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I love Kansa Dobermans, they create nice balanced dogs that don't fall into any extremes, that win in the show ring and title in working sports, they really do breed for the Total Doberman!

If what you want is a working dog, I'd check out Krieghund Dobermanns they are located in Michigan. Not exactly sure where in Michigan, but definitely midwestern. Their website doesn't seem to work but they're active on their facebook page.

I've never heard of Elitehaus. Checking out her website and spending time digging through her Working-Dog page, there are several things that stand out to me, some I like, some I dislike, some I feel neutral towards. I will list my observations but try to remain neutral and not specify which I like/dislike/no particular feelings. I can expand on these points if you have questions. I also will refrain from commenting on conformation unless you specifically want my opinion.

- Seems aware of the health tests (vWD, Heart, Hips, Elbow) and also tests for more than just those (at a cursory glance I see Thyroid, Liver, Kidneys, Eyes).
- However doesn't seem to be consistent on the amount of tests she does from dog to dog.
- Heart doesn't seem to be 'entirely' tested for (echo + holter) on any of the dogs.
- Bloodlines all over the map.
- In the show line pedigrees I see a lot of repeating dogs and kennel names. Lots of Altobello, in particular.
- Seems to educate herself pertinently with regards to training/canine behaviour.
- She has a lot of dogs.
- She breeds a lot.
- Multiple breeds.
- Unclear if she titles her dogs in confo or buys/imports them already titled in confo venues.
- Says she is a professional trainer and competes in IPO and AKC Obedience and has obtained CDs, BH and SchHA (which is obedience/protection only, no tracking).
- Says she's an evaluator for the CGC however only one of her dogs has a CGC(deceased) and I'd be curious to know why.
- Only has one dobe out of 15 active listed ones to have a working title higher than a BH, a bitch she imported with an IPO1 (but her page mentions they hope to put an IPO2 on her). * she is for sale, but no reason listed why (and she's already had a litter).
- If you expand it to retired and deceased ones that is 2 out of 20 to have an IPO1.
- Only 4 out of the 15 active dobes listed have any work/performance/temperament titles.
- If you expand it to retire and deceased dogs that is 6 out of 20 to have any work/performance/temperament titles.
- None of the German Shepherds listed have any titles.
- No info about the Golden Retriever.
- Has 1 Beauceron bitch for sale, untitled.
- One of the retired studs which was used for breeding is completely untitled.


Regarding this specific mating...
-I'm not too jazzed about the fact that the male's 24-hour holter monitor test is listed as 'Pending'. The results should be known before breeding in my opinion (and this male has been bred before so holter wasn't done prior...). I also am concerned about the fact that on her website his hips are listed as Normal, but if you actually look the dog up on OFA his hips are Fair. This could be a simple error of course, but it is noteworthy... The Cardio results are not listed in OFA so I'd request copies before committing to any puppy. You said you want a working temperament but this dog is not titled in any working or performance venues yet. His pedigree is not a strict working pedigree either so there is no guarantee of consistency in that regard. I see he was also approved for a breeding to Von Rein dobermans which, if you use the forum search, will see isn't exactly ethical...
-The Dam's website page lists her hips as Fair and elbows as normal. OFA confirms this. Props for honesty, however I'd be highly concerned about breeding Fair hips to Fair hips, especially in this breed. It says she is DCM negative for DNA but doesn't specify whether DCM1 or DCM2 and the DNA DCM results tend to often be inaccurate for Euros, especially the older one. No mention of echo or holter. No heart-related results in OFA either. Here too I'd like to see the echo and holter done before the mating (And since she has had two litters before it means the heart was not done before breeding). She lists MSU thyroid results for this bitch on the website but as they haven't been uploaded to OFA, I'd definitely request to see the documents here too. Here too, she is not titled in any performance or working venues.
- I'm not a fan of Altobello in general for multiple reasons (I don't think many people on this forum are). That being said at a cursory glance I like the top half of her pedigree. Not a fan of the bottom half.
 

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Aldercrest

Of course, all of these breeders are minimum 8 hour drive. It makes me uneasy to spend such money on never visiting the kennel or meeting any of the dogs.
First I am very sorry for your loss. They do become such a big part of our lives.

and it's ADlercrest rather than ALdercrest. :grin2:

As for the drive, it seems most have to drive some distance to find the right puppy. My last litter, 1 stayed in SC, well 2 because I kept 1, the others went to GA, MI and MN. If you stick with a reputable breeder, it really won't be necessary to visit, you will get updates, photos, phone calls, emails, text messages, etc. They will check you out and won't be offended if you check them out. Should be happy to give you references, answer any questions you might have and provide you with a good deal of information.

And just because, thought I would share my American Bred Dobes.
Spock is 27.5" tall, 95# and a pretty sturdy guy. Fame is 25.5" tall and 75#, built like a brick blankety blank :) Good luck with your search.



 

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Discussion Starter #24
I believe (senior members correct me if I’m wrong) that many euro lines have cardio in them pretty bad. Personally, I would go for health and longevity over looks any day. As other members have said you can easily get that powerful stocky look in the american lines as well, especially the boys. Also, I would suggest a quick search on this site to learn more about the kennels you are looking at....

Here’s my Sully when he wasn’t even 2 years old
63B271DA-F2E4-4B03-A361-FE2555FCFE60 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr

And a headshot
1F2A58AD-2A64-49CE-9B9F-84AC17A9B212 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr
I dont disagree, health/longevity/temperament are top priorities. Your dog is very handsome, btw, and I appreciate your input.

I would pass on that other breeder you mention. There is no real heart health test information (you want to see holter/echo results) and they are breeding mostly untitled dogs with poor conformation. The IABCA "international champion" title is NOT worth any more than the paper its printed on when it comes to evaluating breeding stock. You can get that title on pretty much any doberman. Kansa would be your best choice out of those two.
Not going to lie, I was sold on this elite haus breeding because their "ali baba" is an absolute spitting image and temperament description of my dobe, Leonidas, that passed last month. So, nostalgia was getting to me. I'm also concerned about the indreeding coefficient of "ali baba," though I am new to this and am not sure how much weight to give this.

I dont disagree, Kansa appears to be the better kennel/breeder.


First I am very sorry for your loss. They do become such a big part of our lives.

and it's ADlercrest rather than ALdercrest. :grin2:

As for the drive, it seems most have to drive some distance to find the right puppy. My last litter, 1 stayed in SC, well 2 because I kept 1, the others went to GA, MI and MN. If you stick with a reputable breeder, it really won't be necessary to visit, you will get updates, photos, phone calls, emails, text messages, etc. They will check you out and won't be offended if you check them out. Should be happy to give you references, answer any questions you might have and provide you with a good deal of information.

And just because, thought I would share my American Bred Dobes.
Spock is 27.5" tall, 95# and a pretty sturdy guy. Fame is 25.5" tall and 75#, built like a brick blankety blank :) Good luck with your search.




Thanks for correcting me on the name :) probably explains why I had a hard time googling them! I think part of the reason I wanted to visit was the hope so meet either the dam or sire (or, hopefully, both). Mainly to see what kind of environment they raise the dogs in and what sort of temperament.

Spock is a powerful looking dog. I would have guessed he was 100% euro!
 

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The biggest misconception people have is AmBred males are spindly, skinny little things. This is obviously not the case if they're well bred, allowed to develop correctly through sexual maturity, and are worked.
 

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I love Kansa Dobermans, they create nice balanced dogs that don't fall into any extremes, that win in the show ring and title in working sports, they really do breed for the Total Doberman!

If what you want is a working dog, I'd check out Krieghund Dobermanns they are located in Michigan. Not exactly sure where in Michigan, but definitely midwestern. Their website doesn't seem to work but they're active on their facebook page.

I've never heard of Elitehaus. Checking out her website and spending time digging through her Working-Dog page, there are several things that stand out to me, some I like, some I dislike, some I feel neutral towards. I will list my observations but try to remain neutral and not specify which I like/dislike/no particular feelings. I can expand on these points if you have questions. I also will refrain from commenting on conformation unless you specifically want my opinion.

- Seems aware of the health tests (vWD, Heart, Hips, Elbow) and also tests for more than just those (at a cursory glance I see Thyroid, Liver, Kidneys, Eyes).
- However doesn't seem to be consistent on the amount of tests she does from dog to dog.
- Heart doesn't seem to be 'entirely' tested for (echo + holter) on any of the dogs.
- Bloodlines all over the map.
- In the show line pedigrees I see a lot of repeating dogs and kennel names. Lots of Altobello, in particular.
- Seems to educate herself pertinently with regards to training/canine behaviour.
- She has a lot of dogs.
- She breeds a lot.
- Multiple breeds.
- Unclear if she titles her dogs in confo or buys/imports them already titled in confo venues.
- Says she is a professional trainer and competes in IPO and AKC Obedience and has obtained CDs, BH and SchHA (which is obedience/protection only, no tracking).
- Says she's an evaluator for the CGC however only one of her dogs has a CGC(deceased) and I'd be curious to know why.
- Only has one dobe out of 15 active listed ones to have a working title higher than a BH, a bitch she imported with an IPO1 (but her page mentions they hope to put an IPO2 on her). * she is for sale, but no reason listed why (and she's already had a litter).
- If you expand it to retired and deceased ones that is 2 out of 20 to have an IPO1.
- Only 4 out of the 15 active dobes listed have any work/performance/temperament titles.
- If you expand it to retire and deceased dogs that is 6 out of 20 to have any work/performance/temperament titles.
- None of the German Shepherds listed have any titles.
- No info about the Golden Retriever.
- Has 1 Beauceron bitch for sale, untitled.
- One of the retired studs which was used for breeding is completely untitled.


Regarding this specific mating...
-I'm not too jazzed about the fact that the male's 24-hour holter monitor test is listed as 'Pending'. The results should be known before breeding in my opinion (and this male has been bred before so holter wasn't done prior...). I also am concerned about the fact that on her website his hips are listed as Normal, but if you actually look the dog up on OFA his hips are Fair. This could be a simple error of course, but it is noteworthy... The Cardio results are not listed in OFA so I'd request copies before committing to any puppy. You said you want a working temperament but this dog is not titled in any working or performance venues yet. His pedigree is not a strict working pedigree either so there is no guarantee of consistency in that regard. I see he was also approved for a breeding to Von Rein dobermans which, if you use the forum search, will see isn't exactly ethical...
-The Dam's website page lists her hips as Fair and elbows as normal. OFA confirms this. Props for honesty, however I'd be highly concerned about breeding Fair hips to Fair hips, especially in this breed. It says she is DCM negative for DNA but doesn't specify whether DCM1 or DCM2 and the DNA DCM results tend to often be inaccurate for Euros, especially the older one. No mention of echo or holter. No heart-related results in OFA either. Here too I'd like to see the echo and holter done before the mating (And since she has had two litters before it means the heart was not done before breeding). She lists MSU thyroid results for this bitch on the website but as they haven't been uploaded to OFA, I'd definitely request to see the documents here too. Here too, she is not titled in any performance or working venues.
- I'm not a fan of Altobello in general for multiple reasons (I don't think many people on this forum are). That being said at a cursory glance I like the top half of her pedigree. Not a fan of the bottom half.
First, I wanted to thank you for taking the time for taking the time to researching this kennel and the pedigrees listed for the planned breeding. I learned A LOT by your post, and I will be able to apply this information to my future prospects.

Long story short, I am not going with Elite Haus. And I would have if I had not asked a few questions here. The sire, ali baba, reminds me to much of my dog that recently passed... its eerie. It made me want one of his off spring.

I found a major red flag. I asked Elite Haus about what type of puppies they expected with "Baba" v "Gravin." I was told that "breeding plans" had changed, and Baba was going to be bred with another dam they have, Iskra Nanoly v Noblesshof this fall. No worry I thought....

I did a search for Nanoly v Novlesshof, trying to find pedigree information. And I found this:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/VonReinDobermans/posts/?ref=page_internal

According to this facebook page, as of August 6th 2018, Von Rein Dobermans currently has a litter of puppies bred by Public Enemy No 1 Ali Baba v Iskra Nanoly v Noblesshof. Elite Haus is from Dexter, Missouri and von Rein is from Oregonia, Ohio

So either these 2 dogs are being bred back to back, or one of these kennels is lying about who the puppies are coming from.

For future reference though, I do want to ask you. One of the things that concerned me about "Baba" was his Inbreeding Coefficient seems high - 10.16%. Do you think this something important to consider as well?




Also, I agree with you that Kansa Dobes it a very high quality pick. Currently, they are my top choice. They state they wont sell dogs to owners without fenced in yards. I live on 3 acres and fencing it in is not possible; I hope this is not an issue with them.

I made contact with your recommendation, Krieghund Dobermans. I am very, very impressed with his kennel and his dogs. His dam and sire for his upcoming litter are both IPO3 and very high energy. I fear that I would not be doing one of his pups justice by serving in a home that has no intentions of IPO work.

Again, thank you for your time and efforts helping me.
 

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Consider fencing in just part of the yard, maybe a nice-sized area next to the house. The fencing is not just to keep your dog from leaving the property. It is also to keep him or her safe by keeping other animals out. Good breeders care about the safety of the homes their puppies go to; Kansa won’t be the only one asking about a fenced yard area. But it’s not likely that they will require your whole 3 acres to be fenced.
 

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First, I wanted to thank you for taking the time for taking the time to researching this kennel and the pedigrees listed for the planned breeding. I learned A LOT by your post, and I will be able to apply this information to my future prospects.

Long story short, I am not going with Elite Haus. And I would have if I had not asked a few questions here. The sire, ali baba, reminds me to much of my dog that recently passed... its eerie. It made me want one of his off spring.

I found a major red flag. I asked Elite Haus about what type of puppies they expected with "Baba" v "Gravin." I was told that "breeding plans" had changed, and Baba was going to be bred with another dam they have, Iskra Nanoly v Noblesshof this fall. No worry I thought....

I did a search for Nanoly v Novlesshof, trying to find pedigree information. And I found this:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/VonReinDobermans/posts/?ref=page_internal

According to this facebook page, as of August 6th 2018, Von Rein Dobermans currently has a litter of puppies bred by Public Enemy No 1 Ali Baba v Iskra Nanoly v Noblesshof. Elite Haus is from Dexter, Missouri and von Rein is from Oregonia, Ohio

So either these 2 dogs are being bred back to back, or one of these kennels is lying about who the puppies are coming from.

For future reference though, I do want to ask you. One of the things that concerned me about "Baba" was his Inbreeding Coefficient seems high - 10.16%. Do you think this something important to consider as well?




Also, I agree with you that Kansa Dobes it a very high quality pick. Currently, they are my top choice. They state they wont sell dogs to owners without fenced in yards. I live on 3 acres and fencing it in is not possible; I hope this is not an issue with them.

I made contact with your recommendation, Krieghund Dobermans. I am very, very impressed with his kennel and his dogs. His dam and sire for his upcoming litter are both IPO3 and very high energy. I fear that I would not be doing one of his pups justice by serving in a home that has no intentions of IPO work.

Again, thank you for your time and efforts helping me.
I commend you for managing to look beyond your emotional response to the male's physique! As for the breeding it wouldn't surprise me if it were back to back... although it is funny since earlier this year Von Rein claimed that she'd focus on her American lines and sell all her euro dogs. She has worked with Elitehaus before so maybe this is her compromise...

Regarding inbreeding... one thing that you need to understand is that there are two types of inbreeding - one is inbreeding coefficient by pedigree. That is to say, based on the dog's known ancestors and based on the dogs written in the pedigree, how much inbreeding is there.
BUT, this is highly misleading, because when you genotype the dogs and DNA test them, the inbreeding by DNA tends to be way higher than the inbreeding by pedigree. I believe according to the DDP it's 40-50% in American Dobes and 50-60% in Euro dobes... on average. 30% would be considered low. Our breed is unfortunately, much more inbred on average than the majority of other purebred dogs. With 900 dobermans tested from around the world we have only found 1 founding sire and 6 foundation dams.
There are some breeders who still believe in line-breeding. And to a degree due to popular sire syndrome it's almost unavoidable. That's just a sad reality of our breed, at this point, I know some people are now using the Doberman Diversity Project tools to find matches for their dogs or bitches based in part on how distantly related they are from their prospective partners. I strongly commend breeders who are now factoring genetic diversity in their matings or working actively to decrease the inbreeding coefficient. I'd say this is not the norm yet however. If a puppy you're interested in is free of inbreeding in the first 3-4 generations it's not so bad, if it's free of inbreeding in the 5th or higher you're doing great but I think that'll be rare at this point (for example at first glance my girl does not have any inbreeding up to the 4th generation but as soon as you factor in the 5th and 6th generations, the picture changes). While inbreeding should be a consideration it shouldn't necessarily be the one you prioritise, but you could ask any breeder you're interested in what they think of linebreeding, what they do to outcross their pedigree etc.

Glad you liked the Krieghund dogs... I wanted to give you a glimpse into what a 'working temperament' is... as you mentioned you wanted a dog with a working temperament but there is much misconception around what that is. A well bred doberman of American or European lines should all have adequate breed temperament - Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. This is plenty for most pet owners. What makes a good working dog beyond that is the levels of drive and up to a point energy.

About the fencing... danacc's suggestion is good, you could fence off a part of the property, or tell Kansa you'd be willing to. Certainly that's part of any 'breeder interview', discussing the specifics of your home situation. Most breeders are reasonable people and will hear you out, rather than sticking solely to hardline rules (some aspects they might be more or less flexible on.
 

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One thing I'd like to add, and I mean this in the nicest possible way...I think it would be very helpful for you if you don't look for another dog to be "exactly like" Leonidas. Sometimes, when you lose a dog, you look for the next one to be so much the same that you set yourself up for disappointment (and you set the dog up for failure, too...). Because no dog will ever replace your boy, or will ever BE him...even if you had a dog that was the same lines, the same breeding....they are all individuals. If we expect them to embody too much of what another dog was, we set ourselves up to have broken hearts...we want them to be someone they aren't. It's hard on us, and it's really hard on them.

Whether you end up finding a quality Euro breeder (which can be trickier), or you find an American line breeder you like...sometimes a little different can be good for the heart. A different color, maybe. Or a little different look. So that the new pup can start fresh, be his own "dog", so to speak...you'll adore him on his own terms, I know.

I wish you the best of luck in your search, and I'm very sorry for your loss.
 

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I second MeadowCat... my grandmother was deadset on finding a red standard poodle as her old buy got older but after he passed she realised she didn't want another red, didn't want to end up comparing or 'erase' her first dog's identity. She's now open to any dark colour the litter might produce and she's open to having a female.
 

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I didn't give Elitehause a hard look but something funny. I gave that international CH dog a review in a conformation group. If that's what she's breeding run away. I warned her that that dog shouldn't be competing AT ALL. It's extremely straight front and rear. What you want to see for a dog who's going to be jumping and taking tight turns is a lot of angulation and flexibility. That dog will have a lifetime of injuries if she keeps competing with him in any working sport or agility. Even as a pet it will have a lot of injuries. Also, the top line looks like a rocky road, a nice solid, strong topline is what you want to see on a working dog. I wouldn't consider these dogs fit for working or even pet really.

Good luck in your search.
 

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UPDATE:

Thanks for everyone's recommendations. I've placed a deposit on a puppy, and it appears the stars are aligning so to speak. Kansa is a good 11 hour drive from me. Coincidentally, the DPCA National Convention is in Chicago in 2 weeks, which also happens to be my wife's and my 5 year anniversary. Doug with Kansa is going to bring a black/tan male pup to the convention.

Chicago, DPCA convention, new doberman puppy... sounds like a perfect anniversary gift to me!
 

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Greetings. Returning to the fancy after about 20 years, I am Michael Deyah'na of Project SONGBIRD Dobermann Pinschers. The current breedings in Europe nowadays surely appear to be based on my original blueprint, which actually featured two American dogs, but usually I see some falling short in form, as far as the trim and angling of the head and body the way I like to see it done. Initially, I myself will probably restart with two separate programs - possibly first a European bloodlined breeding in all it's purity (but of better quality than these common European breedings), then possibly second an American bloodlined breeding in all it's own purity. And I may merge the two if ever I see a quality pair that might be good for doings so. Great breeders such as Peggy Adamson and Mary Rodgers have done it. And I see wisdom in doing it with correct touches also. But regarding a quality European bloodlined breeding that will likely produce offspring that have the potential to become great X-factors for any program, I will likely have one born in the spring of 2018 unless I change the order of things.
 

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Leonidas passed from a blood clot that traveled to his heart. The ER said it was likely genetic. He came from Rainstorm Dobermans, and although he had a couple of health issues (throid and this bloodclot) he was a beautiful, amazing dog, despite coming from a BYB.

I've complied a list of breeders that have been recommended to me in the last 2 days:

Kansa
Aldercrest
Landgraf
Elite Haus
Von Schwartz
Von Siegruhm


Of course, all of these breeders are minimum 8 hour drive. It makes me uneasy to spend such money on never visiting the kennel or meeting any of the dogs.
DO NOT!.. go to Elite haus, she is in it for the money$$ only! and will send you a sick dog! worst person I have ever dealt business with in my life.
 

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Just an FYI, @WAstate - the post is over 2 years old.
 
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