Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone know whether a DCM heterozygous doberman will definitely develop the disease? I'm looking at puppies and one I really like is the offspring of a DCM heterozygous bitch and DCM heterozygous sire. The puppy hasn't been tested but is likely to have at least one copy of the gene. Wondering whether that should be a deal breaker... Thanks!
 

·
Get the bunnies!
Joined
·
7,024 Posts
Not a deal breaker. The genetic test cannot really tell us anything at this point, it's more for the purpose of research.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,778 Posts
Untested, to me... absolutely a complete deal breaker! Any pup from this litter has a 25% chance of carrying two copies of the mutation, and you couldn't pay me to go there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,449 Posts
It does not mean he/she will or won't get DCM. There are probably many genes that cause DCM. Many dogs tested with the gene test that had cardio were clear on this test.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,778 Posts
It does not mean he/she will or won't get DCM. There are probably many genes that cause DCM. Many dogs tested with the gene test that had cardio were clear on this test.
Undoubtedly, there is/are another gene(s). 15% of the dogs tested who also have been diagnosed with cardiomyopathy have tested clear... this means that 85% have NOT tested clear. The gene controls (this is from memory, and maybe screwed up with regard to accuracy) the production of an enzyme which carries energy to the heart muscle... dogs which carry two copies of this gene ain't right... whether or not they become ill is likely to depend on factors of which we still are unaware.

My dog was vWD affected and my bitch is a carrier. She has tended to bleed abnormally, and he did not with a couple of exceptions. So, in my personal experience, knowing the vWD status of a Doberman is not very useful in predicting which animal may be at risk of a bleeding event. Does this negate the value of vWD testing?
 

·
Super Moderator
GOT's Kal-Drogo The Horseman (Drogo),TKI,TKN, CGC, 7 years; RIP Baron, Miley, Dax, Lonesome, Baron 1
Joined
·
18,344 Posts
I'd pay far more attention to the pedigree and current echo/holter results of the parents.
Yes, I definitely agree with MD. The gene is only one very small piece of the puzzle. Would definitely be more concerned with echo/holter results and what is in the pedigree. Baron tested negative for the gene is in early stage DCM. His DCM comes from 5 or 6 generations back in his pedigree.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,449 Posts
My dog was vWD affected and my bitch is a carrier. She has tended to bleed abnormally, and he did not with a couple of exceptions. So, in my personal experience, knowing the vWD status of a Doberman is not very useful in predicting which animal may be at risk of a bleeding event. Does this negate the value of vWD testing?
I'm all for testing. It's one of the few tests we have. I didn't think I posted being against testing. Right now it has limited use, but I'm all for testing. Meant to add if my post came across that way, that was not my intent. Posting and watching football.
 

·
Sea Hag
Joined
·
12,933 Posts
To the OP: from the very beginning, when Dr. Meurs first announced this test, she's said there will be dogs who test positive who WILL NOT develop the disease, they'll be asymptomatic carriers. This is because she believes the gene she isolated to have variable penetrance-not all positive dogs will be affected to the same degree, some won't be affected at all.

There are also probably other genes and environmental factors that influence how the disease might be expressed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Heterozygous dogs won't necessarily develop the disease.. there is also a possibility that something else (like cancer) will get them before they have a chance to develop DCM. So, honestly, it is kind of a crapshoot. Pedigree research is helpful, because if there is decent longevity there, it might mean that the trend in that family is to not develop the disease until quite late in life...

However it *seems* from the testing results so far that heterozygous and homozygous dogs are considerably more likely to develop DCM than clears are. Anyone got the numbers on that...? I can't remember.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,105 Posts
Everything aside. I would not breed a heterozygous female to a heterozygous male. It seems to me if a heterozygous bitch or dog is bred it should be bred to a clear. I do agree that is seems too early to determine just how much of an impact this whole testing process will have.
 

·
sufferin succotash
Joined
·
9,168 Posts
This, 100%.


I'd pay far more attention to the pedigree and current echo/holter results of the parents.
I'm finding more and more BYB's are using the DCM test as a marketing tool, much like they do with vWD. IMO, many pieces of the puzzle need reviewed, not just the DCM test results.


**OP- not automatically calling your breeder a BYB as you haven't stated who the breeder is**
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
It seems kind of irresponsible to breed two dogs like this, so I'm not sure I would trust the breeder. There are breeders out there who will make every effort to insure all of their puppies, or as many as humanly possible, are healthy. Setting up statistically 25% of their puppies for failure (and a disease that means certain death) seems..wrong. I could be wrong of course. I'm not one to judge having no experience with breeding myself. -
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
204 Posts
I can think of several dogs who were homozygotes and never developed DCM. Several dogs that are DNA clear yet clinically affected. So the DNA test is really just one piece to a very large puzzle. Having the mutation increases the likehood of a dog developing DCM - it doesn't guarantee it.
 

·
Sea Hag
Joined
·
12,933 Posts
It seems kind of irresponsible to breed two dogs like this, so I'm not sure I would trust the breeder. There are breeders out there who will make every effort to insure all of their puppies, or as many as humanly possible, are healthy. Setting up statistically 25% of their puppies for failure (and a disease that means certain death) seems..wrong. I could be wrong of course. I'm not one to judge having no experience with breeding myself. -
I think it's much too soon to be making value judgements about the decisions breeders make with this test. I don't see a problem saying you might not want a puppy from a particular breeding combination, that's personal choice. But until we get further down the road with this test and more research, I wouldn't do any finger pointing at anyone over their decisions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,778 Posts
I think it's much too soon to be making value judgements about the decisions breeders make with this test.
I dunno. A part of me agrees with this, but a part of me does not.

It seems to me that the bottom line is that there is not really any doubt that a dog who carries two copies of this mutation is at much higher statistical risk of developing cardiomyopathy than a dog who does not. I don't think that I could find a way to justify deliberately choosing to do breedings which could/would result in such dogs being born.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
I'm not wagging any fingers just yet.. personally, but I do know that if I purchase another puppy it will probably be the result of a clear x clear breeding or a heterozygous x clear breeding. I think I would rather support breeders who are really trying to go that direction.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top