[TxDobieLady]

This is related to the accusations against the forum being made in the past 6 months or so . And to people who dont agree with the way people think here I didnt want to put it in any specific thread i think everyone should read it.

in the defense of the forum . My dog came from a less than stellar BYB I got her before I knew better I joined the forum learned so much. and would never do it again. I have received nothing but help and wisdom and advice with her. But i have never defended my breeder I actually loath them. I do think people on here are a bit harsh sometimes but who can blame them sometimes its easy to become heated when discussing beloved pets and something you are passionate about. Especially when you have different cultures and personalitys discussing these dogs they are so passionate about. This would be like someone saying something negative about your child you will defend them down to the teeth.


But getting a puppy from a BYB is like having a child by a Dead Beat Dad
You can love and defend your child but that doesnt mean that you would defend the dead beat that created it.

 

[TxDobieLady]

I forgot to add. That simply because I person made a wrong decision and is to stubborn or proud to admit it. Does this mean that we should still withhold our knowledge from them and not give them advice because of there stupid character flaw. To condemn the dog because of the owner to me is the same as condemning the dog simply because it came from a bad breeder which ever one here claims not to do so why not help the owner because they aren't perfect. I am not saying we shouldn't try to teach them the right thing but can we not give them the dog advice they are seeking hand in hand

 

[TheStig]

It has been said that you shouldn't hate the player, but rather hate the game. In this case, related to peoples forum presence, I think that is reversed, minus the hating part.

The forum is a great place to learn and acquire knowledge, but some think that by ramming their knowledge down your throat in a condescending way, they are somehow making a difference.

Some people are just plain stupid, and it has been said on here before, by many...you can't fix stupid. So, if those stupid people ask for help and still don't take it, let them continue to be stupid.

Trying to force your knowledge or opinion or whatever the case may be on someone who doesn't ask for it, is just asking for trouble and not helping, imho.

The manifesto's on here clearly state the purpose and intentions and beliefs of this site. If someone has a direct question and does not ask for advice or help in any way, just answer the question. Don't assume they need to be lectured.

I lurk a lot, and should probably do so more because I feel I am more open minded and empathetic to peoples situations and feelings. Because of that my views are often clashing with others. I don't mind a difference of opinion, but some folks on here get heated pretty quickly, get defensive and take things a little too personally.

If I had one piece of advice to offer to anyone, don't assume anything. Don't try to find hidden meaning and messages in someones writings. If someone asks a simple direct question, answer it if you can. If you feel they need your advice, you can politely ask if they needed any help in your response to them, or something along those lines.

I think this would cut down on a ton of arguing and derailed threads.

Also, it wouldn't hurt if Pdubois dog was made mandatory to be in everyones signatures.

Beaumont for president and redfawnrising is head of security.

:nicejob:

 

[brw1982]

I will gladly try to help anyone with any dog for the sake of the dog. But I can also choose to walk away and not interact with someone whose personal beliefs I find offensive. I find defending a BYB offensive and I choose not to interact with that person.

I've learned to try to take a "don't ask, don't tell" approach; that's just what works for me. If someone simpley asks a question and I can answer it, then I will. I can usually tell from a mile away whether someone has supported an ethical breeder or a BYB. There's generally no need for me to even ask. As long as they don't throw it in my face and try to sing a scummy breeder's praises, then I won't say anything either. Live and let live.

But when someone is having issue after issue with a pup for fault that can be laid at a disgusting BYB's feet AND they want to defend that @sshole all the while expecting dedicated, experienced, knowledgable forum members to guide and direct them...well, I'm sorry but I'm not going to sit quietly by and "there-there" them for their troubles while listening to how they did nothing wrong in their choice of breeder. It's not my responsibility to make the world a cushy, shiny place for everyone. I don't believe you get to act however you like in life and still expect everyone to treat you with respect and kindness. Doesn't work that way. Even idiots need to grow up sometime.

 

[Darkevs]

ah yes............Assumptions.................... the root of all evil.



I also LOVE Pdubois dog!

 

[RedFawnRising]

I will gladly try to help anyone with any dog for the sake of the dog. But I can also choose to walk away and not interact with someone whose personal beliefs I find offensive. I find defending a BYB offensive and I choose not to interact with that person.

I've learned to try to take a "don't ask, don't tell" approach; that's just what works for me. If someone simpley asks a question and I can answer it, then I will. I can usually tell from a mile away whether someone has supported an ethical breeder or a BYB. There's generally no need for me to even ask. As long as they don't throw it in my face and try to sing a scummy breeder's praises, then I won't say anything either. Live and let live.

But when someone is having issue after issue with a pup for fault that can be laid at a disgusting BYB's feet AND they want to defend that @sshole all the while expecting dedicated, experienced, knowledgable forum members to guide and direct them...well, I'm sorry but I'm not going to sit quietly by and "there-there" them for their troubles while listening to how they did nothing wrong in their choice of breeder. It's not my responsibility to make the world a cushy, shiny place for everyone. I don't believe you get to act however you like in life and still expect everyone to treat you with respect and kindness. Doesn't work that way. Even idiots need to grow up sometime.

Bingo!

Give the lady a prize, Ron.

Yeah, and TX, it's not just the past six months, sadly. It has always been, and likely always will be, that there are some who choose to participate by complaining about the forum, ragging on those who contribute the most, and just generally walking into the room and criticizing their host's decor right off the bat.

I just don't understand why folks don't read some, decide if a certain place on the web is for them, or not, and move on. Or, if there are things they don't like, decide if the overall experience is worth it or not, if they want to take away what works for them, etc, etc.

But, that would be rational, and you know, all mature and stuff.


P.S. One more thing, that sort of always makes me giggle a bit, but also just shake my head--these are the very type who tend to always resort to the ad hominem attack, and often it's couched in very passive-aggressive phrases like "someone like you" and so forth. It's very telling of their interpersonal style.

 

[TxDobieLady]

I wholeheartedly agree that people who defend there byb's that they leave them selves open to be "attacked" but im speaking of the other people that dont know any better as of yet. and yes im aware that is has taken place longer than 6 months im just stating from what ive seen in the past 6 months here and on the beware of DT webiste.. all they are are people who want everything to be easy sugar coated and nice. and never want to face the truth
i secretly hope to end up on there wall of shame haha

 

[RedFawnRising]

I wholeheartedly agree that people who defend there byb's that they leave them selves open to be "attacked" but im speaking of the other people that dont know any better as of yet. and yes im aware that is has taken place longer than 6 months im just stating from what ive seen in the past 6 months here and on the beware of DT webiste.. all they are are people who want everything to be easy sugar coated and nice. and never want to face the truth
i secretly hope to end up on there wall of shame haha

Well, all KevinK had to do to end up there was...rescue a dog! :roflmao:

 

[TxDobieLady]

That is outrageous as are those people. I wish they had a comment section on there website so we could comment on the fake truths on there website. I think it would be hilarious to be on there . If that means im advocating for the breed and helping teach people . To me thats all the people have done who are on that list. I thinks it so funny they actually talk about sewing people as if we arent allowed to speak our mind. And that they say its all about ads on DT. explain why we have over 1 million posts then? check out a bazillion different dog forums none have that many posts.

 

[SchumiTEC]

ah yes............Assumptions.................... the root of all evil.



I also LOVE Pdubois dog!

"Never Assume anything as it makes an Ass of U and Me" :roflmao:

Little saying I say when my employees "Assume" something and end up costing me money

 

[RedFawnRising]

...I wish they had a comment section on there website so we could comment on the fake truths on there website...

Oh, they used to.

But, they didn't have the courage or integrity to let those comments stand, and were busily deleting them as fast as they went up.

Finally, they resorted to the email thing where all comments must be pre-approved.

Censorship, the hobgoblin of small minds

 

[Beaumont67]

.................
But getting a puppy from a BYB is like having a child by a Dead Beat Dad
You can love and defend your child but that doesn't mean that you would defend the dead beat that created it.

^^^^^^^^^ talking point bolded:
I haven't tried to followed your exact situation (drama), to add much other than / a quick comment:

It takes 2 to tangle:
- spread them legs, for the fake 3 piece suit & lover-boy charm & great looks / and sometimes the BLAME is equally on ones personal choices (in life), when a child (or a dog) is brought into this world...to raise
- life is full of excuses / some chose to move forward, past the blame-game / and deal with the present
I like how we always blame the MAN...LOL

 

[SchumiTEC]

I think at the end of the day, everyone on here want's the best for the breed.

Yes it can be frustrating when people buy a dog from a BYB and start asking questions regarding health issues with the dog, especially when there is so much information on the forum about the disadvantages of dealing with a BYB. Anyone who did any kind of research could easily find this information. I think people get frustrated with hearing the same issues over and over again.

At the end of the day, we are all Doberman lovers and should assist anyone having problems with their dog. It's just like a kid, if you saw a starving or beaten child, or a child who's parents were idiots and needed help, you would not turn your back on them. (at least I hope not )

 

[sam&macksmom]

Many people on this forum give their blood, sweat and tears for this breed we love so much. I will always try to help out another member but do expect that I will ask the tough questions. This is who I am and make no apologies for it. I'm the same way in "real life" as I am on this forum.

I'll respond to this thread with the response I've made in the past:

Everyone has a different idea of what "educate" means to them and how this education is delivered. Back in the "old days" I didn't have the Internet to teach me stuff 24/7. Ya know what I did? I read a book. Yep, READ and learned about a particular subject on my own. Hell, in college we used card catalogs to search for books in the library. I was self-sufficient and did my homework, not expecting anyone to do it for me.

I think in this day and age, many people expect information to be delivered on a silver platter. This is my first (and only) forum I belong to. DT has taught me many things but it also taught me that common sense is not so common anymore and many people expect someone else to do their homework for them, instant gratification.

Too many people crying foul when they are told something they don't want to hear. Many times the truth hurts but none the less it needs to be said.

 

[Toby'shuman]

I do not defend the man who bred my Toby, he is a BYB, hell, in Spain as I have said times numerous you would be hard pushed to find a supposed reputable breeder as you have in the US etc.
I also do not pass judgement on people who buy through ignorance a dog from a BYB. That would be cutting my own nose off to spite my face.
I did try to do my homework, I bought books, I googled no end of sites, and still like many I only stumbled upon this site by accident. I am glad I did. I have learnt so much.
I know some people on this site hold such a passion for the breed and welfare of Dobes that sometimes they get a little heated under the collar, especially when their advice isnt being listened too.
All I can say is this site is a benefit to so many, long may it continue.

 

[monicaei]

I chose not to participate in the thread this is referencing, but I think one important thing people neglect to realize (oftentimes cuz they simply don't know) is that this forum has quite a few rescue folks on it. Not just people who chose adoption, yay! Those guys are the BEST gift to a dobe in need, the loving forever home. Also, people who actively participate in the uglier side of rescue. Seeing the dogs as they come in the doors, and what they have been through first hand.

Defending a large volume breeder of genetically compromised dobes is no less than spitting in someones face. It's. Just. Too. Much. Go figure folks get pissed off.

ITS NOT JUST YOUR PUPPY. Glad it found a good home, they ALL deserve that. It's the other constantly churned out litter after litter puppies. Guess what, they aren't all going to good homes.

 

[PatchworkRobot]

While I always welcome a little bit of excitement in my life I've found this week's ordeal to be really interesting (for many reasons but mostly in a human/social psychology way) as there are two ridiculously similar threads...

Thread number 1 - http://www.dobermantalk.com/new-member-introduction/62693-ears-just-cropped-lots-questions.html
Thread number 2 - http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/62788-new-ear-crop-help.html

In both situations new doberman owners were forced to deal with the cropping and aftercare themselves because their "breeder"... well, lets just say that the "breeder" was unable (lets be honest, it probably wouldn't have been done well if either "breeder" had taken on the tasks themselves) and the threads went in two completely different routes. What seemed to happen is that one person recognized the signs of poor practice and was humble enough to admit that while the other person was too proud. The same thing can be said for this person's defenders (too proud, obstinate, perhaps liking to stir things up, etc).

It's be nice if, when a person has an issue, instead of just simply seeking advice at the time they would also look at past and other current threads on the issue. That would save a lot of time, the person with the issue would learn more, and maybe it would keep things calmer because they'd see reactions (and reasons) to whatever is happening to them has happened in the past. Actually, a lot of the bit forum to-do's could benefit from the OP taking time to do just a little extra reading. That being said, I'm a grad student who's social life revolves around my dog... so I like the excitement. (Edit: No, I don't make extra effort to stir things up but when there is a hullabaloo, but appreciate how it gives me extra things to talk to my boyfriend about.)


There was a thread similar to this, actually, many months ago and I think I said something along the lines of this... DobrtmanTalk has been around for years and is still going strong. If the passion of it's core members was a huge issue than not only would the forum not be so ridiculously active but it surely would have disappeared by now. Sure, some people have problems with some of it's members. Whatever. The fact of the matter is that the correct information gets put out there even if some people take it badly. Sure, some members don't like it and they disappear but 90% of the time (whether they disappear quietly or make a big deal out of it) they continue to lurk because this place is chock-full of knowledgeable members full of information. That, right there, is the DobermanTalk's defence.


/endmytwocents

 

[TxDobieLady]

Amen Patchwork.

 

[Sam Erin]

Holy moly, this is all so frustrating. I am soooo doggone tired of all these people selling uncropped puppies, and then seeing the results on DT. No one is thinking about the welfare of the animals. It's getting to be a little too much. I, much too optimistically, emailed someone yesterday about a Dobe I saw on Kijiji. Every once in a while on that site, you see a post from someone who you can just tell isn't spewing BS like the rest, maybe they lost their job, and really want their dog to go to a good home. Well lo and behold I get an email back, asking $700 because they "spent a lot of money" getting the dog's ears cropped. No effing way, are you KIDDING me? If you had bought from a reputable breeder, they would be rehoming your dog for you, not trying to earn gas and grocery money from the sale of your pet, and maybe I could actually get a Doberman!!

How does this pertain to this thread? I have no idea. I'm just frustrated. Maybe this will help someone understand why things get a little heated on DT sometimes. We're tired. Losing faith in humanity. I don't hate anyone who has a BYB dog- as long as they learn why you shouldn't support one, and spread the word to as many people as you can. So to those of you who think the people on DT are rude and snobby, consider this: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. It's about the health and welfare of Dobermans, and all dogs.
Thank you all for attending my pity party. You may be excused.

 

[GingerGunlock]

I do not defend the man who bred my Toby, he is a BYB, hell, in Spain as I have said times numerous you would be hard pushed to find a supposed reputable breeder as you have in the US etc.
I also do not pass judgement on people who buy through ignorance a dog from a BYB. That would be cutting my own nose off to spite my face.
I did try to do my homework, I bought books, I googled no end of sites, and still like many I only stumbled upon this site by accident. I am glad I did. I have learnt so much.
I know some people on this site hold such a passion for the breed and welfare of Dobes that sometimes they get a little heated under the collar, especially when their advice isnt being listened too.
All I can say is this site is a benefit to so many, long may it continue.

Bold mine.

I feel the exact same way! It seems like you have to know about Doberman Talk to find it on Google, and then once you've found it and signed up, it comes up in every search! It's like Fight Club or something. Well, sometimes more than others.

I also somewhat regret supporting my breeder, on principle. I haven't even had any specific problems, and Elka is, to all appearances, completely healthy. She isn't all that conformationally correct, I know that (too big, croup too long, she has that point on her head....), but she could be worse. And the dogs she came from could be worse. Will I buy from that same breeder again? Nope. Will I defend buying from her? Not really; it's a free country and all, and it seems that she's doing some health testing now, but has more dogs than ever, still without titling in any way.

I love my current Doberman dearly. However, my future Doberman will, best case, come from one of the lovely DT breeders that's in New York state :nicejob: