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Detective needed for sudden death

1345 Views 56 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  Nikko1234
Female Dobe died Friday. No warning. No conditions. Best I can summarize is. Overweight. Outside many times a day
Found an armadillo and was extremely motivated to kill it but didn’t. Extremely exhausted but ok
That was 3:00 am. Ate dinner ok. Nothing further. 6:00 was observed laying down awkwardly with tongue out and full of dirt and could not stand. Breathing at 75. Warm day but only 88 degrees. Water available always. Laid with her to comfort and used cool water to reduce temp
Got breathing to 35-40. A few discharges if diarhea still no control of rear legs
No foaming. Lead to convulsions shortly then to very significant seizures and convulsion of whole body
Eyes glazed in and out
While trying for emergency vet she reduced breathing to shallow while on phone she moaned loudly maybe 20 times and then passed
No real struggle but just went. At least she died in her favorite huge yard. I am a real mess so I thought to ask for opinions
Stroke? Aneurism? Arithmeias? I inspected every inch of yard and no poison toads as it acted like toxic or poisonous event. No other signs
What would cause sudden and then convictions and then die?
Thank for help her other two boy friends also Dobes are equally at a loss
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So sorry for your loss. Might be heart. I have done an autopsy in the past, just so I know.
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So sorry for your loss. Might be heart. I have done an autopsy in the past, just so I know.
Thanks
First off, this is so traumatic, and I'm so very sorry. I couldn't read through all the displayed symptoms because a lot of it was what happened when my dog had her first heart attack...and I'm still very raw from all of it.

When were your last echocardiograms and holters? This is a breed VERY prone to cardiac issues - it's in every line - and we encourage annual holters and echos from the age of 2. Undiagnosed arrhythmic DCM will do this.

A necropsy isn't a bad idea, though they can be expensive. If you bought this dog from a breeder, report the death to them.
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Sounds like DCM which is very common in Dobermans. I'd get a necropsy just in case.
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NIkko, so sorry for your loss. :(

You didn't say how old you gal was? DCM can strike very young Dobes as many accounts on DT have documented. Like Falnfenix said, as I was reading through your account, I actually started reliving the trauma from our girl's sudden demise from DCM, after barking at a possum in backyard. In our case, our girl was almost 11 y/o and already diagnosed with DCM and in CHF for 6 mos. The common symptom in both our previous Dobes demise was back leg weakness and rear collapse plus loss of bladder. Vet said this was due to inadequate blood supply from heart during cardiac events, rear legs being the being the furthest distance, so would be impacted first.

Did your girl exhibit and pre-cursers to her demise in previous weeks/months, such as reluctance to walk long distances? Our girl did but our previous vet mis-diagnosed as arthritis over a year before her passing. Final stages were signaled by coughing at night, then abdominal fluid buildup from CHF that cause sudden weight gain. All this required cardiac & diuretic meds to reduce/ control effects and help delay the inevitable. :(
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NIkko, so sorry for your loss. :(

You didn't say how old you gal was? DCM can strike very young Dobes as many accounts on DT have documented. Like Falnfenix said, as I was reading through your account, I actually started reliving the trauma from our girl's sudden demise from DCM, after barking at a possum in backyard. In our case, our girl was almost 11 y/o and already diagnosed with DCM and in CHF for 6 mos. The common symptom in both our previous Dobes demise was back leg weakness and rear collapse plus loss of bladder. Vet said this was due to inadequate blood supply from heart during cardiac events, rear legs being the being the furthest distance, so would be impacted first.

Did your girl exhibit and pre-cursers to her demise in previous weeks/months, such as reluctance to walk long distances? Our girl did but our previous vet mis-diagnosed as arthritis over a year before her passing. Final stages were signaled by coughing at night, then abdominal fluid buildup from CHF that cause sudden weight gain. All this required cardiac & diuretic meds to reduce/ control effects and help delay the inevitable. :(
Thank you for your time to reply. Very bad time we all miss her in our wheel of life this morning. The boys are very restless
A little research show dad was not tested by Kimbertal but bred a lot of litters
Mother was an run of mill on breeder loan program of thiers
Zarina as of late would got out but run to center of yard and lay down. She sometimes would exhibit a reluctance to come in promptly
Ate fine and tried to control weight which with the new boys she did reduce running with them
Now the boys cannot be together from SSA
So we were working it out with her babysitting one at a time
The major scene with the armadillo was a trigger that had her overworked and max stressed to get it. She didn’t but it caused a suspected over stress. At 3:00 am
She went down about 6:00 pm same day but did act normal and had a small aft meal
Now that I reflect her legs went and her mid section was blown up quite a bit when I wrapped her
The convulsions were not expected and rather unnerving
It went to a shallow unflavored breathing while I was right there trying to find vet help
These vets are such prima donnas that no one was available on a late Friday. Called 6
I was next to her and she went forward on her chest with front legs out
The moaning was very eerie and lasted maybe 20 times
I knew that was it and she quietly stopped living
Gods in a way as no efforts of the vets would have helped and she actually would have died in unfamiliar place with neon ceiling lights and strangers doing things
Or she would have been euthanized to stop discomfort also not goid
I love her and what hurts is I know she loved me
We have toads here that can secrete a deadly poison when attacked but no toads anywhere in her fenced yard
Acted like poison or toxin as it was so out of nowhere
Thank you
Bob
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Thank you for your time to reply. Very bad time we all miss her in our wheel of life this morning. The boys are very restless
A little research show dad was not tested by Kimbertal but bred a lot of litters
Mother was an run of mill on breeder loan program of thiers
Zarina as of late would got out but run to center of yard and lay down. She sometimes would exhibit a reluctance to come in promptly
Ate fine and tried to control weight which with the new boys she did reduce running with them
Now the boys cannot be together from SSA
So we were working it out with her babysitting one at a time
The major scene with the armadillo was a trigger that had her overworked and max stressed to get it. She didn’t but it caused a suspected over stress. At 3:00 am
She went down about 6:00 pm same day but did act normal and had a small aft meal
Now that I reflect her legs went and her mid section was blown up quite a bit when I wrapped her
The convulsions were not expected and rather unnerving
It went to a shallow unflavored breathing while I was right there trying to find vet help
These vets are such prima donnas that no one was available on a late Friday. Called 6
I was next to her and she went forward on her chest with front legs out
The moaning was very eerie and lasted maybe 20 times
I knew that was it and she quietly stopped living
Gods in a way as no efforts of the vets would have helped and she actually would have died in unfamiliar place with neon ceiling lights and strangers doing things
Or she would have been euthanized to stop discomfort also not goid
I love her and what hurts is I know she loved me
We have toads here that can secrete a deadly poison when attacked but no toads anywhere in her fenced yard
Acted like poison or toxin as it was so out of nowhere
Thank you
Bob
Bob, thanks for the dramatic recount, that unfortunately, many Dobe owners on this forum have experienced.
You still didn't say what her age/name was? Perhaps you could post some of favorite pics of your gal here?

On another topic you mentioned, have your boys had a SSA event that led to their separation? If so, maybe you could contribute to one of the (many) SSA threads here on DT with your experiences. There are still many owners out there that still don't believe SSA is an issue with Dobermans because of a few exceptions they have read about or had.
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I'm sorry for your loss.
A little research show dad was not tested by Kimbertal but bred a lot of litters
Mother was an run of mill on breeder loan program of thiers
This doesn't surprise me at all. Kimbertal is to be avoided at all costs - they produce a LOT of cardio in their dogs.

With this information to hand, I wouldn't bother contacting them. They don't care. If the other two dogs in your home are from them, find a cardiac clinic ASAP and get on a routine with echos and holters.
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Bob, thanks for the dramatic recount, that unfortunately, many Dobe owners on this forum have experienced.
You still didn't say what her age/name was? Perhaps you could post some of favorite pics of your gal here?

On another topic you mentioned, have your boys had a SSA event that led to their separation? If so, maybe you could contribute to one of the (many) SSA threads here on DT with your experiences. There are still many owners out there that still don't believe SSA is an issue with Dobermans because of a few exceptions they have read about or had.
Thanks for your time. She was 7
I have had a couple breeders opinion might have been bloat
She way more than over did chasing the armadillo. When stomach bloats and turns it takes the pan ease with it and discharge a deadly toxin into system that stops the heart
Maybe this?
SSA was three events each very ugly
Now they are always separated
They were the best of buddies till about a year
The fights were beyond domince or Aloha stuff. It was to kill. Very scary and I’m a big guy and usually fearless
They were always happy with the older female
So the world is upside down now
Again thank you
Bob
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Thanks for your time. She was 7
I have had a couple breeders opinion might have been bloat
She way more than over did chasing the armadillo. When stomach bloats and turns it takes the pan ease with it and discharge a deadly toxin into system that stops the heart
Maybe this?
SSA was three events each very ugly
Now they are always separated
They were the best of buddies till about a year
The fights were beyond domince or Aloha stuff. It was to kill. Very scary and I’m a big guy and usually fearless
They were always happy with the older female
So the world is upside down now
Again thank you
Bob
Pancreas.
Bob--I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your girl--it's always hard but what she went through at the end and what you had to watch is very sad.

I would think it's a lot more likely to have been cardio (you saw a number of thing before this last issue which killed her which would have been symptomatic of cardio rather than bloat.) Basically you get a number of preliminary signs of bloat before the stomach flips--usually vomiting with nothing coming up, pacing, getting up and lying down and generally acting uncomfortable. And it didn't sound like any of these were present.

But all that frantic exercise with the armadillo is the kind of thing that can trigger a fatal cardio issue in a dog who may have already been showing signs of a cardio issue. An unfortunately her breeder Kimbertal is know to produce a number of cardio issues in their breeding because they are really careless about testing for anything.

And anurisms are very uncommon in dogs.

And about all you can do with the boys is keep them separated--once they've started fighting it doesn't stop.

dobebug
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We are so sorry for your loss. we would love a picture. Run free sweet girl.
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I am sorry for your loss. So unexpected.. I don't think it was bloat.
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Thank you for your time to reply. Very bad time we all miss her in our wheel of life this morning. The boys are very restless
A little research show dad was not tested by Kimbertal but bred a lot of litters
Mother was an run of mill on breeder loan program of thiers
Zarina as of late would got out but run to center of yard and lay down. She sometimes would exhibit a reluctance to come in promptly
Ate fine and tried to control weight which with the new boys she did reduce running with them
Now the boys cannot be together from SSA
So we were working it out with her babysitting one at a time
The major scene with the armadillo was a trigger that had her overworked and max stressed to get it. She didn’t but it caused a suspected over stress. At 3:00 am
She went down about 6:00 pm same day but did act normal and had a small aft meal
Now that I reflect her legs went and her mid section was blown up quite a bit when I wrapped her
The convulsions were not expected and rather unnerving
It went to a shallow unflavored breathing while I was right there trying to find vet help
These vets are such prima donnas that no one was available on a late Friday. Called 6
I was next to her and she went forward on her chest with front legs out
The moaning was very eerie and lasted maybe 20 times
I knew that was it and she quietly stopped living
Gods in a way as no efforts of the vets would have helped and she actually would have died in unfamiliar place with neon ceiling lights and strangers doing things
Or she would have been euthanized to stop discomfort also not goid
I love her and what hurts is I know she loved me
We have toads here that can secrete a deadly poison when attacked but no toads anywhere in her fenced yard
Acted like poison or toxin as it was so out of nowhere
Thank you
Bob
At 27 years old, 1979, I had a 4 year old go down. It was so sudden! He was so healthy. I was sure he was poisoned. I had him necropsied, and it was a heart attack. Not as healthy as he seemed.
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We are so sorry for your loss. we would love a picture. Run free sweet girl.
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I am sorry for your loss. So unexpected.. I don't think it was bloat.
Really baffling
The speed it happens was along the lines of toxic or poison or DCM heart type of quick reaction
At 27 years old, 1979, I had a 4 year old go down. It was so sudden! He was so healthy. I was sure he was poisoned. I had him necropsied, and it was a heart attack. Not as healthy as he seemed.
so scary to go forward with replacements
How can enjoy with time Bombs just waiting no matter what we do
I have two young females from the best pedigrees in Europe now under training and to earn a title before coming home. They are 11 months
DNA perfect both sides and long history of perfect health
So now how to I get my confidence back?
I have really lost it by standing there not able to help in any way
Her journey ended a great life together and what hurts the most is I know she loved me for 7 years
Do I start again?
I do have the two boys now at 1.4 years and finished in CDC and CDCA. But scared by this
I cannot do anymore than DNA and halter ekg
But still keeps an uncertain feeling now
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Really baffling
The speed it happens was along the lines of toxic or poison or DCM heart type of quick reaction

so scary to go forward with replacements
How can enjoy with time Bombs just waiting no matter what we do
I have two young females from the best pedigrees in Europe now under training and to earn a title before coming home. They are 11 months
DNA perfect both sides and long history of perfect health
So now how to I get my confidence back?
I have really lost it by standing there not able to help in any way
Her journey ended a great life together and what hurts the most is I know she loved me for 7 years
Do I start again?
I do have the two boys now at 1.4 years and finished in CDC and CDCA. But scared by this
I cannot do anymore than DNA and halter ekg
But still keeps an uncertain feeling now
Have faith, check for longevity in the line, study your pedigrees.
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so scary to go forward with replacements
How can enjoy with time Bombs just waiting no matter what we do

So now how to I get my confidence back?
I have really lost it by standing there not able to help in any way
Her journey ended a great life together and what hurts the most is I know she loved me for 7 years
Do I start again?
I feel this deeply. And I'll be honest...I took a step back from the breed entirely. I still have regrets about the dog currently in my house, but she's a mix of two moderately healthy breeds, neither of which have cardio...and I have some confidence that otherwise she's healthy. It's nice not to worry every day that I'm going to wake up to a dead dog in my living room.

I don't know what the way forward is. I DID pursue grief therapy, and that at least helped me there. But I don't know if I'll ever have another Doberman. I need more time.
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Thank you for your time for your thoughts
Dogs dying are hard enough but to have zero warning is a hard thing to assimilate
The girls are all owned and along in training with the best trainer/handler. Pretty hard to stop these plans and it will not change their eestiny
Just mine to be in love with them and have happen
I am not a breeder for business but want to advance breed with this quality
Tough to remain commited
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