the things I liked about her. I've heard from a few people that her dogs are very sharp, more suitable for police work then a home pet. I don't need or want that. Perhaps if some day in the future I'm into schutzund and looking for a serious prospect, I'll take another look at her.
I've known nothing but American dobes and only heard about how Euro dobes (and other breeds from Euro lines for that matter) make bad pets and tend to be aggressive, etc. Then I met my first Euro dobe and was completely blown away by his temperament and nature. I started learning more about Euro dobes and met a few of them and their people and each time it's only been a confirmation of how much more I like them in comparison to the American dobes. World of difference! I also like the look of the Euros much better, I don't like the dainty gazelle like dobes the Americans favour. I prefer the idea of more emphasis being put on testing of temperament and working ability of the breeding dogs as opposed to a focus on confirmation mostly.micdobe said:Why do you want a "European" Doberman? Buying one from one of those breeders isn't really getting a European dog, you'd have to import one.
I'd be interested in hearing in more detail what was it you didn't like about the dogs. I'm still learning about the confirmation side of things. Could you give me sepcific examples of what you felt was "off" on what dogs?micdobe said:The reason I said that is I visited the website several times, was not impressed with the looks of what she was producing, was even less favorably impressed with her connection to von Ryan's Luxus, which is basically the Canadian version of Kimbertal, and she didn't seem to do anything with her dogs besides get some Canadian championships on them, which aren't that hard to get. Her main activity seemed to be breeding, which is always a red flag to me.
I'd love to hear more about that. Again, pm if you want, I'd much rather have the unedited version of the story.micdobe said:I encountered someone on the internet who bought a puppy from her, the puppy had temperament issues of the sharp/shy type, as best some others and I could tell over the internet. The owner was also not IMO qualified to deal with the dog's issues.
LOL, you mean just like the US and Canada, where there is absolutely no mandatory health testing or title requirements. Just one registered dog allowed to cover another. Ethics are either possessed or not and it is strictly left-up to each individual to do the right thing for the breed. It is this way of breeding that has led to the "Warlocks and Kings". These terms are never used to describe a Dobermann in Europe!micdobe said:"European lines" have become a sales gimmick on the NA continent today just like "superior sized", "warlock", and "king".
Even worse, most European countries don't require as much titling and temperament testing an Germany does and some don't require any at all..
May I be so bold as to ask you how many European Dobermanns you have met and from what lines they were from? There is a difference in bloodlines, like night and day when working temperament, hardness, drives, and fighting spirit is concerned.micdobe said:I haven't had the experience of meeting a European dog who made me fall in love with its temperament.
Hi Zucker,Zucker said:I've also recently gotten responses from Gatehouse and Dobereich. I have also looked into Blitzkrieger out in BC, but decided against them.
I don't know any good American or Canadian breeders that favour "gazelle like dobes."Zucker said:I don't like the dainty gazelle like dobes the Americans favour.
How about you just give me the 411 There is a Doberman Corner Discussion group on Network54, is that the one? I don't want to have to sign up for another forum, plus that specific one states "not accepting applications at this time".micdobe said:You're getting undedited. Go to Network54, go to their directory, do a search for Dobermans and find the message board owned by the person who bough a di ravellese dog. I think she calls it Doberman Discussion, as distinct from the Doberman PINSCHER Discussion Forum. She will probably hysterically defend "her" breeder but maybe you can read between the lines.
There is no need here to feel insulted. It's not as if I knew your children personally and was saying bad things about them. If you feel the statements I have made are incorrect, simply state your opinion, no need to get emotional with me. I like to think that I am in general a rational and open minded person. I am also in no way saying that Am dobes are some how lesser creatures. I am simply stating my personal preference based on my experiences with both sides so far.micdobe said:First, you are saying things that aren't so and frankly I find them insulting since I have had American Dobermans for almost 30 years.
I have heard that before from Euro enthusiasts who were upset about that fact.micdobe said:Second, the European dogs are shown very overweight so a lot of the time what is taken for substance is actually fat.
Hence I have said, pick a picture and tell me specifically what's wrong with the dog's conirmation. I'm definetly eager to learn this aspect of the breed. I have a friend in germany who breeds dobes. I showed him one of Angela's early dogs and he was pretty much disgusted with the dog's confirmation. He told me point by point what was wrong and why. I showed him 2 more dogs who she was planning on breeding recently and he really liked both of their confirmations and felt they had good pedigrees.micdobe said:Without learning about the breed first you can't judge the "conformation" well.
Like I said, I am open minded, I have stated my personal preference. I would very much love to learn more about the NA dogs if you're willing to share your knowledge and opinions. I just don't want to hear the grade school level we're better then them crap. Both strains have their upsides and downsides. Neither is perfect. It's like trying to argue what makes a better car, a sedan or a convertible, without taking into consideration the driver's individual needs.micdobe said:Without having an open mind and actually learning about NA dogs you won't learn much.
I totally agree with you on that one. That was very disapointing to me when I started looking in more detail into these breeders. One especially had a very hollier then thou attitude about this and practically felt insulted I had asked about how can they be so certain of their dog's working ability if all they do with them is confirmation. Sad indeed, and yes, ironicly contradicting the very idea which they were selling.micdobe said:All of the breeders you have mentioned, with the possible exception of Blitzkrieger don't work their supposed "working" dogs, they are riding on the coattails of the European breeders they got their dogs from. They and others in Canada and the US tout the "true German way" of temperament testing and "working" titles, but they don't do the same things themselvees. If just having ancestors with titles in the pedigree then the Germans wouldn't need to keep titling and testing, they could just say, well there are a lot of schutzhund IIIs in the pedigree so it must be all right. Do you see the contradiction there?
You could just as easilly say that "Champion" or "son/descendant of" to a degree all of these are nothing but sales gimmicks in certain people's hands. And even if some Euro countries don't have as strict rules about breeding as Germany, many of them still surpass NA.micdobe said:"European lines" have become a sales gimmick on the NA continent today just llike "superior sized", "warlock", and "king".
Even worse, most European countries don't require as much titling and temperament testing an Germany does and some don't require any at all.
I certanly don't think that as obviously within the Euro dobes there certainly are bad apples. I have no plan to simply jump on board with the first breeder I see proclaiming Euro lines.micdobe said:you think just having a "euro" pedigree is good enough. It isn't.