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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Kyrah and I went to our second OB class tonight. After the first class I was told I should probably put her pinch back on her for light corrections. So over this past week I did once. I just put it on....no correction. Complete shut down. She wouldnt even look at me. She hasnt worn it in over a yr. When she did I really didnt give corrections just let her self correct herself when walking. She does have an e-collar and wears it a couple times a week. Very rarely does she get corrected with it but she knows what it is and she doesnt shut down.

So in class she does overall ok. We are learning our fronts. She knows place(heel position) and has for a long time. Just I havent been so picky about her squaring off. So tonight she is in class and doing ok. But when called from a sit/stay for a front. She comes and when I tell her place she is sniffing around and trying to see if that leaf is a treat. Finally halfway makes it to her place. Put her back in a front with same scenerio. We do it again with good not perfect results. So I am assuming this is when I would correct her and did with her slip lead. To no avail.

So on to my dilemma. She is a good girl. Overall listens very well unless cat poop is involved. I feel like I am being mean to her. But I am wondering if she is playing me. I am wondering if I should continue or not. I know she more than likely would never be able to compete b/c I really cant see her standing for examination in any, way, shape or form. She is very weary of people approaching her. I am not sure about all the rules of rally and if there is no examination she might be able to try that.

She really likes going out during the week. I know b/c when we took our few weeks break. She was sneaking out the door trying to get in the vehicles. Even she was still going for all her other outings. Then when she saw me getting everything ready for our first class. She was spinning circles at the door.

Sorry for the ramble. Just confused. :(

So am I being a baby or what? In agility I did very little correcting and just did it over and thats a big change for me, I am assuming.
 

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I don't know anything about agility so I can't respond to that but from your description of Kyrah's behavior, it sure sounds like she doesn't enjoy formal class with the pinch collar but that she loves just being with you and going places with you.
I think it is wonderful that you are sensitive to her feelings and preferences...but I am a marshmallow..
 

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Kyrah and I went to our second OB class tonight. After the first class I was told I should probably put her pinch back on her for light corrections. So over this past week I did once. I just put it on....no correction. Complete shut down. She wouldnt even look at me. She hasnt worn it in over a yr. When she did I really didnt give corrections just let her self correct herself when walking. She does have an e-collar and wears it a couple times a week. Very rarely does she get corrected with it but she knows what it is and she doesnt shut down.

So in class she does overall ok. We are learning our fronts. She knows place(heel position) and has for a long time. Just I havent been so picky about her squaring off. So tonight she is in class and doing ok. But when called from a sit/stay for a front. She comes and when I tell her place she is sniffing around and trying to see if that leaf is a treat. Finally halfway makes it to her place. Put her back in a front with same scenerio. We do it again with good not perfect results. So I am assuming this is when I would correct her and did with her slip lead. To no avail.

So on to my dilemma. She is a good girl. Overall listens very well unless cat poop is involved. I feel like I am being mean to her. But I am wondering if she is playing me. I am wondering if I should continue or not. I know she more than likely would never be able to compete b/c I really cant see her standing for examination in any, way, shape or form. She is very weary of people approaching her. I am not sure about all the rules of rally and if there is no examination she might be able to try that.

She really likes going out during the week. I know b/c when we took our few weeks break. She was sneaking out the door trying to get in the vehicles. Even she was still going for all her other outings. Then when she saw me getting everything ready for our first class. She was spinning circles at the door.

Sorry for the ramble. Just confused. :(

So am I being a baby or what? In agility I did very little correcting and just did it over and thats a big change for me, I am assuming.

I think you need to find something that motivates her in obedience. Do you use food or a toy? Do you make it fun? Do you praise when she does something right?

I don't think you need to quit at all, you might just need to rethink how you train her. ;)

And don't be surprised if one day you can compete. I put a BH on Jasmine who normally is dog aggressive and can be leery of strangers. Hell the judge even handled her while she was alone tied to a tree! You can probably do it to, just takes a lot of patience and more training time than normal. Set small goals and keep things fun for the both of you!
 

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I had the similar experience. My trainer told me to focus on a leadership.
First I was working on "Settle"... she had to stay at my feet for 30 min... no games. If she broke the position I put her back. It was hard at the beginning... but eventually worked out. She never enter the house first anymore... she doesn't run after Gino if I don't allow her... etc. She has to obey no matter what everytime and everywhere.
Now she is perfect in the obedience class.
 

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I started OB classes with Chase and let me tell you, he was a shaking leaf and would try to avoid anything, even a simple 'sit'. I honestly thought I was torturing him, I was tempted to just leave and never do this again. The trainer said that if I do back out, Chase will learn to be 'jumpy' or ignore my commands to get out of any situation. He said that I could take it easy on the corrections and use more toys and treats to motivate him until he gets more comfortable, but to not give up.

Im glad I didnt give up, Chase got over his shaking, and is now doing great! We can almost do OB off leash without him wandering off, he just needs a little more tweaking and more exposure to distractions.
 

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I have no clue, and neither can anyone else without seeing your dog.

There is some stuff in what you wrote, and some other stuff, too... whether any of it applies or has meaning, I don't know.

I think it is highly likely that she is responding to you... and, you feel "mean." That makes her a victim of cruelty, right?

One of the coolest things that no one ever gets about The Koehler Method of Dog Training is that learning what corrections mean and learning how to make oneself correct in response to them is built into the method. If a correction is not understood, it is arbitrary punishment or random unpleasantness or whatever. If your dog is not wholly clear on what a leash correction means, THIS is what you need to be teaching.

Corrections need to be fast and dispassionate. Immediately, the dog is correct and the praise for that takes whatever sting out of the correction. Dispassionate both because you are not judging the dog (you are addressing it's performance) and because you need to keep your own baggage out of the way ("Ohhh! That was so MEAN!!! I'm sorry!!!")... this is kinda why e-collars have better clarity sometimes. Corrections need to be the least that is effective... nagging is stupid and crushing your dog is uncalled for... it takes some practice to be good at judging this.

Obedience is fun! Well, I think obedience is fun. If you don't, than why bother? Your dog can be helped to enjoy obedience, I would think, if she doesn't seem to now. Any learning is stressful sometimes, and stress is NOT automatically a bad thing... stress is how you can tell live things from dead things, and is part of all life... it ends, and one is better for it... not a biggie if it leads to growth, only bad if it is unrelenting. Do NOT fall into the "cheerleader" role! Help her be right and make her be proud of herself and teach her that a correction is not the end of the world... it is already over, and now it's time to move on.

Try to BELIEVE in your dog! If you assume she will fail (you can't see her doing the SFE, for example), the two of you are doomed. Dogs are stronger, more capable and more resiliant than most folks give them credit for. Think of her this way, not as psychologically or socially frail or damaged. It is fine to ask hard things of her (that she can ultimately do or be helped to do)... she will learn that she CAN, and she will feel better about herself and more confidant. Support her strengths, not her weaknesses. Nothing breeds more sucess like sucess!

A long time ago, I was on a list where folks began to add G.H.I.B.T.G.S. plus a number under their signatures. I finally asked, and it was Great Heeling Is Better Than Great Sex. That's how much fun obedience can be!
 

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...One of the coolest things that no one ever gets about The Koehler Method of Dog Training is that learning what corrections mean and learning how to make oneself correct in response to them is built into the method. If a correction is not understood, it is arbitrary punishment or random unpleasantness or whatever. If your dog is not wholly clear on what a leash correction means, THIS is what you need to be teaching.

Corrections need to be fast and dispassionate. Immediately, the dog is correct and the praise for that takes whatever sting out of the correction. Dispassionate both because you are not judging the dog (you are addressing it's performance) and because you need to keep your own baggage out of the way ("Ohhh! That was so MEAN!!! I'm sorry!!!")... this is kinda why e-collars have better clarity sometimes. Corrections need to be the least that is effective... nagging is stupid and crushing your dog is uncalled for... it takes some practice to be good at judging this.

Obedience is fun! Well, I think obedience is fun. If you don't, than why bother? Your dog can be helped to enjoy obedience, I would think, if she doesn't seem to now. Any learning is stressful sometimes, and stress is NOT automatically a bad thing... stress is how you can tell live things from dead things, and is part of all life... it ends, and one is better for it... not a biggie if it leads to growth, only bad if it is unrelenting. Do NOT fall into the "cheerleader" role! Help her be right and make her be proud of herself and teach her that a correction is not the end of the world... it is already over, and now it's time to move on.

Try to BELIEVE in your dog! If you assume she will fail (you can't see her doing the SFE, for example), the two of you are doomed. Dogs are stronger, more capable and more resiliant than most folks give them credit for. Think of her this way, not as psychologically or socially frail or damaged. It is fine to ask hard things of her (that she can ultimately do or be helped to do)... she will learn that she CAN, and she will feel better about herself and more confidant. Support her strengths, not her weaknesses. Nothing breeds more sucess like sucess!

!
What good advice for dogs and people - thanks!
 

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I am not here to have a pro or con opinion on prong collars (as I have never used one), but I will say, my OB teacher only allowed her class to use choke chains...and that was 35 years ago.

I started my Amy in OB as a pup and she loved our time together.
She to started out as a sensitive dog, so my corrects on a scale of 1-10 was probably only a 1 or less.
I got a lot out of her, once she heard the "click" of the choke chain..which meant she was doing something wrong.
When we practiced together privately, I talked to her often, praised her up (sometimes with every step, it probably seemed).
On sits, I would ceress her muzzle in much affection, rub her ears while beside me, bend down and kiss her on the nose, etc.
If she sat crocket, I immediately reached down and straightened up her bum and we tried it again.
She quickly knew what I was asking for and loved our private time together.
At 5 months old, I could train her for 10 minutes or >45 minutes (length of time didn't matter).
Her willingness to be with me, was obvious as I shared much happiness with her...as she tried the drills and improved fast.

I trained with calmness and an exciting voice (no treats or toys needed) and I have learned to have quick timing.
The timing comes from keeping your eyes constantly on the dog and the OB techniques becomes a memory skill within the handler...once the learning curve is achieved.
(Like driving a car - your vision takes in the whole road ahead, and your not simply pointing your vehicle in a straight line, just looking at a couple painted lines ahead)

Herb2relax - Maybe the prong collar is scaring your dobe and you could try a choke chain at low levels of correction & train with the goal of simply having fun together...just my thoughts.
 

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I hope you don`t give up. Not seeing you and your dog it is hard to give an opinion on what you are doing.
I do know that OB can be fun. (I did not always think that way) Think of it as a way to play with and engage with your dog on a much higher level. training is a way of playing.

Motivators are play, food, jumping up and down, whatever gets your dog involved with you. When we are working/training I really am focused on just my dog and he or she should be with me. (thats the goal)

Reward effort, so the front isn`t perfect for now. Did your dog really work hard to try and get there. REWARD, PLAY, HAVE A PARTY

If it is not right, just say lets try again.

Collars--put on 2. You don`t always need to be using the pinch. Walking into the building with a large dog pulling you is not fun and sometimes you need that extra help. Corrections should not really be used in the teaching of a new school. Better to lure (with food), have dog figure it out by themselves (mark with a clicker)
 

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Speaking from just a one dog experience here...

Very early on we did only ob and rally. Bacchus was good (two CDs and his RAE by his 1st bday). Then we tried a little ukc agility. We couldn't get back into the ob/rally because Bach hated it. All he wanted was the agility ring. Didn't matter how many treats or how I approached it......all he was happy doing was the agility. We would walk into a ring and his little head would scan the ring. If he didn't see a bunch of obstacles he would droop.

I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes you do what makes both of you happy. If your dog doesn't like the regimented performance of ob then pick some venue that makes your partner smile. JMO
 

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Vader loves rally. He hated obedience. I believe it is the lack of talking that he didn't like. In rally you can talk the entire time to the dog and give praise along the way - I have found that as he has advanced in his training I don't talk as much as I used to. It is easier to keep him engaged if I can talk to him. I too am enjoying rally much more then I did obedience. We lucked out with a great instructor and a fun class. It a great group of people & dogs. Vader also works better off leash which I think stems from all his agility.

Sniffing can be a stress response also yawning. She may not understand what you are asking for. We practice all kinda of exercises randomly for treats at the house. He has to back back back for his breakfast some days and his back has gotten much straighter. You have to make it fun.
 

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Vader loves rally. He hated obedience. I believe it is the lack of talking that he didn't like. In rally you can talk the entire time to the dog and give praise along the way - I have found that as he has advanced in his training I don't talk as much as I used to. It is easier to keep him engaged if I can talk to him. I too am enjoying rally much more then I did obedience. We lucked out with a great instructor and a fun class. It a great group of people & dogs. Vader also works better off leash which I think stems from all his agility.

Sniffing can be a stress response also yawning. She may not understand what you are asking for. We practice all kinda of exercises randomly for treats at the house. He has to back back back for his breakfast some days and his back has gotten much straighter. You have to make it fun.
^^^^^^^^^ Totally agree, talking points bolded:
- good observation

I find one of the biggest problems, people make in OB training is not having the dog totally engaged & focused and allowing any sniffing makes for a practice session headed South.
When I see the dogs nose go down to the ground training on-leash...dog gets corrected ASAP, this distraction on the dogs part, is one very bad habit, that should not be allowed.
Having corrected the sniffing part enough, once the leash comes off, the dog hasn't the desire to sniff anymore.

When I train OB, I can initally talk like a "skipping record" if I want to.
With improvement, I am more quite, but still make the loving hand touches...on my dog.
Once we compete in the ring, she is OK to perform without the added talk & touch / from the asmospher of the venue, she knows something is different / I still love her, but now its work time.
But in practice, thats the fun part, where we share much communication together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Really good advise given.

Okie-dobie - I am the only one who brings a toy. I bring her tug. I am the only one who really seems to be talking to their dog.

DreamValley - This is why its hard for me to be so specific about her sitting in the exact right spot. She is good. Plays when I say, cant touch that toy Cujo is playing with that one. Cujo and Dexter are playing no double teaming. She listens and stays by me in all situations. She doesnt run off. If I tell her she cant greet that dog then she doesnt. She has also since she was young waited patiently for me to finish what I was doing even if it took a couple hours or so.

mmctaq - Great point. I believe I am overwhelmed. We are new to the class and everyone else is a repeat or has been repeating for a while. Yes, I think I need to better understand before giving her corrections since this is new to me. Me giving a jerk on her slip lead is IMO what is stressing me out. Not to mention her eyes & ears being in that position that are looking at me like "what mom? what do you want me to do? I am sitting right here." Which this is when my trainer is saying I need to correct but I am not sure she knows why I am giving her a squeeze with her slip lead. So I think I am going to pull the clicker out for a better position choice.

Her e-collar I have only used for recalls. She wears it when Dexter, grandpup, comes over, hiking or offleash area. He is right under 20lbs and I use it as a saftey precaution.

Yes, I need to get over the reaction issues she used to have. She has gotten way better. I have worked so hard and long with her that I dont want anything to ruin the progress we have made. When we get to that part is when I need to deal with it not now.

mmctaq - What a great post! Thanks!

Beaumont67 - I have always done what you are talking about. We love when she has her muzzel snuggled up on us from the heel position. I always talk to her which some people think I do it too much. Your right the sniffing leads downhill quickly. I need to work on that.

alwayshadpets - After reading I was thinking of two collars. Great idea. She isnt a puller normally only very occassoinally. She is so mellow about everything except chasing Dexter or her flirt pole. But she is always willing to go, be with me and do what I want.

Jenny - I also think Kyrah works better off leash. I am constantly dropping her leash for her to do what I asked.

Thanks everyone! I guess I am a bit overwhelmed and need to just take a step back & refocus. Get a plan in place. Work on just one or two things at a time. When the class is doing something we arent ready for I will just work on focus.
 

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Just my two cents - if you aren't enjoying training with corrections, then I wouldn't train with them. Both parties I feel need to enjoy classes. Do what you guys need to do to have fun.

I'm a bumbling silly idiot at class sometimes if I need to be to get the job done. We have critters at agility class. Now, halfway through the class havoc runs and does everything but tries to run with his nose down. Even if I was a correctionb ased trainer, this dog would DIE if anyone corrected him :) I had to find an alternative path so we both have fun. He used to sniff from start to finish (and still clear the jumps by 6") so I'm making progress. Find the key that works for both of you is what I'm trying to say :) The key is different for everyone and every dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Just my two cents - if you aren't enjoying training with corrections, then I wouldn't train with them. Both parties I feel need to enjoy classes. Do what you guys need to do to have fun.

I'm a bumbling silly idiot at class sometimes if I need to be to get the job done. We have critters at agility class. Now, halfway through the class havoc runs and does everything but tries to run with his nose down. Even if I was a correctionb ased trainer, this dog would DIE if anyone corrected him :) I had to find an alternative path so we both have fun. He used to sniff from start to finish (and still clear the jumps by 6") so I'm making progress. Find the key that works for both of you is what I'm trying to say :) The key is different for everyone and every dog.
Thanks, I am going to try several different things and see what type of results I get. Then make a decision.
 

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I think finding a venue that works for both of you is very important. Whether it be agility, obedience, tracking, flyball, etc...your trainer has to be able to motivate you both and problem solve. That is one of the biggest issues I have with most of the akc obedience classes in my area...they are boring and cookie cutter. So first, I would find a class that challenges you in whatever venue you choose. I like to watch trainers work their own dogs. If I am inspired by their work then I want to learn from them, otherwise its a waste of time IMO.

Second, I would cut back her food and use a high value treat for training (hotdogs for example). Since you are still teaching new positions, I would use food to guide her into the correct position and reinforce the command. If she isn't hungry she won't be motivated to work.

I don't see anything wrong with using the pinch...I would much rather give one good correction than a thousand weak corrections to no avail. At this point, it sounds like you just need to motivate her so I wouldn't really be doing any correcting. I would just focus on short exercises and ending on a good note. That is another thing I hate about a lot of classes, they go wayyy too long. If this is the case in your class, work on your own. Stay in the group but do short spurts and give her breaks in between so she starts wanting to work for you and getting excited about it.
 

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Just my two cents - if you aren't enjoying training with corrections, then I wouldn't train with them. Both parties I feel need to enjoy classes. Do what you guys need to do to have fun.

Now, halfway through the class havoc runs and does everything but tries to run with his nose down. Even if I was a correctionb ased trainer, this dog would DIE if anyone corrected him :) I had to find an alternative path so we both have fun. He used to sniff from start to finish (and still clear the jumps by 6") so I'm making progress.
I think maybe folks over-rate fun... there is something to be said for the satisfaction that comes from having done well.

If Havoc would die if anyone corrected him, that means (to me) that he does not understand correction and that the proper correction would not have been used. It is usually confusion which causes "death." If the use of corrections is built into one's training, they are meaningful and constructive.

I am on a list with the first person to put an OTCh on a ... beagle! I am pretty sure that anyone who claims to have a sniffing problem doesn't really have a clue about sniffing problems (unless they, also, have a beagle LOL!). She has now put an OTCh on a second beagle, and is on her way with her third. In her universe there is no sniffing ever if a dog is on leash, and no sniffing ever in training unless a dog is working a pile of scent articles. Not ever. She does not have a sniffing problem, and has happily working little hounds.
 

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A propos o' nothin'...

Attention is the foundation of obedience. Attention is not something one trains one's dog to do, but something in which a person and a dog engage. It is the foundation of relationship. If anybody (but me LOL!) is old enough to remember the character Professor Harold Hill from "The Music Man" and The Think System of learning to play an instrument... attention allows for something like this to be possible in dog training. It is what the secret G.H.I.B.T.G.S. Club had. It is when one is so deeply connected that the rest of the universe ceases to exist and there is only the single entity that is the person and the dog.

However much you have worked on attention, work on it more...
 

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IIf Havoc would die if anyone corrected him, that means (to me) that he does not understand correction and that the proper correction would not have been used. It is usually confusion which causes "death." If the use of corrections is built into one's training, they are meaningful and constructive.

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He's a true Vizsla and a VERY soft Vizsla. To be fair, he might not die all the time.:) I do correct if he humps. In typical obedience/agility training, Vizslas as a breed WILT with corrections. You really can't compare them to most breeds. And I can't quite put into words just how soft Vizslas are andh ow many get ruined in training. They shut down horribly easy. My Dobe handlers comment often how they disklike that about the breed, especially compared to Dobes :)

On the other hand, during bird work, he is on a long lead with a corrective collar on and he does just fine.

She has a beagle. I have a Vizsla. Comparing apples to oranges here :) She did obedience, I do agility. Comparing apples to oranges. That's NOT to say that OTCh isn't freaking awesome!! That is amazing!!!

I HUNT with my Vizslas. I'm not going to stop him from sniffing. he is truly sniffing critters. Hunting and agility are off leash. Not stress sniffing or blowing me off. And he is continuing to do the objects and only at class. His first tiral just before he was 2. He did great. Me..I look like a nervous wreck

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/...current=havjwwnov02-05.mp4&mediafilter=videos
 
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He's a true Vizsla and a VERY soft Vizsla. To be fair, he might not die all the time.:) I do correct if he humps. In typical obedience/agility training, Vizslas as a breed WILT with corrections. You really can't compare them to most breeds. And I can't quite put into words just how soft Vizslas are andh ow many get ruined in training. They shut down horribly easy. My Dobe handlers comment often how they disklike that about the breed, especially compared to Dobes :)
I know. I actually LIKE this about them... my first Doberman was almost this soft.

Once upon a time, I wanted to use a pinch collar, but never had. When I was taking classes here and there trying to find a place I liked, I had gone to this facility where a woman used to come and work her Stafforshire Bull Terrier around my class. She had a micro-pinch on her dog, and a piece of kite string for a leash... she used to correct by tapping the string with her index finger. So, I remembered this woman and her dog (who I later learned was the most highly titled Staffy in the country), and called the place I had seen her. I asked if they knew who she was and if they could call her and ask her to call me. She called, and agreed to show me how to use a pinch collar correctly. I get to her house, she puts the collar on my dog, gives a little pop... and, he dies. I, at this point, am certain that I have made the worst mistake in the history of history. She gives ANOTHER little pop and simultaneously reaches forward and pinches my dog HARD on the chest! My dog is now dead and stricken, to boot, and I am certain that I have handed my dog over to a lunatic. Then, she does it again and my dog takes a swipe at her with an open mouth... "Oh, my god! Did my dog try to BITE you???". She gives me a shut-up-and-mind-your-own-business look and I'm lookin' to get out of there and she does it AGAIN! My dog pops up with eyes all aglitter and begins dancing! He is ready to rock and roll and more up and happy than I have EVER seen him in training! He is WORSHIPPING this pinchy woman! It was sooooo cool.

Had it been me, and someone had instructed me to do what she did, I would have seen the death and crawled home consumed with the certainty and guilt that I had destroyed my dog. Her response to his death was, "I won't LET you die!" or maybe it was "Go ahead and die. I am going to lead you to The Afterlife!" It was a very educational experience for me. When I grow up, I hope to be half the trainer that she is.
 
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